Married before I could see myself as adequate

You never had strong romantic love for your wife and that is that nagging feeling that tugs at you now. But, it sounds like you both are at least pleasant with each other, good partners, and friends. It also sounds like the sex is good and you enjoy it with her.

I think you'd benefit from a therapist to get you both focused on doing things together that bring you closer. Maybe a boat?

This marriage deserves a real effort to save.

I am getting guilt thrown at me that my marriage is a life-long commitment "for better or worse, in sickness and in health". I am also being accused of finding his one, unchangable flaw and exploiting it in order to push him away because I must have a personality disorder.

I am a mess.

I honestly don't know anymore, I am so exhausted. Don't let this make you as stressed as mine has made me.

Also, you mentioned high-highs and low-lows. Could you be bipolar?

Thank you.

If this is your own sentiment on marriage, then I see no reason to stay.

Based on the feedback I've gotten here, and some thinking I've done on the subject, it now seems clear that marriage counseling is the best next step forward.

Your assessment is mostly right. We are pleasant to each other, good partners, friends, and the sex is acceptable. I wish the friendship part were better and closer. I wish I didn't constantly have monitor her mood and be responsible for her fun and enjoyment in every situation. I wish she were more resilient and excited about novel situations. I wish I could be myself more freely. I do often feel like I'm walking on eggshells. My wife is a difficult person to please, and she never expresses joy or even despair. She's unmoving. The sex is good, simply because it's the only way I know how to really make her happy. It's the only time I feel like I truly satisfy her, and it's evident in her reactions and attitude. It's the only time I get an overwhelming positive reaction from her. Even though she enjoys it and it makes me feel good to please her, it's sad that this is the only way I can make her excited and enthusiastic.

I didn't come to this forum to simply throw away my marriage. I came because I needed help and advice. I need to try something different, because what I'm doing isn't working.

You're also right that I feel nagging regrets about never experiencing a strong romantic love. Maybe it's just not in the cards for someone like me. All the feedback I've received seems to indicate that it's overrated. Maybe you could understand that I've been feeling like I've missed out on a very wonderful part of life, and it's just difficult for me to accept that I will never experience it. I'm not religious. I don't think there are second chances or joys after death. I see this life as my only opportunity to be self aware. So knowing that I will never know one of life's greatest joys nags at me tremendously. Maybe I'll get over it, but I haven't let it go in the last 17 years.

BTW - I read your other comments and your post regarding the problems in your marriage. I think the people who stick rigidly to the belief that marriage is something to be suffered at all costs are wrong. Nobody should be shaming you for coming here and honestly expressing your feelings. I can't tell you what to do, but if you haven't already taken your own advice about counseling, then maybe that's something you could pursue with your husband. If everyone is radically honest it will help move toward clarity on what actions to take. Sometimes it's not better to stay in a marriage. That's just a fact of life. People who deny that are just refusing to change their perceptions of reality because it makes things in life less certain.

I've felt horribly guilty for my doubts for many years. I've tried to be loyal and honorable. I've tried to live up to everyone's expectations. I can't go on feeling so terrible ashamed to be myself. Maybe it's immoral, but it's destroying me inside. So, I've made a conscious decision to stop feeling guilty.

You can PM me if you don't want to discuss all of this in this thread.

I apologize for being snarky. You're entitled to your opinion. I just felt like I was being attacked and that you weren't offering constructive advice.

I really do wish you happiness.

We just see things differently. To me, life is never black and white. It's complicated and confusing. If my feelings make me a terrible person in your eyes, then so be it. At least I'm being honest. In my experience, people are seldom honest with themselves or anyone else.

I'm getting married for the second time. 10 days from today. I've done the divorce thing but my reason for leaving was abuse. I'm going to point some important things in a marriage.

Mutual respect
Friendship
Love not necessarily in love as that comes and goes. That's the passion/compassion. But there should be an underlying love for each other
Common interests
Interests outside of the marriage. Not everything needs to be done together.
Good sex if that's even important to you. In most cases it is.
Ability to communicate without major blow outs. Satisfying conclusion to a fight or talk.

Anything else is icing

One and only reason to not seek counselling ABUSE. Mental, physical, emotional, financial or sexual. Those occur it's time to get out.

You give the tone of "I have the 98/99 model it's time to trade up to the 2018 model" will you actually accomplish that? Or will you be giving up on something that isn't permanently broken?

Red flags for me, I read narcissism but then insecure. Have you been dx'd bipolar or borderline? I also read that your wife may be cold and hard to please on the day to day. That could be problematic. That's where I strongly believe whether she is hesitant or not counselling is your next best option.

Don't be like the rest of your generation and the generations that are following. You are not entitled to anything. Think you will get a better wife well maybe you will likely you won't and will regret leaving the one you have. My siblings are your age, both in long term relationships but not married. I'm 10 years older. Have some experience.

Ultimately what you do with and within your marriage is your choice. I do hope things work out for you. No one likes to see marriage fail and some of the posters to this thread are of the belief that the younger generations believe their lives are disposable. They can get the bigger better version. Nothing gets fixed anymore. Yes 17 years is a long time, yes you were young when you got married but nothing screams not fixable in anything you've said.

Good luck

Thanks for your advice. I will consider it very carefully.

I understand why you would read narcissism. Maybe I am a narcissist. I also understand the eye rolling about a stereotypical man who just seems he wants to find some new and possibly objectively more attractive lover. People seem very quick to assume that I fit that mold. I just want to make it clear, I never said I was looking for a more attractive woman than my wife. (People have made this assumption in prior comments.) It's not as though I've suddenly become much more attractive and I'm trying to "trade up". What's happened is that I have finally found ways to stop hating myself and gained the courage to be honest with myself about what I really want. At the moment, I'm confused about what I want. That's what you're reading as narcissism. What you're reading as insecurity is that same realism applied to my attempt at a balanced view of myself. So when I say negative things, it's just me acknowledging the complexity and ambiguity in myself. None of us are totally good or bad. We all are deeply flawed. I will admit my flaws. I wish I could be a more devoted husband and force myself to be satisfied, but I have never been satisfied and I've become increasingly dissatisfied over the course of the last 17 years.

Also, I'm not sure what you're reading as entitlement? Am I not entitled to question things and explore my feelings? Am I not entitled to regret my past mistakes? Am I not entitled to try to find my way in life? Is my wife entitled to my infinite loyalty and affection? Is she entitled to my complete devotion? I'm a human being, and whether you see it as entitlement or not, I'm nobody's prisoner. I have a responsibility to my daughter that I will not break no matter what happens, and I will always consider my wife's feelings. That might not ultimately make either of us happy or prevent me from negotiating an end to the relationship, but it will always be a major factor. I loath being cruel, especially to my wife whom I respect deeply. This might not be obvious because I'm admitting feelings that seem like disrespect, but wanting one thing for myself doesn't mean I don't also wish joy and happiness for my wife. I truly do wish those things for her.

I'm not bipolar. I have suffered from depression for many, many years, but I'm finding my way into the light and despite my problems, I have more good days than bad now. I've decided conclusively that I don't want to die, that I'm not subhuman, and that I do have value as a person. For the first time in my life, I sort of don't care how other people see me. I know I'm different and that many people can't identify with me (including my wife) but I don't hate myself for it anymore and I won't hide myself from everyone.

There's a lot I need to discuss in counseling with my wife. It seems clear that therapy is the next option. So you and I agree. I'm just uncertain if therapy can help me be okay with a lifetime of companionate love. I think there will always be regret. We'll see. I guess.

Even if you choose to leave your wife it doesn't guarantee that you still will ever know what you perceive to be one of life's greatest joys, that passionate love you are questing after.

How do you know that YOU are even capable of having a relationship where strong romantic love exists? Maybe you have as much difficulty connecting emotionally as you think your wife does. Just because we WISH for something doesn't mean that it's even possible or that we ourselves are capable of attaining it even though our ego tells us we can.

sounds like she is not having a problem & thus doesn't find the need to discuss. Since you seem to be the one having the problem it would make sense that she wouldn't be the one to initiate a conversation about the relationship.

it would be interesting to hear your wife's point of view but then I'm sure if you have been open with her about this as you have your other dissatisfaction with the marriage, you know her thoughts on these things & her point of view about you. You say you have a high intensity about your life...are you judging your wife for her not being equal to your own intensity? Maybe she is as excited about things but just keeps her feelings inside. Monitoring her mood & making her happy is YOUR opinion about her mood. Just because she doesn't express joy or despair in the way you expect her to doesn't mean she doesn't FEEL OR EXPERIENCE it in HER OWN WAY. It does sound like marriage counseling is important but in reality it doesn't sound like you may REALLY know your wife for who she really is but rather for the lack of her meeting what you expect she should be like.


Many times relationships start out with what is thought to be strong romantic passionate love but in reality it's only LUST & that ends up meaningless when it dies out once you get to know the person. It can turns into a deep loving relationship for that person (which in reality if there is a strong love there, the sex with that passion SHOULD continue) or it might just go away if there is nothing but the lust in the connection & that is meaningless.

Just because you spent that many years together doesn't mean you tried to make it work even with the list of things you tried. Those things were your concept of what might work. Therapy is a good place to start. Finding a good T is as elusive as finding REAL passionate love that isn't just lust. I wasted 13 years with T's who in reality never got to the real depth of the problem which was like an ice berg. They never went below the surface. I had no idea until I finally found Therapy that did.

To be honest, when I left my H after all those years, I never looked back wondering about leaving & I never regretted leaving for a moment. I never thought of him after I left. Only wonder I had was what financial irresponsibility he would pull next. For the first time in my life I felt PEACE. I have been alone for 9 years & love it. No desire to ever get involved again unless a really wonderful & responsible man should come into my life with my same values & beliefs. I didn't leave on the quest for passion but I did leave on my quest for regaining my sanity & find peace in my life.. I regret that I got married to him in the first place & that I stayed as long as I did to end up financially trapped there until I could escape.

If you don't mind sharing, since walking on eggshells came up, what types of moods does your wife have? Explosive temperment?

As far as I'm reading, there's yes, couples counseling seems the next step replies to those that suggested it.

Have you made the appointment yet?

I don't know for sure that I'm capable of a deeper connection. I strongly suspect I am, but you're right. I don't know anything for sure. I don't know whether I'd even find it if I were capable of it. But I'll say this; I have connected deeply with others over the years, but never let those connections go beyond platonic relationships. I know for sure that some of them could have gone much further. It's a fine line that I probably should never have approached, but I have. I want that same connection with my wife, but I can't make it happen. I can't get myself to feel that way, or draw her out to meet me.

My wife and I have discussed all of the things you've mentioned. She says she doesn't feel things as strongly as I do. She knows I'm intense. I know she's not. I don't blame her for the way she is. I don't resent her for it. There's nothing wrong with her as a person. We're just incredibly different.

Maybe I am guilty of expecting too much. I do want my wife to be different. I want her to challenge me and excite me. I also want her approval. As much as I can try to value myself, I'd like to feel like she sees me as someone special. I'd like to feel wanted for who I am. I'd like to feel desirable. Sometimes I feel like she wants the life that having a husband and family represent more than she wants me as an individual. I want her to get my jokes. I want her to make me laugh in return. I want to learn things from her and have her force me to think about things from interesting angles. I'm so sick of trivial conversations. I want her to be enthusiastic and open-minded.

There's more, but it wouldn't be appropriate to discuss openly.

So, yes, for the fourth or fifth time, I think seeking counseling is a good idea. I'm already in therapy on my own.

What if there's just something wrong with me? What if I can't be happy or at least reasonably content? All of this stuff just makes it really tempting to start thinking of myself as a malformed person again, like I don't belong with the rest of humanity. Those are dark thoughts. I've been there. It's not productive. I don't want to wallow in self pity or allow suicidal thoughts to creep in. I don't know. But for the sake of argument, let's say all of this stuff is just me. I'm being unfair. I'm not reasonable. I expect too much. I'm too needy. I'm selfish. I'm a narcissist. Does that change anything? If it's all me, then I guess I'd rather not live than struggle the rest of my life to fundamentally change who I am.

It is my husband guilting me to stick it out, not anyone here.

At this point I am thinking that maybe I was not capable of forever relationship, that I focused on his major flaw and let it drive me crazy. I just want to stop the hysteria.

I'd have gladly settled for ho hum. Try to think of it as a comfortable, old shoe. Many people never even attain that in life. You are lucky.

She's not explosive or angry. She's just critical and disapproving. She shuts down and passive aggressively makes me uncomfortable until I acquiesce to whatever she wants, which is invariably not what I want. I don't think she can fully admit that she does this. Basically, I don't enjoy doing things with her. I'd much rather go out and do things by myself. Agh, I know that makes me sound so horrible.

An typical scenario might be us having plans to do something I've been looking forward to for a long time and as we're getting ready to leave she'll sort of shut down. She won't say she doesn't want to go do the thing. She'll just waffle and nitpick things that could go wrong or things that might not be ideal. She'll say things like, "I'll go, if you want..." Or she'll say she's tired, or that she doesn't feel well, etc. I get the distinct feeling she's doing it to exert power over me by denying me something she knows I really want to do. She'll never admit she doesn't want to go. She'll just delay until she forces me to make the decision not to go. Or even worse, she'll actually go and then act so miserable that I don't have any fun and just feel guilty that she's not enjoying herself.

We haven't made an appointment yet, but I will when I find someone I'd like us to see as a couple.

His major flaw is that he doesn't initiate sex or affection?

I don't feel it makes you sound horrible for typically caving into her non communicative style.
What happens when you point this out to her, in the moment?

How long will searching for a couples counselor take?

If I point it out she denies it.

My gf and I were reminiscing about how The Police awakened our sexuality when we were teenagers, and she said "Little did you know that Driven To Tears was about your marriage."

Back to you--
It all sounds pretty strained and I don't think you sound selfish at all. Was it always like this? Is she harboring resentment towards you?

Sounds like your wife could use private therapy of her own on top of couples. From your explanation of the problems going on in your marriage, honest communication from her is lacking.

Don't get me wrong....I left a bad marriage feeling many of the things you described....but I left for my well being, not to chase illusive passionate love. I understand how serious differences tear apart a relationship or in my case it never was there to build on in the first place & I saw it but didn't recognize what I was seeing & he never grew up or became responsible. For me it was like I stayed married to that immature 21 year old who became more like a child as the years went by.

The thing is, when you leave a marriage, it's important to understand all the serious reasons why it failed if you ever have the desire to get married again & have a meaningful relationship rather than living from one fling to another continually in search of that passionate love. It's taken me 9 years after leaving to truly understand all that was involved in the failure of my marriage. I was truly tired of cleaning up the messes he made in our life & the inability to communicate & the immaturity on his part that I finally realized could never change & I couldn't go on tolerating.

The more you post here the more the REAL picture of your marriage problems are coming out & the real issues tha need to be dealt with

If she's denying anything while you address that you feel a certain way when a certain behavior or statement occurs, then it sounds like more reason to work on learning new skills.

I know what it's like, to experience a marriage that's walking on eggshells. One of unpredictable moods, lack of personal responsibility and accountability. One in which I also realized that I grew apart from on many levels. One in which Love is not enough. One in which I questioned how I ever thought that I knew what love was. Why oh why did Disney sell us down the river, hook, line and sinker. That's actually common in marriages like that.
Much of what you've written....it's really not that uncommon of a pattern of thinking. I've read similar stories through the years in various other support sites, almost a decade worth of hearing similar woes. Hence my **** or get off the pot perspective.

Unfulfilling marriages, over time, will leave such sense of cynicism, fatalism, resentment about love.

She says that she'll go to counseling, if that's what you want? Then, get her in, because if you stay, leave or stray it is beneficial for her to recognize about herself how her communication style is pushing people away. Why didn't she take your lead, anyway? You've gone for yourself and have fared well. Why didn't she?

Addressing several of the recent comments above in this reply.

TishaBuv - Yes the relationship and communication are strained at times. She's not forthcoming about her feelings. She doesn't like to discuss feelings. She doesn't like it when I bring up sensitive subjects. There's either a wall I can't penetrate or there's nothing actually there to discover. I don't think she resents me, but she is insecure about certain things. And she definitely needs things to be controlled, predictable, certain, and safe at all times. She has a low tolerance for stimulation and novelty.

eskielover - I'm not even close to deciding to leave the marriage, but I agree that it would be important to understand what failed. That said, if we ever do end the marriage I will definitely never get remarried. Honestly, I never wanted to get married in the first place. I would either remain completely single or allow relationships to evolve organically, including allowing them to end naturally. This might mean having a sequence of relationships, or it might mean seeing more than one person in a responsible and fully consensual way. I have no patience for insecurity or jealousy anymore. If I ever date again I would allow my partner her freedom to see who she wanted. I don't value loyalty or ownership. Any woman I date would be free to spend time with me if she wanted but would not be expected to limit herself to seeing me exclusively unless she preferred to only see me. Individuality is very important to me. I know some people find that idea disgusting, but it's very natural and comforting to me.

healingme4me - I know I need to find someone for us to see together. It's hard to find a good therapist and schedule time where we can both get to therapy without our daughter. I'll make it happen. I think I was too harsh in my initial post and subsequent responses. I do care about my wife deeply. I don't resent her. I just can't get what I need from her, and also I'm having a difficult time reconciling my desire and curiosity about bonding with other people. Those things in combination have caused me to feel tremendous anxiety and regret over ever getting married. I feel owned and trapped by someone who can't communicate with me or understand me as an individual.

I completely understand what you mean by people being mislead by the Disney version of love. I assure you, that's not my perspective. My perspective might actually be worse. I do wonder if love always becomes unfulfilling over time, but I never had that strong sense of excitement and connection to begin with. And if deep love and connection don't exist, or can't exist for me due to some problem with my mind or emotions, then I would much prefer freedom from any relationship.

I didn't respond until now but have been reading through your responses and others. but to this one I have to say shes right.

YOU are the one that's discontent and feeling curious about finding this "passionate love" that you think is out there, which by the way is not a permanent thing nor something that is sustainable so if you choose to seek that you're trading a long term relationship for basically a thrill ride.

anyway back to my thought, I didn't think this was about her but about your feelings and doubts and if that's still the case as you framed it previously then yes it is about you, at least at this point, I see these specific questions and issues to be things that you should look within and not to her for changing it.

Responses from this forum have been interesting. They've given me a list of questions to bring to my therapist.

- Is there something permanently broken in me that makes it impossible for me to love or receive love?

- Why do I believe I will never love my wife the way I wish I could? I just can't make myself feel that deep feeling of romantic love. I love her as a friend and companion, but I can't go beyond that.

- Why do I so desperately want to feel something more? Why aren't I content? Why does it seem like others are much happier and more in love than I have ever been with my wife? Is that just perception or is it real?

- Should I simply give up and be alone, so I'd at least have freedom and my wife could find someone who deserves her? Maybe I'm not really a person who should be in a relationship? What's the point of even trying?

A woman once told me she thought I was capable of loving more deeply than other people, yet multiple people in this forum have suggested I might not be able to love or connect at all. That's interesting. Family members have told me they thought I was the most empathetic person they've ever known. Yet people here have suggested the opposite. Now I'm questioning my perception of myself. Maybe there's something deeply wrong with me. I just want to fall in love. I want to know what it's like to have a fully reciprocated romantic love, not simply companionship and occasional sex. Maybe I'm just being childish. That's what I told myself when I got married. I told myself that adult love is boring. I told myself I'd grow up and learn to accept it. I told myself I could focus on other passions and give my life meaning in other ways. The fact that my doubts and desires have only continued to get worse might mean that there's something wrong with me that can't be fixed.

It's difficult to accept that I'm the only problem. But maybe I'm the cancer. I've poisoned everything. Maybe I'm ungrateful. Maybe I'm a horrible person. Maybe I simply can't conform to the normal standards for love and relationships. I think I've had a pretty good run. I've made a good attempt. At least I've been faithful for seventeen years! That's not bad. I really have struggled against myself for so long. I'm tired. I can't maintain this cycle of denying who I am. If I'm fundamentally flawed, then so be it. I can't keep hiding it and pushing it down. If being honest about myself makes people hate me, that sucks, but I can't hold it in forever. I'm just too tired.

What if the onus was off wondering if it's you and on a patterned set of life's circumstances. I hear what you are saying about being much worse than Disney. Years ago, such discussions of similarity I found greatly beneficial as I sorted through how damaging my marriage was for me, yet, from a vastly different viewpoint, so that mention of my outcome isn't remotely a suggestion, as vastly different circumstances and scenarios, but it's one of the great ponderables, the concept of love, that is.

Based upon my own knowledge, I'll ask this. Your friendships, growing up, were they strained and sparse? Your parents, is their dynamics different than what you have with your wife? Trapped in marriage, does she have a certain dependency on you? Not necessarily in a financial way, but more indescribably so? Not even paternally so, yet in fear of independence or aloof to the concept?

Aside from work and your homelife/family life, do you have any hobbies? Maybe expand more on those? Any ambitions for volunteer work or a separate path from your current field? That, also, could help? I reckon that it's difficult to have a social life with your wife? Do you have couples friends?

When I mention resentment, it can also mean towards the life you are living/leading, not entirely at your wife, but why not some resentment towards her, a little?

About passion, is there not a zest for life, in your home? One thing is the five love languages, it's a small insight in compatibility, yet, if not mirroring one another, left unaware, it can be a big deal. My cousin and his wife, gifted that for my wedding. Didn't read it, until after the divorce, but it's a good read, my ex didn't go for such things. Wasn't open to counseling, among numerous other aspects, that are neither here nor there, but for you, before a marriage counselor is found, it's a small step. Ever read harville and hendrix? There's some good stuff over there for relationship building.

I wouldn't worry too much about vindicating yourself to a group of strangers. We all read from our own perspectives, experiences and the like.

Remember, here we can only go by what YOU WRITE. We can't see you in action IRL so we really have no idea what your big picture is. As you have continued to write, we have been able to see glimpses of the bigger picture. The only thing we can do here is to throw out thoughts that may get you thinking & asking questions & searching yourself & your relationship for things that agree or disagree with the things that have been offered as thoughts here.

Your first post here came across that all you were looking for was passionate love that you couldn't get from your wife so you were willing to throw away your marriage in search of this illusive passionate love that you have never experienced before in your life.

So obviously, you are going to get responses that are in relationship to what you wrote because that's ALL we know about you is what you write. You have offered more insight as you have posted & the picture of your marriage looks different now than when you first started posting.....based on what you have written only because that's ALL we know.

As Healingme4me said, our responses are also coming from our own personal experiences. Offering you basically thoughts for you to answer yourself if they apply or don't apply.....we just throw out what we grasp from the words you write.

Perhaps you know in your heart what you want to do (leave) but you don't want it to be painful for anyone concerned. My ex left and it ruined my life. He told me that sometimes one has to step on the happiness of others in order to be happy. In this case it was my happiness and my child's happiness. It is now many years later and I am still suffering. He is happily remarried. When my ex was in our marriage he grew so miserable he made it miserable for everyone. I had about 10 or 15 years of being really very happy then my life ended for all practical purposes. I am glad my ex is happy now because someone should be. I am not saying what is right or wrong. I am saying you can't make a change without it being painful. Unlike your marriage mine started out very passionately. Doesn't matter. When it goes it goes. When my ex decided he was no longer attracted me physically or emotionally it was over. However, my values were different and I appreciated him and the marriage. That's what I wanted and valued. I am really not judging you. Whatever happens happens. When a person falls out of love or wants something different all the counseling in the world isn't going to bring back desire.