[StuckinRut]

I would really appreciate some advice on how to handle a conversation with my toxic parents. I live about 200 miles from my parents. For the past year or so I've reduce the frequency of my phone calls. However I've still kept to a regular schedule. Last week I was "due" to call them. But I didn't, as I was busy. 1.5 hours after I would normally call them I received a phone call. Another call followed later that day. I didn't pick up as I was busy. Nor did I call back. Messages were left on my answer phone, they claimed to be "wondering how I was". That is their standard pretext. This time I did not react to it. Anyway when I call them tomorrow I fully expect to be confronted about it. I would like to respond in a neutral way rather than be drawn into an argument or apologising/justifying myself. I would be most grateful for any advice on the best way to handle this

[s4ndm4n2006]

keep it short, to the point and without emotion. Let them know in a polite way that you have a life that sometimes interferes with what is your normal schedule. Don't make a big deal out of it and if you can, cut it short if they keep trying to pull you into a confrontation.

[StuckinRut]

Thanks for your reply. I think that is great advice. Predictably when I called I was "reprimanded" for not having let them know I was o.k.. I was treated to a monologue on how terrible it was that I was distancing myself and "what had they done to deserve it". A lot of issues were conflated together as though related. At the end of the conversation I was told that "the next thing you will know is that someone has died, since you don't keep in touch". For a while, after the phone call, I felt quite sorry for them and questioned whether I was justified in progressively distancing myself. I fully understand that it is hurtful to them. A part of my still cares very deeply about them and their well being. But after thinking further about it I realised that they are very self centred. If they had any doubt about whether I was o.k. they would have been more gentle and spent sometime to genuinely enquire about me. The reality is I have problems of my own. But of course I cannot tell them about those problems, since they wouldn't understand and would simply focus on how they might be affected. No, the monologue was all about how they felt; it was a reaction to their progressive loss of control. The outpouring of heartbreak at my "callousness" was yet another manipulative attempt to bring me into line. I think the most tragic thing is that, in their senior years, my parents still have no idea who they are or how to be happy and contented in their own lives. It's taken me years to realise what is happening here and to finally begin to break free from them. I'm not going to back down now. If anything this latest outburst has strengthened my resolve. Now I wish I hadn't given them so much freedom to deliver their monologue unhindered. As usual they have spoilt my weekend by laying such a huge guilt trip on me. But I do feel that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I feel that their grip is progressively loosening with time, as I gain a different perspective on their actions.

[Bill3]

Well I will offer another way to look at this specific call.

You had an established practice of calling at a certain time. You didn't do that for this call, and you didn't call to explain. Look at it from their point of view: How would you have felt? They could reasonably have felt stood up.

Their harangues were of course unjustified, but I wonder if you could have short circuited all of that by simply apologizing for not being there for the regular call.

Now I wish I hadn't given them so much freedom to deliver their monologue unhindered.

Exactly.

As usual they have spoilt my weekend by laying such a huge guilt trip on me.

I wonder who is more responsible for disrupting the weekend: them for delivering the monologues or you for allowing the monologues.

[StuckinRut]

Hi Bill3, thanks for your reply and for sharing your thoughts. I agree, I could have avoided displeasing them by either sticking to my routine or apologizing. But on one level what I am attempting to do here is to recalibrate their expectations to be more in line with normality. Unfortunately by either apologising, explaining myself, or arguing I effectively allow them to continue to set the agenda and wield the power in our relationship. If I am to shift the balance of power back to the centre I have to disrupt the normal course of events. Unfortunately that means I have to be hard and not yield to their emotional blackmail no matter how much they try to escalate the situation.

[Bill3]

what I am attempting to do here is to recalibrate their expectations to be more in line with normality

Thanks for your response. As I see things, you can definitely do this. I propose, though, that a way to do that is simply say to them, "From now on, time allows me to call you once every two weeks rather than once a week." Or whatever the exact parameters have been and will be. On this approach, you are neither apologizing nor explaining nor arguing. You are informing.

The more fundamental issue here, though, it seems to me, is curtailing their emotional blackmail as it happens. Even if you were to speak with them as little as let's say once per year, that one time is going to be miserable for you if you allow them untrammeled freedom to berate you. My thought, then, is to work on finding ways to end or severely limit conversations that have become abusive. Don't listen to the endless monologue.

[Hexagram]

Bill3, once again with the word. He's my favorite Magnate.

[s4ndm4n2006]

Originally Posted by StuckinRut

Thanks for your reply. I think that is great advice. Predictably when I called I was "reprimanded" for not having let them know I was o.k.. I was treated to a monologue on how terrible it was that I was distancing myself and "what had they done to deserve it". A lot of issues were conflated together as though related. At the end of the conversation I was told that "the next thing you will know is that someone has died, since you don't keep in touch". For a while, after the phone call, I felt quite sorry for them and questioned whether I was justified in progressively distancing myself. I fully understand that it is hurtful to them. A part of my still cares very deeply about them and their well being. But after thinking further about it I realised that they are very self centred. If they had any doubt about whether I was o.k. they would have been more gentle and spent sometime to genuinely enquire about me. The reality is I have problems of my own. But of course I cannot tell them about those problems, since they wouldn't understand and would simply focus on how they might be affected. No, the monologue was all about how they felt; it was a reaction to their progressive loss of control. The outpouring of heartbreak at my "callousness" was yet another manipulative attempt to bring me into line. I think the most tragic thing is that, in their senior years, my parents still have no idea who they are or how to be happy and contented in their own lives. It's taken me years to realise what is happening here and to finally begin to break free from them. I'm not going to back down now. If anything this latest outburst has strengthened my resolve. Now I wish I hadn't given them so much freedom to deliver their monologue unhindered. As usual they have spoilt my weekend by laying such a huge guilt trip on me. But I do feel that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I feel that their grip is progressively loosening with time, as I gain a different perspective on their actions.

Great analysis of this. I am glad that you've had some light shed on the reality of what their behavior was based on, which is not YOUR well being but their feelings... feelings which, I am not sure are at all anything but selfish really. The thrive on making others (or at least you) feel guilty in order to manipulate and that is all I see in what they've said to you. I am glad that you have strengthened resolve.

It can improve and they can change, I am sure, but it will not be from you putting up with this behavior but making a stand for your own independence, your self worth, your feelings to them.

[eskielover]

What I do when someone calls (my parents are no longer alive) when I'm busy & I don't have time to talk....I usually end up sending them a quick text saying "Hey, busy right now, don't have time to talk.....will get back with you as soon as I can"....that way they know you are ok, they know you are too busy to talk & you don't give them anything to hassle you about.

Honestly I'm really bad with my cell phone (I live alone) & there are times when I leave it in my truck or down stairs. I am usually really busy doing other things & not thinking about the phone until I realize just how quiet it's been & they I go on a search for my phone & usually find it with a dead battery on top of being far away from where I was anyway.

I did that last weekend. Our organist at church was trying to get in touch with me on Saturday to let me know that I needed to play piano for church the next day & give me the hymns to play. I didn't respond to her calls.....nor her texts all day Saturday....I didn't even realize my phone was MIA until Sunday morning & I changed the battery. A few minutes later another friend drove up to see if I was ok & it was the normal time we would drive to church anyway. Stupid phone didn't even give me any of the messages or any voice mails.....Our organist thought I might be mad at her for giving me such short notice......I don't get mad an anyone for anything at least not that trivial.....so I texted her to let her know that all was ok & what happened. I am forever doing that.....but living alone, people worry about whether I'm ok or not also or if I've been injured (I own a huge home with lots of stairs & 3 dogs that are always trying to trip me). I honestly appreciate that they do care about how I am. I had another friend try to call me when my phone actually did die (problems with the charger connection & I couldn't get my phone to charge)....she actually called a neighbor who came down to check on me to see if I was ok). So when I am busy & I do have my phone with me, I make sure I text back to their call or voice mail to let them know I'm just busy that day or at that moment & will get back with them as soon as I can....saves everyone a lot of hassle & it also saves anyone getting angry (thank heavens my friends aren't like family can be at times)

[unaluna]

I dont know where it is written that the price of being born is you have to take a phone call from your mother every sunday morning at ten.

Also, not taking their phone calls does NOT make then die sooner. If only! if anything, i think they hang on longer just for spite.

I recommend telling them the truth - these phone calls just now are interfering with you making your way in the world. You will contact them to make arrangements for the next holiday. Then start screening your calls.

[Bethany Rosselit]

Ask a lot of questions, keeping them open-ended, so that your parents have a chance to look at why they are saying what they do. Good job staying neutral!

[hvert]

I have been trying to break free of a smothering parent, so I really empathize with the back and forth guilt/strengthened resolve feelings. I *still* have that, even though I started to break free ten years ago (already ten years too late!).

It's really sort of mind blowing. If you miss a phone call from your parents and then they spend the next call lecturing you, they think you are going to be quicker to call them the next time you miss a call??? If they do that again, maybe you could interrupt with "When you berate me like this, it makes me not want to call you at all," and then hang up if they don't stop.

Also, it's okay to shift the power all the way back to you, not to the center. I remember some of your other threads. Your parents do not behave reasonably. It's okay for you to set whatever limits make you happy and stick with them, even if that means you only talk to your parents once every three months or not at all. I had to go 100% no contact for a bit in order to get to a place where I could resist the boundary incursions. For me, the essential thing was just remembering that it is okay, that what I want is normal and what my parent wants is not healthy.

How often did your parents talk to their parents?

[s4ndm4n2006]

Originally Posted by hankster

I dont know where it is written that the price of being born is you have to take a phone call from your mother every sunday morning at ten.

Also, not taking their phone calls does NOT make then die sooner. If only! if anything, i think they hang on longer just for spite.

I recommend telling them the truth - these phone calls just now are interfering with you making your way in the world. You will contact them to make arrangements for the next holiday. Then start screening your calls.

Agreed about the idea that there is a rule for how often and when you call extended family or parents, but in this case I think it was partially the OP's fault that they expected that. I believe that's already been addressed, but I'd say that a change of "rules" is in order.

OP: I thin that they need to understand that at this point, having a scheduled time/day for phone calls is unrealistic at best and if there is to be any kind of schedule, it should be flexible as you do not always know what the day will bring. Obviously you cannot require them to be flexible, only stand on your rule. My suggestion would be if you have to say a date and time, say "when my schedule allows" and add that to it. If not a schedule just let them know that you will keep in touch when you are willing and able to do so. Leave it at that. Do not bend and just let them learn to accept it. If you are strong on this, they will spit and pout about it at first but continuing to stand on this, they will eventually give up and accept or at least grumble quietly to themselves instead. I think this is key to your establishing your independence!

[StuckinRut]

Thanks so much to everyone for the great advice and support.

To some extend I think that I know the theory of what I need to do. But actually doing it is another thing entirely. My parents are masters at changing tactics and they work together with other family members. I'm programmed, by my up brining to avoid conflict and I still find it really stressful to stand up to them. Also, they are good at making me feel like I'm the one who is getting things out of proportion, not them. So, it's really helpful to get a second opinion along with valuable advice. The one area where I agreed with my parents is that I could have texted them back simply to let them know that I was o.k.. But, as always in this relationship, I was conflicted; caught between two problem. If I did text, then I would again allowing them to pull my strings and respond whenever they desire. There will be times, in the future, when I can neither call them nor text to say I'm o.k.. In any case if wasn't o.k. what are they going to do about it from 200 miles away and not knowing in what way I'm not o.k.? The other way in which I feel conflicted is that I really hate to inflict pain on someone. Guess that's another product of my parenting. It was so hard to hear my parents tell me that they feel I don't care about them and how we used to be close but not any more. I'm not made of stone. This kind of thing would upset anyone. When I was very young my childhood was quite idyllic and my parents did do a huge amount for me. I am grateful to them for that. It's so hard. I hate them for making me take such extreme action. But I've tried to confront my parents many times about their problems and they never accept that there is any truth in what I say.

I agree, to some extend it's my fault they they expect me to call at periodic intervals and even at a specific time of day. I will start to vary the dates and times so it becomes more random. That should do a lot to address the expectation. During this particular phone call I mentioned that I called them when I am free. Again that caused displeasure. I was informed by my mother that "I was her son". So I take that to imply I apparently have certain obligations to discharge, and that those obligations hold good whether or not I am verbally abused when I do call. My mother contacts her mum on a daily basis and they do many things together. My father, on the other hand, rarely contacted his parents. In my view both sets of grandparents are/were toxic. I think, as pointed out by several people, I am giving my parents far too much scope to talk and set the agenda for our conversations. It doesn't help that I now have very little to share with them, because most topics are now off limits for one reason or another. But non the less I will try to shake things up next time. I also like the idea of asking them lots of questions, keeping them on their toes and setting the pace and direction of the conversation rather than letting them direct things. I think it's right. I don't could actually shift the balance of power not just to the centre but to favour me. After all they own me some back dated payments of power, lol. The wicked side of me toys with the idea of turning the tables on them. For years my farther has undervalued and under minded my opinions and beliefs. Perhaps I should take something that I know he approves of and make the odd derogatory comment about it. Or perhaps I should try to put doubts into his mind about something that I know he cares about. Maybe it would be fun. After all my parents have derived well over 30 years of entertainment from doing this to me. Maybe it's my time for me to have a go now. I used to think that they were victims of their own parents and that they really couldn't help their own actions. But now I think differently. They can see what effect they are having, after all they monitor my reaction and manipulate me until they obtain the effect they are hoping for. While I'm trying desperately not to propagate this negative behaviour any further, to friends, colleagues, etc.. They indulge themselves in order to control their narrow little world to service their own ends. Their comment about someone dying was pritty typical of the kind of thing I had to put up with when I lived with them. I guess it summarises also just how responsible they think I am for their lives, that a phone call could make the difference between life or death.

[s4ndm4n2006]

your mother's statement that you are her son.. really bothers me, as if to imply because as her son you have no rights to choose your way of dealing with them and like you say are obligated regardless of what abuse you might have to endure. Well flip the tables on that one. yes you are her son and as such should be treated as such and in most environments that are healthy, the children are treated as their own people, not subordinates in some authoritarian environment. You're not an object to be manipulated, controlled nor an employee, subordinate or underling to be ordered around, and mistreated. personally, I would have the inclination to point this out to them but I understand if that's not something you feel comfortable doing.

[StuckinRut]

Hi s4ndm4n2006, thanks a lot for all your help. It is very much appreciated. Yes, I agree with you; it is a strange and worrying statement. I hadn't considered the flip side, that's a very helpful perspective. It's true I wouldn't be comfortable to point that out. But I'm quite prepared to confront them and have done so on many occasions. However my experience is that it is not possible to have a calm and rational disagreement with my parents. Instead things rapidly turn into a one sided argument. Also they appear to be incapable of accepting that they could have any faults. So now I feel it is better to instead deprive them of their power by not reacting, even slightly, to their provocations.

[s4ndm4n2006]

Originally Posted by StuckinRut

Hi s4ndm4n2006, thanks a lot for all your help. It is very much appreciated. Yes, I agree with you; it is a strange and worrying statement. I hadn't considered the flip side, that's a very helpful perspective. It's true I wouldn't be comfortable to point that out. But I'm quite prepared to confront them and have done so on many occasions. However my experience is that it is not possible to have a calm and rational disagreement with my parents. Instead things rapidly turn into a one sided argument. Also they appear to be incapable of accepting that they could have any faults. So now I feel it is better to instead deprive them of their power by not reacting, even slightly, to their provocations.

your approach is entirely understandable and possibly just as effective. another suggestion is that you continue to find your independence and ability to be assertive when necessary and in time I believe you'll be in a place where you'll be able to truly stand up for yourself. practice with less confrontational people and in your own life

[Rose76]

You are within your rights. The fact that they gave you such a hard time, shows me that you need to do this more often. That's how you condition them to a new standard of what is normal. Try to enjoy your weekend. Keep your resolve. They are lucky you are as caring as you are, but their behavior needs to be curbed.

This forum is gets lots of threads started by people with parents like that who never figured out how to deal with it properly. I'm glad that you do know how.

[StuckinRut]

Thanks so much for these replies. s4ndm4n2006: I do need to work more on my assertiveness, it causes a lot of problems elsewhere in my life too (e.g. work and romantic relationships). Rose76: thanks very much for your supportive comments. I really appreciate it. I think the really valuable replies to this thread and others are helping to me form a clearer view of my parents behaviour. Whatever you grow up with as a child becomes your definition of normality. It takes a lot of time to come to terms with the idea that whilst this might be normal, to you, it is not healthy.

[s4ndm4n2006]

considering what you grow up with feeling normal, I know all too well what you mean. Although after leaving home in my 20s first helped me to start seeing the unhealthiness and dysfunction of my family life growing up, it was not until I moved 3,000 miles away and really became isolated enough from them to fully see the extent of that dysfunction and each role that my siblings and parents played in a lot of my warped views in life. I have since grown quite a bit from that and it's refreshing to see someone else starting on the same journey that I've been on for quite some time now. Good luck with that and I wish you well. If you need to talk more privately, just friend me on pc and you can PM me.