[TooManyDays]

Hello, All. This is my first ever post. It may be my last, because my problems might be too difficult to unravel in this format, but I hope someone could offer something to give me insight or a new avenue of thought to pursue.

To distill this into its simplest form, I woke up from my self hate and realized I married someone based on my belief that nobody else would ever love me.

My story is this:

I'm a married thirty-five year old man. I've struggled with self loathing and depression most of my life. In my adolescence I found it impossible to be normal or connect with people other than a few close friends. I was severely insecure and inadequate with girls. Girls with whom I was infatuated invariably wanted nothing to do with me, and I learned to avoid them so I wouldn't be creepy or ashamed of myself. This made my feelings of inadequacy even worse. It affected my ability to see myself as a viable man and made it impossible for me to believe a woman could be attracted to me. Women may have been attracted to me, but I couldn't recognize it. I couldn't allow myself to believe it.

Here's my real dilemma at this point. I married a woman who wanted me; perhaps the only woman who has ever wanted me, but certainly the only woman I was sure wanted me. This was possibly a huge mistake. I've done an awful lot of work improving myself both psychologically and physically. I'm healthier than I've ever been. Seeing things more clearly has allowed me to stop the cycle of horrible negative reinforcement. I now realize I'm not ugly or disgusting. I'm not inadequate or unlovable. I'm at least average in appearance, and I'm smart, creative, passionate, thoughtful, and kind. I still don't know if average is good enough for the kind of love I desire, but my newfound self worth has made me much less worried about rejection or mutual attraction. I'm starting to really consider what I want instead of just trying to make other people happy or to make them love me. My self hate has been replaced by anxiety. I'm stuck in an unfulfilling marriage, but it's really not bad enough to justify leaving. We have a young child and many years of history and memories. I feel like I've finally found my authentic self, but I'm unable to pursue a fulfilling relationship.

I guess my main question is, does passionate love really exist? I suppose that's a silly question. Of course it exists. But could it exist for me? I've never been mutually infatuated. I've known a few women in my life who completely captured me. It's tough to say how objectively attractive they were, but obviously my feelings for them made them very beautiful to me. I don't think anyone has ever felt this way about me. Perhaps you need to be a very special person to inspire that kind of admiration? If that's the case, and every attraction is a path to disappointment for me, then is it really worth it to upend my life and hurt my family? I suppose I can be unfulfilled in my current situation more conveniently and less guiltily than unfulfilled after destroying the life I've built with my wife and daughter. I'm just worried about regret. I never had a chance to date women I liked or discover the kinds of people with whom I'm most compatible. I have dated exactly one woman in my entire life. Maybe it never gets better than what I have, which is a boring, mostly unfulfilling, but amicable marriage.

Has anyone gone through something similar? What did you do? Did you find love? Did you regret leaving your spouse? Did you stay and then regret staying?

I'm lost.

I'm trapped in anxious ambivalence.

[Skeezyks]

Hello TooManyDays: I see this is your first post, here on PC. So... welcome to PsychCentral... from the Skeezyks! I hope you find whatever amount of time you spend here to be of benefit.

With regard to your quandary... I don't how old you are. I'm now in my mid 60's & have been married for around 35 years. My perspective is that passionate love is ephemeral. Sure you can fall madly, passionately in love with someone. It may last a week, a month, a year, maybe even several years. But ultimately marriage ends up being more about stability & companionship than passionate love. And the problem is there's no way to know, going in, whether a passionate love will be one that lasts for years... or one that lasts for days... You could end up throwing the life you have away for a mad, passionate love that lasts for a few weeks or months. And, yes, at least from my perspective, regardless of how your mad passionate love turns out, you will carry the guilt of what you did to your current wife & your daughter for the rest of your life. Trust me on that. Good luck...

[Travelinglady]

Hello, TooManyDays, and welcome to Psych Central! I can't say I've had your experience, but I can understand how that would happen. Even in a good matched marriage, people do change. The main thing is whether your partner is willing to accept your changes and grow with you.

I do believe passionate love exists. I encourage you not to give up on your marriage. See if she would go to counseling with you. Maybe phrase it like "I want our marriage to be the best it can because I love you." If she won't go, then go by yourself. You might just find that your woman is a great fit for you. She is a known entity, so to speak. If you leave, then you might not find someone. Who knows?

Congrats on working to improve yourself and your great strides in feeling good about yourself.

Again, welcome!

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by Skeezyks

Hello TooManyDays: I see this is your first post, here on PC. So... welcome to PsychCentral... from the Skeezyks! I hope you find whatever amount of time you spend here to be of benefit.

With regard to your quandary... I don't how old you are. I'm now in my mid 60's & have been married for around 35 years. My perspective is that passionate love is ephemeral. Sure you can fall madly, passionately in love with someone. It may last a week, a month, a year, maybe even several years. But ultimately marriage ends up being more about stability & companionship than passionate love. And the problem is there's no way to know, going in, whether a passionate love will be one that lasts for years... or one that lasts for days... You could end up throwing the life you have away for a mad, passionate love that lasts for a few weeks or months. And, yes, at least from my perspective, regardless of how your mad passionate love turns out, you will carry the guilt of what you did to your current wife & your daughter for the rest of your life. Trust me on that. Good luck...

I'm 35. I realize passionate love is temporary, but does that make it meaningless? Is it meaningless? I honestly don't know. I've never experienced it. Is it life affirming? Is it a memory and experience I will cherish for the rest of my life? Is it underwhelming or overrated? Will I regret never allowing myself the opportunity to experience it? I have no idea. I don't know the answers to these questions. I think most people experience the intense infatuation with a lover at some point in their lives. Maybe people get old, and tired, and lazy and don't care about losing that feeling after a while because it's too much effort and they've already been there. Maybe people get complacent and allow themselves to believe companionate love is an adequate and unavoidable replacement for passionate love. I don't know. This is all conjecture. But I think more and more that the conventional wisdom about love is a complete lie.

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by Travelinglady

Hello, TooManyDays, and welcome to Psych Central! I can't say I've had your experience, but I can understand how that would happen. Even in a good matched marriage, people do change. The main thing is whether your partner is willing to accept your changes and grow with you.

I do believe passionate love exists. I encourage you not to give up on your marriage. See if she would go to counseling with you. Maybe phrase it like "I want our marriage to be the best it can because I love you." If she won't go, then go by yourself. You might just find that your woman is a great fit for you. She is a known entity, so to speak. If you leave, then you might not find someone. Who knows?

Congrats on working to improve yourself and your great strides in feeling good about yourself.

Again, welcome!

Thanks for your reply. I guess I have to question the meaning of the word love as you used it above: "...because I love you." Sure, I love my wife, but in a dispassionate companionate way. We met 17 years ago. If we met today we wouldn't even be friends. I love her because she's the mother of my child. I love her because we have a history together. That could possibly be enough for me, but I would have to accept that many of my needs will never be met. And I would have to accept that I would never get a chance to find out what a different kind of love feels like.

I already see a therapist. We've discussed counseling as a couple as well. But truthfully, there's nothing we can talk about in counseling and nothing I can do on my own that will make her exciting to me. There's nothing that she could do to make me fall in love with her. I feel almost zero romantic attraction to her. I don't even enjoy spending time with her. Maybe that's just how all relationships end up, in which case why do people stay together at all? I don't need a business partner in raising a child. I need to feel like my life has more love and connection than I will ever get from this marriage. Maybe I'm answering my own questions here.

Maybe the quintessential lifelong monogamous relationship is just a totally false ideal? Maybe the best thing to do is have multiple relationships simultaneously or in sequence. I hate rules.

[healingme4me]

Then it sounds like time to cut your losses.

[Travelinglady]

Yes, under the circumstances, you had probably better move on. Please, though, don't get the kids in the middle or ever "dis" their mom to them.

Individual therapy for you might be good as you follow this path.

Just MY opinions!

[eskielover]

Or maybe now that you really think your something you are becoming an egotistical jerk who thinks that the only thing of value in life is wild passionate love because you have never experienced it & now that you think you are qualified to experience it you throw a true caring relationship away for a dream.

If I were your wife & you changed into this I would dump you & go let you chase your imagined dream.....

Sounds to me more like the guys typical mid life crisis IMO.

[Steiner of Thule]

Originally Posted by eskielover

Or maybe now that you really think your something you are becoming an egotistical jerk who thinks that the only thing of value in life is wild passionate love because you have never experienced it & now that you think you are qualified to experience it you throw a true caring relationship away for a dream.

If I were your wife & you changed into this I would dump you & go let you chase your imagined dream.....

Sounds to me more like the guys typical mid life crisis IMO.

I was thinking something like this, he settled but then after awhile continued working on himself and now sees himself as out of her league. Thinking he is too attractive for her or never really found her physically attractive but before felt like he didn't have a chance with more physically attractive girls so again he just settled for her because he didn't want to risk being alone forever and hopped on the first girl who would take him at the time.

Originally Posted by TooManyDays

Maybe the quintessential lifelong monogamous relationship is just a totally false ideal? Maybe the best thing to do is have multiple relationships simultaneously or in sequence. I hate rules.

Common theme it seems nowadays and I think it's sort of weak willed personally to require multiple partners and overall is shallow to want to have multiple partners. Then again a lot of people in the name of being *open-minded* and *un-shallow* is sort of a huge joke. Others will try to say to be monogamous is unnatural and that it's common to sleep with multiple partners. Which I guess if you want you can go ahead and sleep with multiple people but don't expect it to actually be fulfilling like a lot of the greasy hipsters and mass amounts of sleep-arounds say.

[eskielover]

Maybe the quintessential lifelong monogamous relationship is just a totally false ideal? Maybe the best thing to do is have multiple relationships simultaneously or in sequence. I hate rules.

Only for sleezy people who refuse to commit....if you hate rules why did you marry in the first place? Oh, now that you think you are hot stuff this is the way you feel. No moral values or character. Is that what you really want your child to think of you? Your wife would have every right to let your child know exactly what kind of sleezy person you really are.

[TooManyDays]

I realize my tone comes off as strident and arrogant. That's not my intent, but I'll admit I was being bombastic by bringing up multiple partners. It was a comment made out of frustration and despair. I've read the past few responses, and I certainly understand how you all can see me as a morally bankrupt and disgusting person. Your comments give voice to very deep fears I have about myself. I can assure you that I've thought much worse things about myself than anything you can say about me. I can't continue to do that or I will be left with a single terrifying solution to my problems. I have a child to care for and I need to avoid suicidal feelings at all costs.

Over the years I've tried many things. I've tried to be content. I've told myself that adult love is supposed to feel like this. I've tried to focus on other ways to give my life purpose and meaning. I've tried to make myself fall in love with my wife; doing novel things together, initiating deep conversations, making plans together, focusing on her pleasure and fulfillment, trying to develop shared goals in life, being grateful for the good thing in my life. I've been in therapy. I've focused on my own self worth. I've tried creating emotional space for us to see each other as individuals in an attempt to help us view each other in a new light. I've done many, many things.

If questioning my marriage is wrong, then more than half of married people are wrong too. I got married because I bought into the notion that the normal rites of passage would bring me happiness. I felt, and still feel, deeply indebted to my wife for her affection and kindness. I have no shortage of guilt over my feelings and inability to love her the way I think I should.

When I turned to this forum, I was looking for someone who has been through this or something very similar so that I could learn from his or her mistakes or successes. If what I'm hearing is that my past mistakes invalidate my current feelings and make me a truly horrible person, then I suppose I don't have any choice but to live with it. But I'll say that loyalty no longer seems as honorable as everyone else seems to view it. I didn't feel like I was "settling" when I began this relationship at eighteen years old. I felt enormously grateful to have the opportunity to invest in a romantic relationship. I've simply changed over the last seventeen years and discovered my needs are different than what I'm likely to get from my marriage. I don't want to hurt anyone. I hate hurting people. That's why I have faithfully remained in this relationship for so long.

So maybe I am just a typical guy with a midlife crisis. I don't know. But I guess it's clear that my only redemption is to plod along for the next twenty or thirty years and give up hope of anything deeper or more meaningful.

[divine1966]

I believe there are two solutions to unhappy marriage. Try to improve it by working on it or seeking professional help or divorce. Having multiple partners isn't really a solution to a bad marriage. Regardless if you hate rules or not

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TooManyDays]

I never said I thought having multiple partners was a solution to an unhappy marriage. I made the comment in frustration, as a more general statement about relationships. As in, perhaps I'll never be satisfied with any single person. Of course, that wasn't completely sincere and I have no idea if it might possibly be true. I was just being emotional.

[TishaBuv]

Hello and welcome to PC!

I'm having marriage problems, too (that's an understatement). I'm happy to talk with you about it and hopefully be able to help. Maybe we can help each other figure out which direction to take.

Were you in love with your wife in the beginning? Did you just grow apart? Is it a physical problem, like she has really let herself go?

[eskielover]

It was the way you presented your thinking that brought out the reply I made.

I stuck out a bad marriage for 33 years before I finally was able to walk (run) away....2100 miles away. I no longer had any family holding me. The last 13 years of that marriage were so miserable without my career to hide away in. I didn't realize that all my suicide attempts were really my desire to escape being trapped in the marriage, not overreacting to the loss of my career as therapy seemed to imply.

I was very independent & working on degree & computer engineering career. I talked myself out of the red flags I saw dealing with his personality assuring myself that an educated person could be nothing like my dad. After I finally left, trying to sort through my life, I read a book on ASD & all the characteristics & came to realize that both my H & dad were/had been(my dad died way back in late 80's) were somewhere on the somewhat high functioning end of the Autistic spectrum. Enlightening information for me....it wasn't until after I left that I was able to learn how to communicate in a normal way without being looked at like I was the one with the problem.

I understand where you are coming from...but your logic & reasoning puts you in the bad guy place & leaving your wife stuck because of just your desire for passionate love....which even in the best marriages doesn't continue...but at least they have an emotional connection.

Maybe you are incapable of emotional connection. I know it was missing in my marriage but that is one of the characteristics of an ASD person & I never learned about it from my home life because of my dad & my mom was totally dysfunctional in her own way also.

Maybe you need to learn about emotionally connecting with people rather than just throwing away your wife. MAYBE neither of you know how to emotionally connect & that is what is creating the problem

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Hello and welcome to PC!

I'm having marriage problems, too (that's an understatement). I'm happy to talk with you about it and hopefully be able to help. Maybe we can help each other figure out which direction to take.

Were you in love with your wife in the beginning? Did you just grow apart? Is it a physical problem, like she has really let herself go?

Hi, TishaBuv. Sorry to hear you're also having problems. I don't think I was in love at the beginning - certainly not deeply infatuated in the way I've had crushes on others. She's always been smart and practical, which is why I liked her. Our relationship has been pragmatic, not emotional. I respect my wife deeply. She's a good person. We are just completely different people. We have always been different, but the years have made us even more different than we were in the beginning.

There's no physical problem. It's not as though I've ever found my wife physically irresistible, but then again I don't care much about physical beauty. I don't know that I would find anyone appealing if I didn't love her soul - no matter how beautiful she was. I've never had a problem being physically aroused by my wife or making love to her. The problem is that we are emotionally and intellectually very different. We don't really have fun together - apart from lovemaking. We require completely different things to feel engaged and stimulated. I don't think my wife appreciates the things I value most about myself, and perhaps I don't appreciate the things she appreciates about herself.

This will sound horrible... She doesn't interest me. We have nothing to talk about anymore. I find myself being a completely different person around her just to keep her entertained or make her comfortable. I feel lost. I feel like I lose myself with her. She doesn't love me for me. She can't handle my emotional rollercoaster. I'm a high intensity person. I crave novelty and risk. I have high highs and low lows. I feel completely constrained in this relationship. My wife doesn't make me feel alive. It's so hard to be this much of an asshole about it. I can feel people rolling their eyes.

Anyway, I'll offer thoughts on your situation if you'd like to share. I don't know if I can be much help, but I can certainly understand ambivalence, guilt, shame, regret, etc.

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by eskielover

It was the way you presented your thinking that brought out the reply I made.

I stuck out a bad marriage for 33 years before I finally was able to walk (run) away....2100 miles away. I no longer had any family holding me. The last 13 years of that marriage were so miserable without my career to hide away in. I didn't realize that all my suicide attempts were really my desire to escape being trapped in the marriage, not overreacting to the loss of my career as therapy seemed to imply.

I was very independent & working on degree & computer engineering career. I talked myself out of the red flags I saw dealing with his personality assuring myself that an educated person could be nothing like my dad. After I finally left, trying to sort through my life, I read a book on ASD & all the characteristics & came to realize that both my H & dad were/had been(my dad died way back in late 80's) were somewhere on the somewhat high functioning end of the Autistic spectrum. Enlightening information for me....it wasn't until after I left that I was able to learn how to communicate in a normal way without being looked at like I was the one with the problem.

I understand where you are coming from...but your logic & reasoning puts you in the bad guy place & leaving your wife stuck because of just your desire for passionate love....which even in the best marriages doesn't continue...but at least they have an emotional connection.

Maybe you are incapable of emotional connection. I know it was missing in my marriage but that is one of the characteristics of an ASD person & I never learned about it from my home life because of my dad & my mom was totally dysfunctional in her own way also.

Maybe you need to learn about emotionally connecting with people rather than just throwing away your wife. MAYBE neither of you know how to emotionally connect & that is what is creating the problem

I would never just "throw" my wife away. I think I should have earned a tiny bit of credit by living in this partnership monogamously for almost twenty years. Expressing true doubts and desires shouldn't automatically make me disloyal. I'm not manipulative. I don't take advantage of people. I'm a confused person who wants to do the right thing, and I'm torturing myself by weighing my own sadness against the happiness of others. I'm trying to make an impossible decision. It's a decision with no correct answer, which is why suicide enters the equation. I can't allow that. I've been suicidal before. I never want to go back there. I want live my life happily and peacefully, or else just peacefully even with sadness.

I don't have a problem emotionally connecting with people. I have very deep bonds of friendship in my life. I have a specific problem emotionally connecting with my wife that has been impossible to correct for many, many years. I'm tempted by the lure of love and a deeper connection, and paralyzed by the fear of regret. I'm not on the Autism spectrum, but if I were I'd proudly admit it.

Have you and your wife considered entering marriage counseling together?

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

Have you and your wife considered entering marriage counseling together?

Yes. I've suggested this multiple times. She says she's willing to go if I need her to, but seems reluctant. I think she doesn't want to really dig into the truth. She sees my dissatisfaction as my issue to deal with, not as a problem we need to solve together. She says she's mostly content and just wants me to be more engaged and happier. But she says this is my problem and I need to make a decision about what I want. She doesn't seem interested in changing anything about herself. I think she feels it's not justified when she's perfectly happy. It's probably unfair for me to say these things since you can't get her perspective on it, but that's how the situation feels to me.

Sounds like some sessions might be in order. It's time for you two to get real with each other, and perhaps in therapy might be the way to finally really communicate with each other. There ARE two people in this relationship and what marriage counseling does is works on the relationship together.

[Talthybius]

I think it is fair to leave a relationship when it is not working out for you.
It's just that a child complicates things so much.

Also, I think it is only fair to tell your partner you are dissatisfied. I always feel the pain when I read a story about somehow who thought she/he was happily married where the other person just one day called it quits. Ideally, a relationship starts out perfectly, and you warn each other when it's not perfect anymore so you can both make it perfect again. Of course, this relationship was never perfect to begin with and the OP has already been honest with his wife.

The way the OP describes this it is something that is only going to get worse over time.

Is there anything more holding you two together than the child? If I ever had a child, I feel that I would almost feel as if my life, and my partner's life is over, and that everything is now about the child. So surely, that complicates things.

Most relationships are ended by woman, and they do it in a matter of days. And they have the full right to do as they feel.

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by Talthybius

I think it is fair to leave a relationship when it is not working out for you.
It's just that a child complicates things so much.

Also, I think it is only fair to tell your partner you are dissatisfied. I always feel the pain when I read a story about somehow who thought she/he was happily married where the other person just one day called it quits. Ideally, a relationship starts out perfectly, and you warn each other when it's not perfect anymore so you can both make it perfect again. Of course, this relationship was never perfect to begin with and the OP has already been honest with his wife.

The way the OP describes this it is something that is only going to get worse over time.

Is there anything more holding you two together than the child? If I ever had a child, I feel that I would almost feel as if my life, and my partner's life is over, and that everything is now about the child. So surely, that complicates things.

Most relationships are ended by woman, and they do it in a matter of days. And they have the full right to do as they feel.

I think there's always more than a child holding two people together after nearly twenty years of partnership. We have a whole life together. Our families are intertwined along with all of the practical pieces of life; mortgage, insurance, investments, etc. We have been friends for a very long time. Though we are drastically different, we help each other accomplish all of the ordinary tasks of living and raising a child. It feels incredibly selfish for me to want more. So many people have less.

You cannot stop living your life and wanting happiness when you have a child. Life goes on. You love your child and want the best for him or her, but you still have needs that need to be addressed. There's no way around that. Being a good parent means balancing those needs.

My wife knows I'm feeling torn. She knows she can't fulfill all of my needs. We have discussed it. We continue to discuss it, but only when I bring it up and ask her to talk. She never initiates conversations about our relationship or asks how I'm feeling. She's decisive. She's in or she's out. No in-between.

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

Sounds like some sessions might be in order. It's time for you two to get real with each other, and perhaps in therapy might be the way to finally really communicate with each other. There ARE two people in this relationship and what marriage counseling does is works on the relationship together.

I think you're right. I think relationship counseling is necessary to resolve this. No matter which direction this goes, I think counseling will help us both feel like we are making the least painful decision.

Nobody fulfills every single need of someone else. We change. Our needs change.

Marriage is for better or worse. It is a commitment. If one of you doesn't see it this way, then this is the real problem...

It's work. All of it. Kids are work, marriage is work, life is work.

Sorry if I sound harsh. I am so tired of nobody trying.

[TooManyDays]

Originally Posted by sophiesmom

Nobody fulfills every single need of someone else. We change. Our needs change.

Marriage is for better or worse. It is a commitment. If one of you doesn't see it this way, then this is the real problem...

It's work. All of it. Kids are work, marriage is work, life is work.

Sorry if I sound harsh. I am so tired of nobody trying.

I think 17 years together qualifies as trying. I wrote a whole list of things I've tried in another comment a while back. I understand your sentiment, but you don't know I haven't tried. You're making an assumption about me that isn't correct.

"For better or worse" is also a ridiculous statement. I understand loving someone and caring for them through difficult periods, using each other as support through life's challenges, but nobody can promise to love someone else forever and unconditionally. You don't know the future. And why should anyone do that? I never said those words. You're right about trying. I made a commitment to try, and that's what I'm doing. I always try.

Personally, I'm tired of people adopting some typical point of view on something and rigidly claiming it as moral high ground. I feel guilty enough for questioning my marriage as it is without being called lazy. But I'm glad things are so clear to you. Luckily you'll never have to question your marriage. I envy you.