Finding it hard to stay faithful to one man

While you may have a point, it still doesn't change the fact that getting married is rather illogical if you aren't doing alright financially and have a spouse that isn't going to betray you later down the road; something that a high percentage of people, unfortunately, aren't lucky enough to have.

If you aren't well off enough financially to where you can take a hit on the debts and the higher expense of certain services and other living expenses that a married couple has to deal with these days, then the rational choice would be to actually do something about your money issues first before getting married. Why cause yourself more needless struggle when one doesn't need a fancy ceremony and a legal binding contract to love?

Similarly, if one gets married to somebody who is untrustworthy or abusive, than they are setting themselves up for needless pain and hardship. Such a choice is little more than a logical fallacy.

Sorry to sound so harsh and I apologize in advance if I offended anyone, but I have always found it frustrating when people make such significant choices in life that could hurt them later on over listening to their feelings, which have a habit of causing people to make irrational decisions. I am a logical person and an INTJ after all

Not everyone has fancy or even expensive weddings. I paid for the wedding license, went to the magistrate, paid for the certificate, it was done. The rings we bought from a pawn shop for less than a total of $200 for my set n his combined. I wore everyday clothes n so did he. We will always be disabled. Does that truly mean we should never marry? And why do we get an abundance of help for living under the same roof unmarried (incomes reported) and then suddenly no help once married (same incomes reported). Yes, we have our issues. We are human beings. Everyone and every couple will have issues. Other issues (including infidelity) may or may not come up later. Nobody can predict the future. Yes, some are worse than others. Yes, some I should not have to go through....but yes, we truly love each other n THAT is why we married. So I ask again, why are we being punished for being married and why does that sit well with you?

That's the thing. It doesn't sit well with me. It's because of stuff like what is happening to you that I brought up my opinion in the first place.

Sorry that the entire point beyond my replies was taken out of context.

I mean... this is my issue. If there is truly a penalty to getting married as some have claimed on this board... then why would anyone do it? You can live together? The obvious answer has to be societal pressure and advantages economically and socially.

You can love someone without a marriage certificate, have children without a marriage certificate. The fact that anyone chooses the legal state of marriage when so many other "sacraments" are a total joke -- communion; last rights etc.. says all you need to know. You can argue the love argument all you want but love and marriage are mutually exclusive. The only reason anyone would support the legal state of marriage is that there is a societal advantage they want to get in on.

I take heart in that many of the millennials are not getting married. Frankly because they can't afford it but in light of that they are questioning the state at all.

My question is....who came up with this "idea" of marriage?
Is it just a piece of paper? Is it for legally binding purposes? I know there's many answers to it. (And I'm enjoying this thread & everyone's comments too. Thank you!)

My reasoning is that it originated by human kind in the form of government or religious based institutions. I'm not sure which was first but I'm leaning toward religion.
To me, both those "institutions" are controlled based.
A sure bet to control the masses which is what's needed in society. Control. And a hierarchy of power.

Ultimately a strong form of slavery. So to me, this has nothing to do with where you live, how old you are, your values or western, eastern philosophies.
How else do you control the masses.
You strike fear in them.

We think a lot alike; it's almost uncanny haha

I do agree with what you say. This is exactly why I consider myself an atheist. All religion is to me is a means to control people and nothing more. I could be wrong, but I think marriage (at least in it's current form) originated from the Roman Catholic church; an organization currently rooted in allegations of child molestation.

I used to be rather reserved and respectful of people's customs, however, the more intelligent and educated I become, the harder it is for me to be respectful when I see how there are so many people being hurt needlessly because of things like religion, marriage, cultural customs, ETC. I believe that everyone should have the right to live like they chose as long as they aren't hurting anybody in the process and society or other people has no right to try to impose their views on anybody else.

Anyways, I digress from my main point. The original meaning behind many posts in this thread is to try to understand why people places a high value in a man made ceremony that causes needless hardship and headache when you don't need it to love. Who cares about if there is societal pressures to marry or not or how the hardships are caused? What matters is that they're there.

There are more economic advantages to being married than unmarried. There is no governmental war on married people. It costs more to live as a single person than a married person. Why? Because if people are smart they can make their money go farther once they join forces with someone else. How? Well to give just a few tiny examples....if you live alone and pay rent, then get married does your rent double? No, it stays the same. You can buy food in bulk and save too. In the US for instance, if you buy 2 gallons of milk it's only slightly more expensive than one, not double the cost. A single person cannot usually drink 2 gallons without it going bad but a couple or family easily can. It's much easier to get assistance as a single person with kids than a couple and has been this way my entire life (42 plus years). Often if you are receiving assistance in the US, you cannot have 2 working adults even living in the same home. I have married friends who have considered getting a divorce just so they could get the advantages those greedy singles have. This is fraud. For some it's more advantageous to stay single while for others it's more advantageous to be married. People would be best to know the laws as it applies to them before making a decision. Nobody is forcing anyone to be single or married.

Most certainly marriage as an institution is not perfect. And luckily in the modern world being married isn't a requirement. Ton of people live with their partners and don't marry or remain single. It's all personal preference in the western world.

Saying all that, in my observation and experience the only people who complain about insititution of marriage or insist that society pressures them, are in two categories. One is unhappily married people who are afraid to leave or dependent on their spouse and can't leave. Second are people who have hard time finding a partner or good partner or partner who wants to commit.

I know many happily married people or in good relationships and they don't think marriage is a sham. Those who don't have that or aren't even married believe (or say that they do) that marriage is a sham. It's kind of ironic.

Something tells me that if opponents of marriage met someone really great today and were proposed to, they'd get married tomorrow. All this "society pressuring them or marriage is a sham" wouldn't matter as much.

Couples pay one cable bill but get the same cable, one heating and air bill but enjoy the same comforts, cell phone plans have "friends and family" to save by pooling resources and sharing. It's all in how you do it. If you do it right, it's easier to make it in this world by being couples. Single people often need more help, especially if they are disabled. It's not a war on married people, it's simple logic. It's better for me to be married even though I would get my rent covered almost entirely if I divorced (section 8) but I wouldn't be entitled to my husbands retirement if he passed away and I did all the cooking, cleaning and child rearing for 15 years so I think I'm entitled. People just need to use their heads and do a pro and con before making big decisions like marriage. Don't blame the government because it KNOWS that TRULY single people usually have it harder. The help should go to those who need it most....some people know how to skirt the system and I'm not holding that against them....people need to do what they need to do to survive.

Marriage is a contract and just like any contract, you should read the fine print and know what you're signing up for before signing. As I said before, for some it's more advantageous to be single and for others married. Best to do ones homework before rather than after. I do feel bad for people who don't know the laws before signing up and end up being screwed....this does happen. I'm not a believer in "ignorance of the law is no excuse" of course it's an excuse but just because it negatively effects some people does not then mean it's bad all around or for everybody. Laws are written to help the majority.....they cannot be perfect for everyone sadly but I do agree some people get the shaft when getting married.

I am 43 Elsa and I stand behind everything I said as first and knowledge. From having to live in shelters and finding my way out single, to getting back on my feet then marry just to crash financially. Was it because I was stupid? Hmm. Let's ponder that. Me and my husband lived together almost 3 years before we married. Our incomes remained exactly the same bc both of us have been on disability close to 10 years. We have been balancing our income fairly decent. Had enough to be able to handle emergencies if or when they came up, etc. Then we marry bc we decide we want to make this an official "forever" love, a promise to each other, not to society. All the sudden the little bit of help we were receiving (assistance on paying monthly insurance premium) disappears. That may not seem like a lot. In reality, it is $109 taken from each of our paychecks. So.. that's $218 less a month. Basically half a month's rent - just bc we married. Don't believe me? Call the NC SSA. Those were the words right out of their mouth.

No it has not always been this way.

You preach about how it's cheaper to pay rent, yep you're right, but... your food bill goes up, your water bill goes up, your electric bill goes up, if you have cable or satellite or internet that too may go up. There are other things that either increase payment or decrease pay out not just because of usage but because if you have them you are required to inform them of any personal changes including marriage and the second you report you are married...it penializes you.

I am interested to know, have you ever used any assistance programs and if so when the last time you did so was ... or are you simply relying on written information (which is cleverly worded to disguise it's corruption)?

So if marriage is not perfect as you state, the only people complaining about it are these people you lumped into 2 nice neat categories.
Everyone else must be happy. ? Who's privy to that information found behind very closed doors.
Yes I know many many couples that are the picture perfect advertisement for marriage. Don't we all? But I don't know the shadow side of these couples; only they do.
And if everyone met "someone really great today" well we'd be closer to contentment. This style of pedestrian thinking I have issues with. It gives this egocentric tone that, it works for the majority, get on board. Stop complaining & be the proverbial lemming.

I stand by what I said 100% too. Nothing I said was incorrect. I'm not saying you didn't get screwed, I made it clear that "some" people do. im also not saying you're stupid....I said that smart people can make better use of 2 incomes than one. At some point you thought getting married would be of benefit and now that you've gotten married and been penalized you think the system is somehow rigged for all. It's not all, it's some and it's not intentional, it's just how things go....no matter how well meaning laws are written, some poor person is going to fall through the cracks. You obviously didn't always see it (married people being penalized) this way or you wouldn't have gotten married, correct?

I can cook a meal for 4 people using the same amount of electricity I use on a meal for one. We get cheaper auto insurance by combining......I can stay warm in the winter and cool in the summer for the same cost married as single. As a general rule, there are more economic benefits to being married. People don't need to believe in this for it to be true.

I'm glad you got out of the horrible situation you were in.....that must have been very hard and I'm sorry you went through such hardship. I think you'd be smart to talk with a lawyer about getting separated and saving money in health insurance. If you can't afford it, you need to do what you need to do to survive. If you can afford it and are on disability, then the system is working as it should. Whether I've been on assistance is irrelevant.....you don't need to be on assistance to know how things work. A disability lawyer whose never been on assistance knows more about the law than the typical person in assistance. You've been on assistance for some time and admit you didn't know how things worked until you got married so I fail to see the relevance. If I've never been on assistance, it doesn't invalidate my opinion or make correct information I've provided somehow false.

To reiterate, you got screwed and I'm sorry. I agree in your situation marriage wasn't the best option but that doesn't mean you can make blanket statements about marriage as a whole. Well, actually you can but it doesn't make it right.

I did not believe it would "benefit" me to marry. I just did not believe or even consider it would penialize me to marry. Please do not assume to know my thoughts or beliefs when we have never even communicated before now. The fact that you have not been on assistance does lessen your credibility because if you had been (or even if as an attorney you knew the laws concerning such) you would know each state differs in it's elgibility requirements for assistance both married and single and that disability in fact increases the chances of getting assistance. Now, the fact that I moved to a new state this past year has a lot to do with why I did not know the requirements, but also the fact that the requirements change from year to year and when we had applied as a couple living together the previous year, the representative had told us nothing would change other than my name once we married when we asked about it, bc she said the standards weren't changing that much, but when we went to update the information after marrying, they said we no longer were eligible for any assistance. Please do not come at me as if you know me when you do not or as if I do not do my research when you know nothing about me bc if you did you would know before I make any legal decision (including moving) I read everything, research everything, and prepare for everything I need to. This came from out of the blue. I am not the only one this has happened to. When it comes to SSI vs SSDI, people get hit harder and often are ill informed. As far as I see, everyone in this thread is making blanket statements. I was defending marriage, something you maybe do not like? Many others are presenting arguments to give the blanket statement that marriage is a scam by society to benefit society in some way and therefore bad. I was saying marriage in itself is good but the government is trying to keep people from it. You are free to believe as you choose but stop giving statements as if you believe me to be a liar as your first comment about this did. You yourself by the way are giving the blanket statement there is no scam. Don't give orders you cannot follow yourself. We are all allowed opinions. Mine are based upon facts. You assume to know facts based upon "how the law is laid out". How it is laid out and how it works are entirely two different things. Ask anyone that's been on the other side (meaning the "client" not the attorney)

You stated you got married to make it an official forever love. That means you saw a benefit. The benefit being it made it official and forever. Benefit does not have to mean financial and I was in no way assuming otherwise. I dont presume anything but you have. I could go further but i see no point arguing. You're not entirely wrong and I'm not entirely right and I'm happy with us leaving it at that. I'm not coming at you, just stating facts as I see them. I could claim you are coming at me but I'd be presuming which I try not to do.....I don't always succeed as I'm human and flawed but I try. I hope I didn't upset you with my opinion. I hope things work out for you, I really do.

Thank you for this. To be honest, up until this I did feel very attacked and reacted as such. I know I came off harshly bc it was intended that way. Now that I know you did not intend to offend me, I apologize for the harshness. I truly did feel you were "outting" me as if I were some sort of liar in the start of this conversation which in what incited the anger n defensiveness in me. Sorry. We are both human and as such both make mistakes. Perhaps you misworded or I misinterpreted, not sure. Either way, glad it's cleared. As far as my presumptions, I don't know, again maybe those were misinterpretations of something you said. When I am angry or defensive I do tend to misinterpret more than usual. Under normal circumstances, I ask before assuming anything if not directly told something as fact. I actually annoy people that way. Anyway, I do wish you well. Take care.

I get it....I'm the same way. I'm glad we cleared this up. Life is hard enough without people adding more misery to another's life. You are disabled and I am too and we have enough to contend with. I think we are on the same side here with just slight variations to how we see things. You take care also (((hugs)))

I said that in MY observation and experience in real life (specifically mine) only two categories of people are complain that marriage is some kind of scam.

In my observation people who are relatively content with their life, either single or married, don't complain about society shaming them or conspiring against something single people and marriage is a scam. It appears than what people complain about is a projection of their own struggles and lack of satisfaction with their own lives rather than some kind of universal truth. That's my observation of people making generalizations.

It's just my observation in real life

Overall we can agree to disagree. You think marriage is society scam and I think it's a choice.

I think my views of marriage have changed since I've been married for 23 yrs. what I thought was valuable in my early 20's has definitely changed.
I was very naive in what I what I wanted & was taught to want. I did it by everyone else's rules.
And by their rules I should be very happy.

I also had no intention of attacking you and I'm sorry if I came across that way. If anything, seeing you go through what you are due to your marriage puts coals in the fire to fuel my already intense resentment towards happy couples (not you of course).

I don't deny that I have a lot of issues with envy. I envy happy attractive couples because I know that it it highly unlikely that I will find somebody that will love and accept me for who I am that I could spend the rest of my life with due to a combination of my MI and the fact that I have shifted my priorities towards my entrepreneurial goals and my passions, which means that if I am successful, I will probably attract more gold diggers and possibly a psycho or two that will want to use me for money or protection or whatever.

While I am anti marriage, largely due to my own experiences and goals in life, I do hold a degree of envy and resentment towards people who have found love for this very reason. I know that a romantic relationship isn't for the likes of me because what I want in life conflicts with relationships.

Anyways, I'm sorry if I upset people here. Communication skills aren't my strong suite.

Honestly guys, I think it was mostly me being overly sensitive due to a huge amount of stress I am going through. Yes, I did take some things you said wrong, Darkness, but I also was thinking maybe I had. Which was why I pm you. You and I are great friends I believe and so I feel safe in doing that. Thank you for explaining. I do believe you can have a romantic relationship if you ever choose, but unfortunately with that comes a lot of heartache both in finding "the right one" and in trying to establish and grow the relationship, so you also have to be willing to see it through even through the crappy times. Even those couples that present as "happy couples" have moments in time when they would like nothing more than to just disappear or leave or get physically violent, but if a couple is generally genuinely happy and truly loves one another, those thoughts are just that, thoughts...they may scream n cry n slam doors though, but in the end, they will work it through. So, there are happy couples, but not perfect couples. It's my experience many confuse happiness with perfection when it comes to love (at least initially), so if you are getting upset bc you can't find perfection, don't..you never will...BUT...you can find someone who wants nothing more than your happiness, love, affection, and acceptance ... and is willing to do what it takes to assure those things take place both for her and you. Anyway...sorry if I spoke where I should not.

Yeah no one can guarantee us happiness.

But I think your view on marriage might have changed because you married a bad match and realized it later one. As many of us did, especially marrying in young age. Then we want spouses to change into something they aren't. That's a recipe for disaster.

My first husband and I were not a good match, the only thing we were good together at was co-parenting. Which I am grateful for. I don't think it's society that made me choose a spouse. Neither then nor now. Second time around (many years later). I knew to choose a better match so I have a better marriage. But I was single for many years in between and it was just fine on all accounts, at no point I felt I needed to be married to be happy. Many people chose right the first time (often because they didn't grow in disfynction). But it wasn't society's doing.

I grew up in dysfunctional family and fought hard not to live in dysfunction. It's all my choice. I refuse to be a victim of other people or said society (within legal limits).

Societal norms play a role in our choices whether we are capable of seeing this or not. I'm not making this up (what would be in it for me to make such a thing up?) If we were raised in a society where nobody got married, we wouldn't either. If we were raised in a society where women covered up from head to toe, we would to. It's not about assigning blame or not taking personal responsibility for our own choices it just how things work. My friend who is Christian honestly believes that if she were raised in a Muslim country with Muslim parents she'd still be a Christian because she makes her own choices. Not true or logical but people can believe what they like.

Honestly, not caring about what other people think can be so liberating.

I stopped giving a damn about what society wants out of me a long time ago and do things my own way now. After finding out that my mother lied to me my whole life and finally accepting the fact that I was abused, I stopped giving a damn about societal expectations and I learned how to question everything. If people don't like me because I'm different, than it's their fault and problem and not mine.

In fact, I was actually told that because of how closed off to suggestion that I am, I would be nearly impossible to hypnotize. I trust nobody and nothing and I always question everything. Mine is the only way.

I agree, it is possible to be your own person without letting others or society influence you, in fact that's one of the many things my mom told us as children over n over until.it sank in

As to the Muslim v Christian example given by Elsa (the one you responded to), there are Christian people who live in those countries, but are forced to remain quiet about it due to the very real possibility of being shot or beheaded for their beliefs. Many people go with societal norms not because society "forces" it on them, (How can you technically force anyone to do anything unless you are physically manipulating them? All you can do at worst is threaten or kill them for doing something different.) but because they are afraid of "standing out" and being "different" and possibly being picked on, ridiculed, threatened, beat up, or worse. I am proud of you Darkness, because you don't give in to those fears. It isn't bad to listen to and consider advice though, but that doesn't mean you have to take it if you don't want to. As to some who think I would not have gotten married had I known I would lose my insurance premium help, I would still have gotten married but would have first designed a plan to prepare for that. You and I are a bit alike in that manner, Darkness, we don't truly care what others think. The difference is you take that notion to more of an extreme than I and to be honest, I am not sure if that's good or bad because sometimes I get hurt from letting ppl get to me but I see you sometimes hurt bc you don't let ppl close enough. I'm not sure what the middle ground is, or if there is one. I do believe we are right in one thing: remaining true to ourselves and don't let others get in the way of that.

Please don't take any of what I said wrong. I was agreeing with you, commending you, and offering up a bit of information both from my experiences and knowledge, none of which was meant to criticize or insult in any way.