In reflecting the last week on relationships, mainly romantic but also heavily on all of the rest of my interpersonal ones, it occurs to me that I am clueless. I basically raised myself. This is no exaggeration. After being abandoned at 15 by a neglectful mother who was wrapped up in her own severe mental illness enough not to be an adequate physical provider for a child let alone an emotional or spiritual one, I went into foster care. And our foster parents, while they weren't abusive, and they provided for our physical needs adequately (though not abundantly), were not parents in the emotional or spiritual sense. They were caretakers/guardians. I turned out pretty well, considering, and I owe it to the fact that I was heavily involved in extracurriculars in high school (music, theater, advanced placement classes) and had a small but strong group of friends through these activities.

As an adult, I don't have the same safety net of people I did in high school. I'm not involved in the same things because time and my direction in life doesn't allow for it. (Don't ask why I'm not involved in music; it was actually my first major. It isn't practical for me to do it, I'm pretty busy with the career I've chosen, and there aren't that many outlets for an amateur musician such as myself besides the fact that it's an expensive and time-consuming hobby.) The point is, not that I'm wallowing in my past, but because of how I grew up, I don't have much emotional intelligence at all. I have good intentions, am someone who thinks she's doing right by people, but will then look back on my interactions and think, "Why did I say that? It came off so nasty!" It can be that I mean something in a joking, witty way and I don't have enough finesse to pull it off so it sounds mean. Or I just don't know how to be easy around people. Or I don't know how not to over-communicate, or I completely come off too standoffish and unfriendly. Like, I think people will just communicate what they need/want/don't want with me (because that's what I tend to do) when reality is that they are more likely to just walk away from and never speak to me again.

I wonder if I will always be this way? I don't know if this is something which can be fixed by reading books, or going to counseling. As I always say, years and years of therapy has barely made a dent in things for me. It's like we work on things, but there is a disconnect in what they're trying to help me figure out and what I actually can perceive and have stick in my brain and put into practice. Like, if you didn't learn those things and have them imprinted when your brain was still plastic (as a little child), maybe you don't have the capacity to comprehend them?

What are some of your thoughts?

[divine1966]

Well you clearly have emotional intelligence as you show it in your posts quite often. It just might not come easy to you and require more work than for some other people but it is there. Also if you come across nasty but realized it later then just apologize to people and explain what's going on. I apologize to people a lot as I tend to be rather too blunt at times. People typically are understanding

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Originally Posted by divine1966

Well you clearly have emotional intelligence as you show it in your posts quite often. It just might not come easy to you and require more work than for some other people but it is there. Also if you come across nasty but realized it later then just apologize to people and explain what's going on. I apologize to people a lot as I tend to be rather too blunt at times. People typically are understanding

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I do apologize to people, but people only put up with so much. What I have typically experienced (QUITE often) is that, when they get fed up with me, they are just gone. No explanation, nothing. My best friend from school, I think, is doing this. She just suddenly stopped responding to my texts. I sent her one a few days ago apologizing for being an azz and telling her that I realized I was being selfish in my demands for her time. Nothing. Not even a "Yes, you're right. I need space." Nothing. She still has me as a friend on FB, and I'm thinking I should just give her space. What angers me is that I've had at least 5 people do this to me. Probably more. I know I can be overwhelming when I spiral. And I'm not pushing blame onto the other person for my actions. However...I do think it's crappy to just fall off the face of the earth on a friend, especially when you know they have abandonment issues. When someone is overstepping bounds on me, I state my boundaries plainly and without malice, and ask for the space I need. I don't know if it's just a coincidence, and because I tend to get into friendships with the same types of personalities (who don't do conflict), or if I'm just that bad. I feel like a shytti person because of it, though.

PS Kind of off topic, but I ordered a book on radical self love/acceptance today. I realized that I am pretty hard on myself and, until I actually accept myself (and maybe even start radically accepting that things don't always go my way), I'm not going to have happiness in my life. I will definitely work on this with my T. I want to stop being negative and looking at the world though a gray fog, but I don't really know what this looks like. People think I'm super negative, and honestly I don't see my viewpoint as negative. For me, this is just reality. I have a friend who says that when things go wrong I "hardcore focus on the negative," and I can see that. But my issue with her is that, to me, her version of happy-go-lucky optimism is delusional. (I'm not going to get into it, but it is...some of it has landed her in a partial hospitalization program.) So what's better? Mentally preparing yourself and only making a hard landing when reality hits, but people think you're kind of a drag, or deluding yourself and emotionally crashing and burning when reality hits, but everyone thinks you're a GD blast? Idk.

[Xaldin]

I'm pretty much the exact same way. Although I tend to focus more on the being a "smart-***" route. I think it's just because if you have dealt with so much negative, you tend to project it quite a bit.
I tend to have a much...darker... perspective with life. The whole "Im not a pessimist, I'm a realist" attitude. I tend to find people who are overly optimistic well.. annoying. Yet I feel I don't do it to be mean, it's just a result of cause and effect. Again, I try to put it as smart *** sarcasm than straight bluntness so I don't come off as a jerk. Kind of a House attitude.

We try to downplay things because it probably helps our world outlook in our minds. Because if thing's go well for others but not ourselves... we obviously feel bad about it. It can also lead to feelings of envy and/or jealousy. It's something I still deal with.

Deep down we just want the world to cut US a break for a change.

Another thing to point out is we try to keep ourselves level... sort of restrain from elevating our mood to an extent. The higher the rise of good feeling... the further the drop we can experience of bad.

Originally Posted by Xaldin

I'm pretty much the exact same way. Although I tend to focus more on the being a "smart-***" route. I think it's just because if you have dealt with so much negative, you tend to project it quite a bit.
I tend to have a much...darker... perspective with life. The whole "Im not a pessimist, I'm a realist" attitude. I tend to find people who are overly optimistic well.. annoying. Yet I feel I don't do it to be mean, it's just a result of cause and effect. Again, I try to put it as smart *** sarcasm than straight bluntness so I don't come off as a jerk. Kind of a House attitude.

We try to downplay things because it probably helps our world outlook in our minds. Because if thing's go well for others but not ourselves... we obviously feel bad about it. It can also lead to feelings of envy and/or jealousy. It's something I still deal with.

Deep down we just want the world to cut US a break for a change.

Another thing to point out is we try to keep ourselves level... sort of restrain from elevating our mood to an extent. The higher the rise of good feeling... the further the drop we can experience of bad.

No, I'm the same exact way! House-esque describes me perfectly. If you don't mind my asking, are you male or female? Because from your username, I assume you are male. I feel the smart arseness is generally more accepted from males than it is from females, especially by other females. My male colleagues can get away with a lot more of the wry sense of humor, sarcasm, dry wit, smart-azzedness and "realism" than I can for SURE. That's not an indictment against men, I think it's just societal conditioning. Especially in the area I live. My area is slowly inching toward being more progressive but it's historically been a conservative part of the state. When I moved here 20 years ago, my mouth got me into trouble almost daily.

Argh, sorry Xaldin! Of course you are male. I remember replying to your thread a few days ago! Sorry, it's 4am here, and I'm not thinking clearly. I had a momentary memory lapse.

[divine1966]

If you tend to be negative it would explain why people avoid you. I am not saying it's the right thing of them to do but negative attitude is not very pleasant to be around. Unless one most stick around ( like immediate family) people will limit interactions with negative people.

As about men I had tendency to get attracted to negative men ( no secret why as my dad is negative), then getting fed up with their negativity and other bs and leave them , my goal was to stop getting attracted to them to begin with, luckily I broke the pattern.

I don't think that being optimistic is somehow would make landing harder should things go sour. I experienced many hardships in life yet I always do just fine at the end and I think it's precisely because I focus on the positive, I really don't see how focusing on negative is helpful in hardships. Actually negative people crash pretty hard in my experience. Much harder than those who see the world is generally a happy place.

I do have a friend who is very negative, we work together but do things outside of work. She knows she is negative and she kind of relies on me to give her reality check ( we laugh about it as she makes me promise to keep her in check lol). We are good friends and I can handle her but no way I'd want to be with her more than certain amount of time. She actually has another friend who is just like her. We spend time together all three ( have mutual hobby). I think they keep me around to elevate their moods. They are nice people and I like them a lot or I would not spend any time with them but negativity is draining. At the end of the day I am glad i don't have to live with any of them and can go home.

Would you t work with you on developing more positive views on life? Or you think it's ingrained?

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In my experience, if you made a mistake that set someone off, and even if you apologized, they would never be the same again, if they accept your apology. I'm a little impulsive, and even though my intentions are good in my calculations, my behaviors weigh much more to others.

It's natural to be negative. Our minds are designed to be negative. Actually, depressed people have more accurate depiction of reality. It's that the non depressed people who have optimism bias. I'm negative in nature, but I'm trying to modulate my thoughts and behaviors to be positive as much as I can, because even though optimism is a bias, it also can be a self-fulfilling prophecy for a better life.

By the way, our brains are plastic even as adults. There is a book called The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science by Norman Doidge that explains this.

[divine1966]

Why do you think it's natural to be negative?

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It's the way our brains were evolved. We've lived in large societies only for 5000 years, when we domesticated animals and planted foods. We've been around for at least 120000 years. The world we lived in most of the time was much different and more dangerous that today's, in which negativity was advantageous. The world has changed, but our brains haven't.

Originally Posted by divine1966

If you tend to be negative it would explain why people avoid you. I am not saying it's the right thing of them to do but negative attitude is not very pleasant to be around. Unless one most stick around ( like immediate family) people will limit interactions with negative people.

As about men I had tendency to get attracted to negative men ( no secret why as my dad is negative), then getting fed up with their negativity and other bs and leave them , my goal was to stop getting attracted to them to begin with, luckily I broke the pattern.

I don't think that being optimistic is somehow would make landing harder should things go sour. I experienced many hardships in life yet I always do just fine at the end and I think it's precisely because I focus on the positive, I really don't see how focusing on negative is helpful in hardships. Actually negative people crash pretty hard in my experience. Much harder than those who see the world is generally a happy place.

I do have a friend who is very negative, we work together but do things outside of work. She knows she is negative and she kind of relies on me to give her reality check ( we laugh about it as she makes me promise to keep her in check lol). We are good friends and I can handle her but no way I'd want to be with her more than certain amount of time. She actually has another friend who is just like her. We spend time together all three ( have mutual hobby). I think they keep me around to elevate their moods. They are nice people and I like them a lot or I would not spend any time with them but negativity is draining. At the end of the day I am glad i don't have to live with any of them and can go home.

Would you t work with you on developing more positive views on life? Or you think it's ingrained?

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I'm sorry, but I feel like I am repeating myself and I feel frustrated.

As I stated, my friend who is almost delusionally optimistic landed herself in a partial hospitalization program when her thing went sour. I do think that was a rather hard landing, rougher than spiraling and feeling sad for a few days. It resulted in almost three weeks off of work and damn near losing her job. Over a bad choice with a guy. I used the word "realistic," not negative. But you may use whatever word you choose. That is the point though; in my POV it isn't negativity, it's being realistic. For example, if all my friends wanted to go to the beach on Thursday and I noticed that there was a 90% chance of thunderstorms, I would say "That sounds fun, but unfortunately there is a 90% chance of thunderstorms. Maybe we should go to the movies this time instead?" I would be berated for "focusing too much on the negative," when in reality, realistically, it's probably going to be crappy outside. I don't want to pack up, drive all the way to the beach only to get rained on. See the difference between being realistic, being negative, and my POV on delusional optimism? It's the same way when I am looking out for myself in relationships: "Oh, you should go out with that guy! Give him a chance!" Me: "But the last time I saw these red flags, it didn't end well for me. Maybe I should just cancel our first date? I don't have a good feeling about this." Them: "Jeez, you have such a bad attitude. You're never going to find anyone with a bad attitude like that!" And I move on ahead because I feel ashamed of my bad attitude and "negativity," and I slam right into a brick wall, finding out that I was right all along. I can't even tell you how many times this has happened, not that I blame other people; I blame myself for moving forward in spite of what my gut told me to be true.

I think I will choose to trust my intuition, and continue to be realistic. If that makes me "negative," if that makes people not want to hang out with me, fine. But honestly, I think I may be hanging out with the wrong people because I'd rather hang out with people who, one, have some common sense and two, trust me to have my own best interests in mind! Sorry, but there are just certain aspects of my persona that aren't going to change because they aren't a result of mental illness or upbringing; they're just who I am. If my friends don't trust me to choose what's best for myself and shame those choices for being negative, then I suppose I shouldn't be on here complaining about having no friends (edit: I have friends) because I'm better off.

PS My mood is, actually, usually elevated. I am, on the whole, happy and love my life. This is another bias that annoys me. I feel like I just can't be happy enough for other people.

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

It's the way our brains were evolved. We've lived in large societies only for 5000 years, when we domesticated animals and planted foods. We've been around for at least 120000 years. The world we lived in most of the time was much different and more dangerous that today's, in which negativity was advantageous. The world has changed, but our brains haven't.

Add to this...

I have seen some ugly shyt in my days. I'm not even talking about how I grew up or how my family treated me, that's just whatever. I'm talking about, in the course of a rough upbringing (we were homeless on and off throughout my childhood), I've seen how humans can treat each other, how supposedly moral people treat a homeless child. People aren't perfect, and everyone is different...however...though I always have hope that people will be kind to me, and that I will find friendship, companionship, and eventually love, I know how unkind people can be, because I've seen it. I know that this is something which needs healing but I'm not sure how that will be accomplished. The people who think I am negative don't know this facet of my life; I don't tell anyone about being homeless. Literally no one outside my family, my T, and now you guys, knows this about me.

While I do have hope and optimism--way way way more than I'm given credit for--other people and I aren't looking at life from the same perspective.

I hear what you're saying. Experiences definitely can reinforce our negative thinking. I consider myself realistic in the sense that I weigh things more than others, and decide based on the most probable outcome given my current state, but guess what? I'm the least to enjoy life this way. Is it because I'm realistic? Probably, because I'm not taking the risks to challenge my thoughts and change my current state. Eventually, we cannot know for sure how things will play out, and how that could change us. For example, I suffer from social anxiety, so, what is the most probable outcome in a social situation? It would be that I would be nervous and anxious. So, I decide most of the time to avoid social settings. Is that realistic? I think so, given my current state of social phobia. Is being realistic helpful for me? I don't think so, because it contributes to my isolation, loneliness, and eventually depression. Getting out of your comfort zone is the hardest thing to do.

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

I hear what you're saying. Experiences definitely can reinforce our negative thinking. I consider myself realistic in the sense that I weigh things more than others, and decide based on the most probable outcome given my current state, but guess what? I'm the least to enjoy life this way. Is it because I'm realistic? Probably, because I'm not taking the risks to challenge my thoughts and change my current state. Eventually, we cannot know for sure how things will play out, and how that could change us. For example, I suffer from social anxiety, so, what is the most probable outcome in a social situation? It would be that I would be nervous and anxious. So, I decide most of the time to avoid social settings. Is that realistic? I think so, given my current state of social phobia. Is being realistic helpful for me? I don't think so, because it contributes to my isolation, loneliness, and eventually depression. Getting out of your comfort zone is the hardest thing to do.

I am working on getting out of my comfort zone little by little. Dating is on huge step out. Going out with Meetup groups is another, because it is just easier for me to sit at home and feel safe, secure, and of course isolated, than it is to go out and meet potential new friends but also encounter new and uncomfortable situations. As I talk to more people it becomes less and less scary to, you know, talk to more people.

[Rose76]

All the books and therapy in the world won't teach you what you need to learn. What you are doing is like someone trying to learn how to ride a bicycle by reading about it and discussing it. I know because I tried to therapy myself out of social deficits. It can't be done - not that way.

You're right: this deficit in finesse that you describe is a result of how you grew up. It can probably never be totally gotten rid of. Hope, for you, lies in striving to find a basis to be accepted, despite your deficits. People with severe social deficits have achieved that. You have intelligence and sensitivity. You have to place yourself in places where your assets may be accepted as compensation for your deficits. You have to be in contact with others who are also "special," as you are special.

You're never going to be everyone's cup-of-tea. Life for you may never be "normal." You'll just have to work around that. You may have to decide to become less apologetic for being how you are. It may be that only people with unusual insight will truly value you. These people exist and it will be up to you to find them. It may be that life can be satisfying to you, if you are willing to work very hard - to make the most of your aptitudes, which I suspect are considerable. That's not fair. But it may be the reality that you have to accept.

It's not true that you won't ever learn to be more interpersonally effective, but the lessons may have to be learned through painful trial and error. I would say: Spend a little less time with the self-help books and the one-on-one counseling, and get out there and compete. Dive into life and get better at the things you have talent for. You'll grow emotionally as well. Learning to ride the bike may mean you have to be willing to fall off trying.

[divine1966]

Good job getting out there and doing it!

I have a feeling your poor friend ended up so sick and in the hospital over a guy due to more issues than just being positive. It's rather extreme and unfortunate what happened to her but I don't think you can say that's how positive people end up. That's rather extreme reaction. And is just this individual person. I've never met people who react this way and I know many people in many different situations. It is not common thing

I don't think trusting your guts is being negative. I personally wouldn't share with others that I am going on a date. I don't want people to advice me. In fact I never share unless I am seriously involved. I don't want to be influenced in my decisions. So ignore others. Do what feels right

I agree with Rose that self help books and therapy although are helpful can't compete with real life. Good luck!!!

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Originally Posted by Rose76

You're never going to be everyone's cup-of-tea. Life for you may never be "normal." You'll just have to work around that. You may have to decide to become less apologetic for being how you are. It may be that only people with unusual insight will truly value you. These people exist and it will be up to you to find them. It may be that life can be satisfying to you, if you are willing to work very hard - to make the most of your aptitudes, which I suspect are considerable. That's not fair. But it may be the reality that you have to accept.

I have definitely come to this conclusion, and am mostly comfortable with it. It is a recent revelation to me, but I know that my personality is unique (when I test, I come up as an INTJ/ISTJ every time, and this is what describes me best). I don't want to fit in with everyone, but I think it frustrates me when I feel like people try to bend me to fit their expectations (which some people are wont to do, we all do it, I do it) but when I don't fit those expectations try to make me feel ashamed, like it is my fault and I am defective because of my background. When more likely I'm acting within the (acceptable and functional) bounds of my personality, just not within the bounds of their expectations. If that makes sense.

I actually don't do self-help books at all. I find them to be too insipid most of the time, and I can only think of two off the top of my head that I've read in the last 10 years. However, I downloaded one this week on radical acceptance (radical self-love, radical self-acceptance, radical forgiveness), and I think that is appropriate for my life. I think a lot of people struggling with depression and/or anxiety, issues of self-worth, and especially the shame/guilt spiral which is probably the root of all of my problems can benefit from understanding this concept...and I don't. I have come to accept that I have a big problem with ineffective coping--I mainly use screen time (movies, TV, internet, etc), food, alcohol, shopping--to cope with negative emotions. I also withdraw and isolate as a means to deal with the fact that I find relationships with other people too painful/stressful to deal with. I've been good at saying, "Oh, well, I like being on my own and doing my own thing." And I do! But at the same time, I haven't treated myself very well in that alone time, whether it be that I don't eat well (I tend to eat a lot of processed food and I'm learning to switch to eating cleanly as a way to both be healthier and also to value and be kind to myself), that I drink too much, or whatever. Anyway, lol...point is that self-help books aren't all bad, and therapy for someone like me, while it isn't going to solve all of my problems, is probably necessary for maintenance.

Also, in all of that rambling paragraph, I should have said that I realized that while I was doing all of this ineffective coping, I was probably not putting as much into my healing as I thought I had been. I just had a therapy session today where we discussed that I was fed up with status quo and wanted to be better about that. If only to be happier in my own mind.

Originally Posted by divine1966

Good job getting out there and doing it!

I have a feeling your poor friend ended up so sick and in the hospital over a guy due to more issues than just being positive. It's rather extreme and unfortunate what happened to her but I don't think you can say that's how positive people end up. That's rather extreme reaction. And is just this individual person. I've never met people who react this way and I know many people in many different situations. It is not common thing

I don't think trusting your guts is being negative. I personally wouldn't share with others that I am going on a date. I don't want people to advice me. In fact I never share unless I am seriously involved. I don't want to be influenced in my decisions. So ignore others. Do what feels right

I agree with Rose that self help books and therapy although are helpful can't compete with real life. Good luck!!!

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I didn't say she ended up there simply from being positive. I said she was delusionally positive. As in she was delusional. She still is...it is pretty universally recognized. There is a difference. So someone who is delusional comparing her "positivity" to my attitude/reactions to situations and calling me negative doesn't sit well with me.

This is why I said I didn't feel I was being heard by you, and this is also why I think that it's unfair when some people separate a person's reactions into starkly positive and negative...because that isn't real life. People, like life, are not black and white.

[divine1966]

Well it's hard to figure out what's going on. You said people consider you super negative and at least 5 people stopped communicating with you. Yet you say that you don't think you are negative or that being negative might be better strategy as it makes you prepared better. So you think these people who perceive you certain way are incorrect in their perception?

don't know if you are negative or how you come across as I don't know you in real life but do you not agree with people and their assessments of you in real life? ( I wouldn't use that particular girls assessment though as if she is delusional her perception of life might be off and it's not fair example as she is not well ). But what about others?

I am just confused on the whole thing. You said you wanted to be less negative and want to have better relationship with people. But then you say that you don't think you really are negative or thats better to be this way. If nothing needs to be adjusted on your part then do you think other people need to change how they are with you? Or should you choose other people to be friends with? What do you think needs to be changed if it is not you?

I only mentioned the whole idea of negative versus positive because you said you wanted to learn to be less negative and people have issue with you. I wouldn't bring up the topic otherwise.

Wish you the best!


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