Reaching the Un-Reachable

Well, here goes attempt number two after I spent, literally, a day getting this post just write and about three paragraphs before the end, my computer crashes. But at least it's all fresh in my head. lol

If you make it through all of this post - and it will be long - I thank you. As I write this all over again I was trying to think of ways to shorten it but I can't. Because the reason I'm here, the individual himself, is pretty complex. I can't ask you guys for advice without explaining him because what advice would work for 99% of the population just won't work with him. And he certainty can't be explained in a few words.

The basis of my concerns for why I'm here - How to reach someone who doesn't want to be reached. I mean emotionally. Which in itself, I can think of a million things to try until I turn and look at him and realise that it won't work because.... So we sit and stare and I can tell he feels horrible but seems unable to do anything about it.

He is Judas. Odd name, I know, and he gets bugged about it a lot but I absolutely love it. It's very him. You know how some people just fit their name? That's Judas. Maybe at the end you'll start to see it.

I've known Judas for about two and a half years. Loosely, we have the same small group of people we know. I'm a lot closer to his best friend Ads (Aden), via his girlfriend and Judas is something of a gypsy. He's there, then he's not for two months and one day he just walks in like he was never gone. But it has really only been the last five months that we've been able to get to know each other.

I thought, at first, that he hated me. As soon as I would say Hey or come around he'd lose his cool demeanor. He'd get quiet and almost sullen. Sometimes he'd actually just get up and walk away after a quick furtive glance and a mumbled Hi, how's it going. And I was disappointed because I had the hots for this rough-n-tough bad boy! But he'd carry on and flirt with others, but those few awkward sentences were all I got, so I let it go. I knew (thought) he was never one to bring home, so to speak.

No one knows Judas like Aden does. I would go so far, in fact, to say that Aden is probably the only person that Judas truly considers a friend. It's not a term, for him, that is applied loosely. I hope one day that I'll be able to see as much of him as Aden does. Anyhow, he comes up to me to let me know what the scoop is because he can see what Judas is doing and he knows where he's going and I'm, at the very least, a road block to the end of that path that's to be avoided. When Aden told him I was interested in him, he shook his head and said “No, she doesn’t need someone like me.”

And he tells me that Judas does, indeed it seems quite a lot, like me. His behaviour all seemed a bit backward to me but it is what some people do, he just takes it a little further then most because in an order to not offend me in anyway or making himself seem stupider then he thinks he already is, he doesn't speak. How bad and how fast his anxiety shoots up depends on how many words I get and how quick he makes an exit.

So instead of letting him go the next time, I start again and gradually... I would say by three weeks, he'd actually smile a bit when he saw me instead of the opposite and I'd get a half hour conversation out of him. Some days trying to get four words out of him is absolutely painful but knowing the person that I'm getting to know, it's worth it.

Now, before I continue I need you to get an idea of who Judas is. But I tell you, he is a hard one to crack. You really only get what he wants you to see, except for the rare candid moments when he forgets that's he supposed to hide himself. And in order for him to let you get a glimpse you REALLY have to earn in.
So, order to help me help you, I discreetly asked several people the first five words they would use to describe Judas. Oddly enough, almost everyone pretty much said the same five things, a few slightly different.

1 - Beautiful.
And he is. You catch a glimpse, you second take, and you then you stare and drink him in because every bit of him is just...stunning. He isn't a big guy, at all. He's actually rather on the small side, I guess - at about 5'8" and 140-150lbs. But he isn't scrawny - he's just one solid mass of muscle. You look at him and he seems almost like a spring that's tightly wound and you know it could be chaos when it comes undone. But he's also fluid and graceful and every movement seems to have purpose but he's also the biggest klutz that I've ever seen.
He's like a subtle cross between Kurt Cobain and Gerard Way. He's not classically handsome. He's beautiful. Almost pretty. Black hair, and those blue eyes that are so massively intense. Just enough of an Irish accent. I love when the change, blue to green and back and there's outside ring of green around that blue.
Whether you love or hate him, and he doesn't have a lot of fans admittedly, you would have to admit that he's beautiful.

2 - Cold
I think maybe this should have been more labelled as Shy, but this is how he's seen, I guess. He isn't really a cold person. He isn't friendly, either. He can walk into a room and totally captivate it but he never takes it. He is not to mingle and talk and get to know people but instead he'll sit in a corner and just watch. But I don't think cold fits him - I think his reservations and his shyness and his massive insecurities are taken as him being a cold, arrogant jerk. But he can be that, as well.
Really, he has a huge heart. Yesterday he stopped pumping fuel and ran across the gas station to hold the door for an elderly lady. He volunteers at animal rescues when he came. He’ll randomly pay for strangers lunch or shovel sidewalks at the day care. He saw a dog get hit on the highway and picked it up, drove it to a vet, paid $500 towards it’s surgeries so it would have a chance. He always opens doors and pulls chairs and makes sure I’m warm or don’t need for anything. And this is Judas – his parents didn’t teach him these manners. He’s been on his own, and homeless a spell, since he was 15/16 when they left him. After he got a job, he straightened himself out enough to graduate high school via correspondence while he worked. He just shrugs it off and he won’t take credit for any accomplishments he’s done on his own.

3 - Psycho
This one is I'll start with an example. It was about 4:30am last year when everyone rushed outside due to the a massive commotion which turned out to be Judas slamming a guy in a car door, dragging him out and throwing him over the hood where he caught back up with him and started to beat the **** out of him. I don't think the guy got one hit in. I watched him take four good, solid hits from a cop baton, the last across the head, and the cop still had the bloody nose. I have no doubt really that, if the cop hadn't damn near taken Judas' head off, that guy would have been dead. Now, the act Judas caught him in which involved a sleeping lady, he wasn't innocent at all but... I don't think he's psycho. It's not like he just spazzes out and randomly almost beats someone to death because they look at him funny. I've watched him start fights on purpose that he knows without a doubt that he is going to lose. I asked him one time, after a particular bad loss while we were taking him to the hospital for stitches, Why? He just sort of shrugged and said "It's comfortable."
But when he goes there, wherever it is, it's like he's just...gone. Like a switch flips and that's all there is - him, the subject, and it. The Red, I guess.

4 - Loyal
This is another one that, like him or not, everyone tends to agree with this, that he is loyal and dependable. Now, I think here he differs a bit from other people. As I said, I do think Ads is the only person Judas truly considers a friend and he is ferociously loyal to Ads. I don't think there isn't a thing in this world he wouldn't do for him. I also think, that his concept of friendship and loyalty are more strict then general society. Judas will accept a lot of people as friends but I don't think he really truly considers them friends. Ads is the only person he would call for help or go to for advice or to vent or... Not even me. But when you're his friend, whatever level of friendship he places you at, he's your friend. I believe he is very much an all or nothing person. Whatever Judas does, he does with every ounce of his being and to the very best of his ability. When you have him, you have every bit of him. But when you lose him, that's it. There are no second chances. When you lose his trust, you don't get it back. Unfortunately I think this may be, while an admirable trait, I think it's a downfall for him, too.

5 - Sad
Judas suffers from severe depression and extreme anxiety. It's a well known fact that anyone who knows Judas, knows that he has always planned to go at 27 - Ironically, Kurt Cobain was something of his hero and he was also born the day he died. He has tried to commit suicide twice, at 10 and 18. He is 22 now.

Last year we were helping someone fix her mothers grave after her brother vandalised it and I noticed he was crying. Not loudly, not sobs. Silently, just big tears as he picked up broken pieces of glass. When I asked him if he was okay he started with “Yeah I’m fine.” Then he sat back and stared off and said “It just hurts, you know. I see all these kids and have no idea what they have, you know? What I wouldn’t give for a mom who called ten times a night to make sure I’m okay at the party or listen to my dad ***** because I’m on drugs and ground me, because at least it means they cared. They don’t understand that one day they won’t be there and they’ll be regretting every moment wasted on arguing and fighting and resenting them over something so stupid as doing homework or dishes or whatever but it’s too late because they’re truly gone.
I just couldn’t imagine doing this. But we’re not much, are we? We’re really just disposable – we’re just as easy to toss away as an empty coffee cup.”

There was more – about how he cannot remember his parents ever told him that they loved him, or what it was like to be cuddled or have them be proud of him – and it was absently heart breaking to listen too because I know that he really just wants them to accept him and he blames himself.
I remember awhile ago Aden was trying to find his parents after he was involved in a car accident – a semi driver fell asleep and drifted, catching his pick up truck and pushing them both off the rolled where he was pinned in his truck underneath the trailer.
Ads never would have bothered but the cat scan showed he had a brain haemorrhage from trauma and, being a minor, the hospital needed signatures because Judas was not conscious. I don’t know all the details, only that once they were finally reached, they said they would come and never showed and finally after the third attempt said he would be 18 in three days so if he made it then he could sign and they never showed up. I hadn’t met Judas at this point but I can imagine, being stuck in there after surgeries (he had a rib puncture a lung) and knowing that his parents left him to chance. That at any moment he could die if this haemorrhage erupted and they never came and here he is, crying over someone else’s mother’s grave.
It was shortly after he was released from the hospital, or left early, that he tried to kill himself the second time around.

Two more things that one should know:
1 – He is an alcoholic and a drug addict. He has curbed the drinking – I never thought he would. He’ll have the odd beer or whiskey but I haven’t seen him drunk and I usually never see him sober. He has, however, started smoking Speed in the last year.
2 – He is extremely suicidal. I don’t know what to do because he’s only let me in so far.
And I know he has plans. I know the only reason that he’s here is because of a promise he made to Aden after the last time. I can see the pain in his eyes. And there’s nothing I can do because he just won’t let me in.

So, fast forward five months since Aden’s talk with me and we are where we are. Now we can sit and chat and make jokes and it’s easier for him to let down his defenses a bit. I don’t know that he considers us “together”. He doesn’t make public displays like holding my hand all the time or whatnot. He doesn’t even really do that when we are alone. He’s a little more affectionate when we are away from a crowd – in that he’ll give me a random massage or play with my hair or let me know I’m beautiful or the likes. He isn’t really sending a lot of “you’re my girl” messages but I have to remember that he won’t be sending obvious ones. He hasn’t never brought up sex (He has quite the uh…. Bedroom reputation) and has never made a move and I’ve left it alone because it’s really not that important right now and I’m guessing he is moving at the pace he needs.

But I can’t just sit there and tell him he’s amazing and has so much to offer the world and he can’t give up because he really, truly is a beautiful person because he just can’t handle compliments. It’s been a work in progress for a long time but the first time you compliment him, the smile fades, you get a mumbled thanks and he turns quiet. You keep it up, the wall goes up. If it’s mentioned again, he’ll just up and walk away.

I had him cornered once in the car and I kept it up a bit too long, I didn’t see the signs that his anxiety was sky rocketing – well, I saw them but it didn’t register because it’s just… not normal. But the breathing quickened, he got a shake, he went fidgety and I swear, almost to the point of tears. They must have spent a good deal of time dictating over and over that he was worthless because he believes it, 100%. Loathes himself, was how he described it.

Now, in that five months, that’s how far we’ve come. Maybe not a lot to some, but it’s leaps and bounds for him. But then it sorta slowed and he’s just…mainlining. But I’m concerned because his depression has been BAD lately. And I know his thoughts aren’t good. I know he wants to go, it’s plain as day on his face. He’s hanging in for us but I’m scared that one day we won’t be enough and I don’t know what else I can do to get him past this. I don’t want to upset him by telling him he’s great… I’m just lost.

If you read all that, you're awesome! Any suggestions or tips or ideas would be so greatly appreciated.

Run in the other direction.
He is bad news!
Don't you deserve better in a man?

I hear he's closed off, walls firmly up, but how open is he to the idea of feeling better?


Would self help be an option? is what I'm asking.


My bf has been very troubled, also from traumatic experiences in his youth, and used to be a closed book too. While he's not ready for professional assistance, he however does his best to help himself through his depressive episodes.

You really love this guy.

If someone doesn't want help...there's not much you can do.

You have to get him to the point where he wants to be here. And that is a ton of responsibility to give yourself...I don't recommend (for you own mental health) that you do this....Honestly I don't. No. Just no.

The only thing you can do is to do what you're doing. Be there. Be quiet. Hold his hand. Give him a sense that you will be there for him. He will push you away in lots of ways. Some you won't even see that that's what he's doing....
You could try helping him feel good by "fixing" some problems that you make up...simple ones that won't overwhelm. Ask his advice on a few minor things. (very minor...you don't want to need, but you want to want). He will either help and be glad that he did, or he will close down.

I really don't know any way to make someone understand that they can count on you other than just being there no matter what.

But please, don't risk your own mental health for someone else. In other words, if you can't finish this (and not many can) then don't start.

Huh. What makes you certain he is?
If I deserve better, why doesn't he? We're talking about who has been on their own since 15 years old., has had NO parental guidance, and has had to figure out every inane aspect of this life alone. Why doesn't he deserve the chance to learn to love?
He isn't a bad person. He's made some bad mistakes and some poor life choices but he has never had any positive influence.
He grew up hearing he was nothing but a worthless, no good peice of **** so much that it physically scares him to be put on the spot and name one good quality about himself. It's extremely disheartening to see strangers treating him the same way. I can only imagine how many times he has been wrote off before given his chance.
It's no small wonder he has an issue with being open and is the way he is . And he's only 22.

I can't say for certain, but I'm leaning towards no because of his attitude towards himself. One of the things I did try was something I did with my sister - look in the mirror and tell youself five postive things about yourself. We got as far as sitting down in front of the mirror. He looked at himself for about 15 seconds before turning back to me and stating that I was crazy if I thought this was gonna happen.
I've never seen anyone do admant about a total lack of any positive attributes or such an inability to voice it - just one word even. Whatever they did to him, it had to have been like a drill sargent screaming at him non-stop because he does, rather intently being the all or nothing guy he is, hates himself. He is shouldering it all, thinking he, somewhere along the lines, ****ed up so bad that he couldn't even get one of natures most strongest and natural bond - a mother and her young - to remain. That's a lot for someone to hold, especially when they did nothing wrong but to be born to someone who didn't want you. And that's all he sees when he looks in the mirror, is all that hatred and disgust for destroying everything and he can't let that go and I don't know how to make him believe that he has it all backwards when it was your parents (and then people he's met randomly) confirm over 22 years that yeah, you ****ed up bad, Judas.

Interesting. Similar to some of my experiences, although I'm guessing you're about his age, and I'm 30 years older now. You can like or even love this guy, but don't fall for him too hard. And don't try and fix him by loving him better. Only he can do that. Most of my relationships were with broken people who I thought I could help. I never imagined it possible to be loved for myself. Still don't. But as a older woman past the menopause who never married and has no family, all I will say is that life passes us by faster than we think. You care for him and might invest a lot in him, but what about you? Do you want to marry and have a family? What do you want out of your life? Is he able to give you that? It doesn't sound like it from what you've said. His story is very sad and I understand the depth of your feeling to care and to support. But don't go too deep. See if you can help him get professional help. Stay close friends if you can't stop your feelings, but DONT sleep with him. That would be the slide downwards into chaos and heartbreak. Care for yourself too.

I think you could be his friend. But I don't suggest you pursue a man romantically. If he is suicidal and violent drug addict plus isn't very interested in romance with you I only anticipate heartbreak in the future. But I certainly think you can be a friend. Also I recommend alanon for you. You will learn that you cannot fix other people

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I'm sincerely sorry that he has had a very rough time in life. But I think it is important to ask yourself honestly: Are you in your heart of hearts looking to be his lover or his therapist? No one can be both.

I just want him to live, first and foremost. What else may happen, so be it.
I guess I protrayed him rather rough - and he can be. But he would never, snd I say this conviction, hit a women or a child. That's his trigger, when he fights. Every fight I have seen him initiate was started because someone was hitting, grabbing, yelling at, or as in the first example, raping, a women. Unless he started it to intentionally hurt himself, in which cases ot's usually started with a guy who has a few friends around. He takes no chances of coming out on top.
He has never done anything to ever give me a moment to worry. This is a guy who opens the car door and pulls out the chair and won't let me walk by the road. He is, for someone who has been treated like **** by people his whole life, probably the most respectful, sincere, caring guy I know. Let alone one in his early 20's.
There are certain things he can't handle and violence against women and children (animals, as well. He is big on animal rights) and I can't fault him for that... I don't agree with how he handles it but I have to say, if it were my daughter out there I would rather someone like Judas around who will step in instead of walking on with just a call to the cops.

As for the romance part... it's not something he needs. He needs to figure himself out before he can truly be involved but again, I think there is some misinterpretation.
Several years ago he was in a fairly serious relationship (this was before I knew him but Aden was around) that, obviously, fell apart. She broke up with him explaining that while she still loved him, he wasn't changing fast enough and was just to needy and she needed someone less insecure.
I honestly believe that all he wants is to be able to love and have someone love him. But he invested so much but in the end it was all for naught because he still wasn't good enough. He still speaks highly of her but you can tell it did a lot of damage. He's scared, I think, to go through that heartbreak again and it's not as if he has a history of people who haven't let him down.
He is easing into it slowly but weighing the options, I guess. He already thinks that he is not good enough for me, ergo I will break his heart, but will the happiness between the beginniing and the end be worth the pain? I believe that's more his line of thinking.

Well we aren't in other people's heads and we don't really know what they are thinking. I warn you against guessing what he might be thinking or wanting. In my personal long life experience this is not a man and a life style a young woman needs to get involved in. I'd be worried if my daughter devoted her life to someone you described ( not saying he is a bad person). It's ok staying friends but warn against obsessing about him. Going for people who needs fixing never works.

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If a guy wants you, he will let you know. He's just not that in to you. Seriously. And I think it's kind of insulting to analyze a potential partner to this extent. To say, you need this and this and this and I can give it to you and then you'll be happy. That's kinda one-sided, for one thing. And it completely ignores what you need to be happy. Why are you afraid to look at what you need? This was a HUGE question for me. So much easier to fix someone else than to question myself.

Good post unaluna

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I don't know if I'd say he doesn't want help... I think he does, but I don't think he knows how to accept it. And he certaintly doesn't know how to love himself. I don't know how to help him change that. He can't seem to grasp that what happened to him, how he was raised, wasn't his fault. He knows the why of most of it... I've heard him make excuses for them. And there is none. But to him, there is something he missed... Something he could have done to change their opinion.
But now he goes into every relationship, be it for friendship or personal, knowing he is inadequate and it's just a matter of time before he ****s up and they're gone and he is alone again. So he's already self sabotaging before he starts. And it sucks because he is a good person. I can see how his ex would say he is needy because he is going to need a ton of work and patience and dedication and, like you mentioned, she couldn't handle it.
Do I know if I can? I have no idea. I've never met anyone like him before. I don't harbour any illusions that I'm going to sweep him off his feet and save him and live happily ever after. I wish it were that easy. But I already sorta got my foot in rhe door and he's hanging here by a thread and I know if I ditch out now... He really has no one else talks to aside from Ads. He doesn't really stay long when I have other people around because he knows that they don't consider him a friend. Not that they're outright rude to him, but... He isn't stupid. He knows that they know he's beneath them so he's quiet and awkward and he said he doesn't like putting me in that position.
Being the way he is (withdrawn and untrustful) and what he's been through, he doesn't have a lot in common with people his age. Things that normal 20 year olds find funny and joke at, he just doesn't. He had to grow up too fast and there's nothing there for him to relate too.
I wish he could just put the blame where it belongs, let it go and move on but he's so set that he is what they made him, which is...Nothing.
I guess you're right... In that I do love him. It's hard not to fall for someone so... tragically beauitful. But the inside too. I find it amazing that he still has compassion and I can't help but think of the person he would have been if he hadn't been stripped of every chance before he got it. But in the same breath, it's hard to fall head over heels because you get a piece then he's pulling back. It's not easy to be dis-illsuioned that it's a fairy tale because half the time he makes you want to bang your head against a wall.... lol
Decisions! Those are tough. Asking him to pick a place for lunch is painful. It just won't happen, actually. Easier if it's just us, still a hard process, in a group not a chnace. But I sshould have thought of advice more. Like a "Which looks better, this sweater or this?" Sort of thing. I doubt he has the patience to go through my wardrobe so I'll have to think of ways to sneak them in. It's a good way to get feeling more involved, I think. Thanks SophiesMom

Do you smoke speed?

Perhaps the most significant way you can help him is to help him realize that he could benefit from seeing a therapist.

Huh?

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Was a question for the OP.

Reading your story, I can tell your heart is in the right place. On the one hand I understand how you feel you are the one keeping him here on earth..but at the same time it is a rather arrogant place to put yourself "if not for me, he would be gone"...maybe, or maybe not. what will you feel if he goes despite your presence? suicidal thoughts don't follow logic, people in that place are very much alone there (I have been suicidal several times, so I get that) so how they are affecting others is not as high on the priority list as the feelings they have and the wish to end those painful feelings. For myself, I didn't really want to 'end' me, but I couldn't make the psychic pain go away so I thought, 'well, I need to make myself go away'.

I was with a couple of men who were damaged by their pasts and the truth of it is, YOU cannot fix it. no matter how much you care, love, cry, hurt, for that person, YOU cannot make it all better. and in the end you lose so much of yourself from trying so hard to do that, to help in any way you can. and you begin to resent that other person for not 'getting better', or not reciprocating the love and care you are pouring out of yourself onto that other person. the first man I fell for, we started as friends and he was very dependent on me...and I poured love and care on him, I gave him all of my mental energy...and when he did end up breaking things off (it was my ex husband who ended the friendship, not either of us but he acceded to my ex's request to cease contact)...I had NOTHING left inside to hold myself up with. I was an empty shell...I had a breakdown and it took almost a year to recover myself. I was an adult over 40 with teenaged children when this happened...I can't even imagine being in my 20s and going through what I did. and I don't want YOU to go through that. It changes you as a person, it is very traumatic.

so what would I suggest? I think the alanon suggestion was a good one...also perhaps seeing a therapist of your own to talk things through...because he is and will take a LOT of mental energy from you and you will need a 'voice of reason' to talk to...not just friends. would I recommend you stay with him? I don't. but I know how hard it is to walk away and in the end I wasn't able to the first time...but I did the second time. I am not and you are not responsible for what actions they may take. If he does end up taking his life, it is not your responsibility...that is too great a burden for you to even attempt to take on. ultimately what he does or does not do, is not dependent upon you. even if he cares for you, it may not be enough. depression is selfish and it lies to us and we believe it's lies.

I wish you the very best, I know you care deeply for this man...just know that the happy ending you have in your deepest heart is not going to happen with him. be prepared for that. walk away now if you can. but be prepared if you don't that you may have the biggest heartbreak of your entire life. I hope for your sake that you don't.

((BIG HUGS))

I just wondered why you think she smokes speed ( does drugs).

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I have seen the scenario unfold more than a few times where someone gets focused on a love interest who is an addict, and ends up trying their drugs as a way to relate or something.

Obviously this rarely ends well.

moogs

I personally don't think it's wise to pursue men who are not interested. Yes it's tempting to say he just doesn't know what he needs or he doesn't know how to accept love. Sometimes people fall in love with those who don't reciprocate , and it happened to you. But sometimes people have to work on their self esteem and sense of self- worth so they can respect themselves enough to not pursue men in this manner.

I agree he needs mental health help and it's sad he is struggling but at this point in his life he isn't ready to get help and he isn't ready to respond to romantic pursuits. Insisting that you know that he needs is kind of disrespectful to him.

It's also not wise to assume you know what he wants or needs or you become codependent, and you already preoccupied with his needs above your own .

I highly recommend alanon for you as well as therapy

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In answer to the question - No, I do not smoke Speed. Of course I have seen him smoke it and by his own admission he does, but when he is alone with me - especially at mt familys place - he does not bring it out. He is, actually, napping beside me, on day 5 of being clean. Whether it is long term or not remains to be seen. It has been... trying. Moreso for him, of course. But it shows he actually meant it went he said he wants to quit, to try and fix things.

It hurts to see how readily he is cast away, however. If this is what he deals with, day in and day out, I can begin to understand how he is so sure that he is worthless and does not matter.
My heart hurts that he, someone who was damaged at the hands of another and never given a chance to recover, can be tossed aside. In his own words "we're no less disposable then coffee cups." Perhaps I wasn't hearing the musings of a broken person but someone wise beyond his years.

And so that's it - like he is nothing more then a tax write off... Filed and discarded.
No wonder he feels so alone.

There is feeling badly for another person's pain - and there is not being able to live your own life because of another's person pain. Unfortunately i fell into the second group. I hope you dont.