[Deejjay]

I'm in a problematic relationship and have just started attending relationships counseling. The counsellor suggested I talk to my partner about coming up with a time out plan together that we can implement when he gets heated/angry during a discussion. I'd left the room/house a couple of times over the past year saying I'm going out for a while because I felt frightened. But when I raised this with him later on I was told I was "sensitive" and should have "anticipated he was having a hard day". Generally when he gets angry I become placatory and give in. The sample time out plan the counsellor gave me was for men who have anger issues. And I agree we need to agree on one as there are issues we really need to discuss even though he will become angry discussing this.

As an aside I'm very careful of how I communicate having been to communication and assertiveness courses. I use neutral and I language, instead of making accusations and ask what he thinks. For example when I wanted to discuss about us going out more and taking up some common interests my introduction was something like "I'd really like to talk about us going out more together, how we could do this and taking up some common interests as it would be really nice to have more fun together. What are your thoughts?" or "I'm unhappy that we don't go out much together and would like us to do more together, what are your thoughts?" then follow this up with some ideas (scheduling activities, brainstorming what we both enjoy to get some commonalties) but I get a you don't understand that I'm sore and tired from long hours at work to which I'd responded (as we've talked a lot about what he could do about this) we can select sedentary activities that we can park near and schedule them in for times you feel less tired. I've also done lots of encouraging him to talk about things that are bothering him and so forth. But it never gets to me advising my point of view and what I'd like as well then moving into problem solving in a way that's workable for both of us, I usually end up getting more rules slapped onto me.

Anyhow I'm thinking if such a benign topic creates such a reaction how would I even begin to go about talking about time out and agree on how we are going to do this. But I want to give it a go as there are issues that really do need to be discussed and resolved.

Has anyone had any experience of going about this and any suggestions.

Thanks

[hamster-bamster]

I am unclear on one thing.

Did you leave the house because you felt frightened, telling him that you were going out for awhile,

OR,

Did you leave the house telling him that you were going out because you felt frightened?

In other words, did you verbalize "I feel frightened" to him, or not?

[Deejjay]

No I just said I was going out and would be back. I felt saying I was frightened would inflame the situation. It's also hard to get many words in edgewise so I have to be brief in what I said.

[Rose76]

Do you really want to stay with a man you're afraid of? It sounds like you are going to counseling alone. I'ld see more hope for this situation, if he were going with you . . . if it were couples counseling. I doubt he's going to be too receptive to any ideas he thinks you are getting from your counselor. He's going to take it that you are talking about him to the counselor and see that as a betrayal.

If you are frightened of him, then it sounds like you don't really trust him. That's a bad situation to be in. Can't say as I've had experience directly related to this. I have seen up close how placating someone doesn't really improve things. You set that precedent, and then, over the years, you create a monster. It's like giving in to a tantrum-throwing child.

Another thing I've heard is that domestic situations that have a potential for violence aren't really well understood by professionals who have not worked extensively with women in that kind of setting. Your counselor may be underestimating how unlikely to change your partner is.

You talk about getting "rules slapped" onto you. Who is this man to be slapping rules onto you? Sounds like you are being bullied.

[hamster-bamster]

Thanks - that makes sense.

I am afraid that not all those wonderful tips and advice from assertiveness courses are realistic and easy to implement.

How do I find the exact term?

Basically, these phrases, e.g. "I'm unhappy that we don't go out much together and would like us to do more together, what are your thoughts?" , look great on paper, and might be great within exchanges that are structured, contained, and facilitated by third parties. E.g. in a group therapy or class or course setting, everyone agrees on using "I statements" and everyone obliges, and if somebody forgets, the group facilitator gently corrects that person.

But when you take those tips into a real life setting and try to use them on a person who has not been trained to use them, they may sound stilted.

Remember that you are not at work. "scheduling activities", "brainstorming", "what are your thoughts?" are words and word expressions that belong in the workplace. Really, if somebody came to me and said: "Let us search for commonalities, schedule activities and brainstorm together" AT HOME, I would be spooked by it and sort of taken by surprise. There is a reason there is a divide between home and workplace.

Let us take a look at what he said.

" I'm sore and tired from long hours at work"

This is a sentence written in normal, fluid, idiomatic plain English. No corporate speak.

So you are using the course material lingo on him and he responds in plain English.

You are speaking in two different languages. He speaks in plain English and you speak in stilted communications course language. You need an interpreter!

Please do not take it personally - I have always wondered out loud what the designers of all those communications and assertiveness courses are thinking, because you cannot implement their approaches in real life.

Basically, in a nutshell, communication courses teach communication - they do not teach how to talk. Your partner is talking and you are communicating. Once again, you need an interpreter to go between you guys.

Just do not take it personally - what I am basically saying is that the course teachers have convinced you that the approach they are teaching works, but in reality it breaks down.

Do not use those artificial sounding expressions again on him because they won't work. They will make it worse.

We can help lighten up your messages. Also, if you do not get much time to say what yo u think, you can email him. But be more casual and try to speak the same language that he speaks - plain English.

I hope I have not offended you.

Another thing is if you are frightened, then maybe you should listen to your gut instinct. When you are frightened, what does your gut instinct say?.. It does not say: "I need to communicate better, brainstorm more effectively, and engage him in sedentary activities to find commonalities and live happily ever after", does it?

It says: "RUN". So you go outside. Your going outside means that you really should just go - leave him. Go all the way.

[healingme4me]

I feel he made an excuse to not partake in meeting you halfway and having one on one couple time.

Have I heard my fair share of excuses? You bet'cha. Do those relationships last? I haven't had good luck with excuse makers.

[Deejjay]

Good food for thought Hamster. And you are right about communication courses. They usually aren't long enough and try to teach a formula for people to start off with but then the course is over before moving onto how can we put that more naturally. Terms tend to go for 8 weeks and perhaps there's not enough interest for organisations who run these courses to do an advanced one to address these issues.
Of course I've tried many differenr ways of dealing with issues in my relationship. I have just launched in to the we never go out anymore but have made suggestions. Asked him what he'd like to do, suggest activities and so forth before "communicating" about it. Plai. English suggestions would be gratefully accepted.
I was concerned about raising the time out issue as if we were able to talk and agree on that then we wouldn't have the issues we have. And yes healing I am dealing with excuses and I don't feel that how skilled or how down to earth I am when talking with my sorter thst it will work.
But unfortunately relationship counseling where I live is either focussed on communication or psych therapy style endless rehashing of family dynamics with few to now strategies taught especially what to do when talking doesn't work. The material given to me as more for men/those who want to manage their anger so they don't take their anger out in the other person but instead have strategies to maanage it. So it's isually the angry person that talks to their partner about time out and how they are going to do this. The recipient of the anger needs other state gives. It's a shame that the next session isn't for 5 weeks or so as I would go back and say that I don't think I could find a successful way of doing this.

[hamster-bamster]

Would he respond to very simple yes/no q's?

"Hey, do you want to go to ABC tomorrow night? It is OK either way, I will go by myself if you can't go."

[hvert]

Can you get him into counseling with you? I wish I had better advice for you, but I find myself in a sort of similar situation and have no idea how to resolve it. My boyfriend and I do not communicate well. He attacks my tone even when it is neutral and whatever my problem was gets lost in an argument about how I don't phrase things properly.

I have been reading books about boundaries lately and finding them interesting. Sometimes two people just want different things and no amount of talking is going to resolve that. You want to go out more. He doesn't. You both have valid reasons.

[Deejjay]

Hi Hamster he doesn't really respond to that either. I've naturally tried the invitations and suggestions, the would you like to go out/do something over the weekend/tonight, what would you like to do thing. This has all come before initiating "talks" about this as it was like what do I do when I'm unhappy about something, do I suck it up and continue to put up with it or do I talk to him about it. Boundaries as mentioned by Hvert is one answer.
The issue is as what Hvert has said we want different things and I feel I've compromised a lot but he's not willing to meet me half way or even look at solutions that work for both of us (I know that things are going towards workability these days rather than what's right or wrong))
I did advise the counsellor that the problem was that talking does not work, we want very different things and we can't come to solutions that work for both of us. Thus I said I was there to learn safe ways to deal with his moods and anger, boundaries and safe ways to leave.
Hvert yes you hit the nail on the head when you describe what happens when you talk with your partner. However skillfully you talk to them and how much you tailor it to their style it still does turn into an argument. It's because they don't want to solve the situation in a way that suits both of you. An example I have is my partner not liking my friends. Of course I don't want to have to give up my friends for him (which is what he would like but wouldn't say this outright) but I am happy to look at ideas that suit both of us including him making friends he likes and bringing into our lives and I make friends with their wives, us going out together to meet new friends together. Any course I've attended will say to "com-mun-ni-cate". So naturally I've raised this issue to find out if firstly some of my friends have done something and talk about other ways we could solve the situation. But I have to be really careful of how I word this to avoid a side tracked argument over a word. For example I have to say "my friends you don't have much in common with" rather than "my friends you don't like" as he'll latch onto the "don't like" and argue that. The first is more wordy but what can I do. I realise the crux is that he doesn't want friends (but shows the moodiness and anger of someone who is depressed and his mood has been better when he's has been involved with activities or was watching football at the local put with other guys chatting to them about the game). But does that mean because I've not been successfully in talking with him in a manner that suits him I should give up my friends (these courses will basically say "suck it up you can't win them all" when I've said what do you do when it doesn't work? Sometimes that is not an option as you end up giving up so much of what's important to yourself because "communicating" hasn't worked) Of course recently I've heard about Boundaries and that is the answer.
The other point is also good in that we do want different things. But accepting he doesn't want to go out and going out on my own (which I do do, I almost always belong to a group, start a new activity with like minded others and yes at times get the hassling over "why won't your partner come along" continuing questions and then not invited on couples things because my partner doesn't come) doesn't stop him from picking at me over using the computer, doing things differently to him (and wanting to correct me then calling me snappy when I respond this is how I do it leave me to do it my way) and it doesn't help his mood and certainly doesn't improve our relationship. Mealtimes aren't even a time to talk as he insists on having the TV on and then complains he can't "hear me" but when I say "that's because the TV is on and it's a strain for me to shout over it".
I've heard about boundaries and feel that is the way to go. In Australia relationship counselling organisations don't teach boundaries either in individual counselling or in groups. The counselling style of some organisations is talk it through until you figure it out rather than talking an education process and it's hit and miss with contacting independ counsellors who advertise so naturally people go to the organisations feeling that they would be more expert.
However I've found a boundaries course at a church, have made contact, met the facilitator and now waiting to hear about dates for next year which will be decided in December.

[hamster-bamster]

Deejjay, but then you are in a Catch 22 position, aren't you?

1) if he does not want to go out with you, then, naturally, you go out with friends

2) but at the same time he wants you to disown your friends.

So damned if you do it and damned if you don't?

[hvert]

I read three books recently:

When I Say No, I Feel Guilty
No More Christian Nice Girl
Boundaries (by Henry Cloud and John Townsend)

I am not religious at all and the last two books are for a Christian audience. I recommend all three, especially the first and last. The last book described things in a very concrete way. The first book is mostly about verbal techniques you can use with lots of example dialogues.

Just to give you an example of the level of discourse between my boyfriend and I. The other day he wiped his hands on one of my aprons. I saw him doing this and said 'That's not a rag,' in what I thought was a joking tone. I wasn't that upset that he was wiping his hands on my apron, but I didn't want him to do it. To me, it was a throwaway comment -- stop wiping your hands on my stuff.

It turned into an epic blowout where I was somehow the aggressor. I still can't really believe it. Nothing I've read in any book discusses how to deal with this.

I'm not done with it yet, but Crucial Conversations is another good one that actually does try to address dealing with irrational people.

[Deejjay]

Yes Ive read the first and the last and working through the material in the last. The first I will read again as it was a long time ago. It is so hard when one has to be careful on how to talk to a partner with a short fuse. We either think I have to improve how I say it or shut up and out up but boundaries does give us a 3rd way. Boundaries would probably help you here as it talks about hiding from danger and distancing yourself physically is a way of setting boundaries. Ideally you should say something like "I'm going out, we can talk later when things are less heated." Of course in reality it's getting the words in edgewise and like anything you say just escalates it. But then at least you have removed yourself and he may well think about his response being unreasonable.

[hamster-bamster]

Deejjay, what if you leave, quietly and without slamming the door (I realize you would not do that - just trying to be thorough ), and pin a note to the inside of the front door or put a sticky Post-It note on it with your message. Exactly what you said - "I am going out, ..." etc. but in casual hand-writing.

Then there is no possibility that your voice might tremble as you talk, giving away just how anxious and upset you are. no, nor would be possibilities for other ways in which he might interpret the tones of voice in a bad kind of way.

You know that money has no smell - well, little handwritten notes have not much smell, either. You can add a happy face at the end, or a . Or you can text him from outside with a short "went for a walk. we can talk later when both of us are calm".

[Rose76]

I've had some experience trying to be careful talking to someone with a short fuse. Here's what I learned: Don't bother being ultra careful. They're going to blow up sooner or later anyway. You will never succeed in treading likely enough on those eggshells. The kid gloves you wear when handling this person will never be soft enough. You just condition the person to expect you to tie yourself in knots trying to avoid setting them off.

Maybe it's time to throw a fit yourself. Raise your voice and say, "I'm sick of you being mad all the time. Now I'm mad. How do you frigging like it?"

[Deejjay]

Hamster you make a good suggestion regarding the note on the back of the front door. It can compliment what I've said before leaving the house ("I'm going to go out, we can talk later when things are less heated"). It would reinforce what I have said.
Rose that's a good point re behaving in the same manner. I do at times shout back (well raise my voice as I have a sott voice) saying don't speak to me like that, don't shout at me or alternatively snap back. Then am told not to be snappy - and then I point out you snap at me. But he'll deny that he gets angry or make excuses (i'm sore and tired etc etc) to which I've said I've asked you to do something about it (I've initiated lots of talks about his soreness and tiredness encouraging him to talk and trying to move it onto what can you do to address this).
Somone suggested I draw attention to the double standards which again he doesn't want to see. For example he'll sit around on the couch doing nothing then get annoyed at me going on the computer but my saying well how about we go out and do something he'll say no so it's either do I say you're sitting on the couch so my going on the computer is no different to that which will then escalate the situation o just leave it.
I think that using the leaving the house when it gets heated technique would leave to my having reduced anxiety about saying the wrong thing, standing up for myself when he has a go at me and reducing that walking on eggshells feeling.

[Rose76]

It's an option. Sometimes you do well to just remove yourself from the scene. That can force the other person to think a bit in quiet. I wouldn't want to have to leave my own house every time someone I live with decides to be impossible. There would come a point where I just wouldn't want to live in that situation. Only you can decide when that point is reached. Are you hoping that the right strategy will get your partner to change? Some people don't change.