Mother Daughter Relationships

My daughter is going to be thirty soon. We got along great until she became a teenager. I thought that phase had an ending. it's the phase where they are embarrassed to be with you. They think parents are clueless. And everything you do embarrasses them in front of their friends. She's still in that stage.

In addition, we are "magically" always opposed in our viewpoints on everything. She asked me what I thought about the Kavanaugh Confirmation. So I got to talk first. I said I didn't believe the testimony of the woman. I didn't believe her story, for a variety of reasons. This really upset her. As she believed the opposite. You would think this is why I'm posting here, but it's not. I'm posting here because this unpleasant teenager phase they all go through hasn't gone away with her. She's actually unpleasant to be around, because she's so deeply entrenched in her beliefs. If you have a different belief, she actually feels threatened. If someone believes differently than I do, I'm okay with that. It doesn't de-value my own opinion. In this conversation she tried to convince me of her opinion, saying his confirmation would chip away at womens' rights, especially as it pertains to abortion. Then she cited a photograph on the internet of a baby, where Kavanaugh said: this is who I'm going to protect. Let's assume that this is actually real (because I couldn't find that picture on the internet). She said he's anti-abortion. And that is a huge step backwards for women. I'm taking a wait and see approach. Sure, he's Catholic, which automatically means anti-abortion. But it's like being upset over what "might" happen. And then being upset when others don't agree with you. I'm okay with anyone disagreeing with me, but I find it really odd that her and I don't agree on much at all. And again, because I spoke first, I wasn't automatically taking an opposing viewpoint to her.

Are there some people who don't outgrow that defiant teenager stage? Or is there some other underlying disorder happening. My mother was diagnosed with NPD and she also got very agitated when anyone disagreed with her. I don't care that my daughter's opinion is the opposite to mine, I'm just trying to understand why her opinion is always the opposite to mine. The other thing I noticed is in the rare event that we agree on something, it seems to pump her up massively. When I form an opinion on a matter, it comes from research, contemplation, observation. I don't usually take into account other peoples' opinions when I form my own opinion. It wouldn't be MY opinion if it is based upon other peoples' opinions.

Does she have any other behavior that makes her sound like a teenager? What you've posted so far doesn't seem so abnormal, in fact I think it's pretty common. Perhaps she just cares a lot about certain topics.

My daughter is 30 now and it doesn’t seem like our relationship ever progressed from when she was a teenager and she was always doing the exact opposite I wanted. I haven’t even begun to figure it out. I am realizing, however, that I take everything she does very personally. Lately I have tried to step back and look at the big picture. Maybe she’s just being herself and maybe that’s what I am having trouble accepting. I have a hard time accepting decisions she has made with her life.

I learned to accept my daughter's decisions as being none of my concern very long ago. Recently, she went to Europe by herself, stayed in hostels, and one day her drink was spiked and she had a two hour blackout. The cell phone protector screen on her phone was broken and she was sexually assaulted, the evidence was there the next day on her body. She remembers nothing of the incident. This was what we talked about wanting to prevent. So we had these discussions with her a few times before she went there. But it still happened. In my mind the only way to prevent this was to not go to Europe alone. But I said nothing, because that's how to respect another person's decisions. It did result in her experiencing a great harm. I agree a thirty year old's decisions should be her own, even if it means great harm comes to her. But I'm more concerned about how she over identifies with Christine Ford. She automatically believes Christine Ford and hates Kavanaugh, based upon her recent experience. It's as if I say "I don't believe Ford," to her it means I don't believe her. They are two different people and they are two different events. It appears to me she's experiencing victim identification to a degree that distorts her perspective.

From what you shared, it sounds like you need to find out how your daughter feels about things before you offer your take on things. When she asked you what you thought, you could have simply said you are undecided and then put the topic in her court where she can share how SHE feels about it.

When you are a mom/parent, often you can get used to helping your child figure things out, but then you have to learn how to SLOWLY change that role and begin giving your child a chance to express their feelings and thoughts on things. A lot of their opinions are going to reflect their generation too, and often that will differ from your generational feelings about things.

Yes, I can believe that and I have noticed how her generation has been encouraged to feel that way too. All the more reason to work on finding ways you can give her the opportunity to share her feelings and opinions first. She has been encouraged to feel threatened by beliefs different from hers, so the best way to handle that is to counter act that by being willing to "listen" to her talk first and you don't even have to actually offer your opinion either. Her age group is being encouraged to believe your age group is trying to silence her age group. So the only thing you can do is make an extra effort to at least present yourself in a way that is telling her, at least with you, things are not always like that. The truth is, this challenge isn't new, and it's long been called the "generation gap" that occurs between parents and their children.

Actually, if you look at the movies from the eighties and the generational messages that took place during the time this was supposed to have taken place when it comes to this Ford vs Kavanaugh situation, you can actually see the generation gap in that generation compared to their parent's generation as well. The movie "Sixteen Candles" actually does a good job showing that generation gap tbh. So, my point is this generation gap is always there.

Your daughter has a lot more pressure to be lock step with her generation with all the social media pressures she faces too. I believe you don't have as much problem as she does when it comes to being more flexible with differing opinions, you did not have the pressure she has in her generation, so that alone is different. So, as I mentioned, you will have to figure out ways you can counter act that, did not say it was going to be easy either. Yet, a way to help is find ways to put the ball in her court and "listen", after a while she may be more open to listening to your opinions, that will take time however given the way our overall society has encouraged lack of trust in your generation.

I hear you. I understand. It sounds very complicated. I don't think I could actually do what you suggest. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think I will be able to do that successfully. This happened another time where she brought up a very controversial subject. When I didn't agree with her, she got very upset. She was visiting us on vacation as we lived very, very far from her in another country. So we didn't want to the visit to be about her being upset. My husband and i agreed to avoid talking about any serious subject where opinions could be opposing. The next day the first thing she did at breakfast was bring up that exact same controversial subject. I just looked out the window and said nothing. I had asked my husband the night before to change the subject if a controversial subject came up. This worked and the rest of the visit was pleasant. The problem arises when we avoid talking about anything serious or deep. Which means we can only engage in light fluffy subject matter with her. That makes her bored and she starts talking to her friends on her phone, which begs the question: why have a visit at all?

YES, this has been a very common reaction with a lot of women who experienced some kind of sexual abuse situation. They feel a connection with Ford and have a very hard time seeing beyond that connection with her and have been taking it very personal when they need to understand their own experience is actually separate from Ford's.

For myself, I have experienced sexual abuse/assault AND also being accused of doing something I never did. So I could empathize with both individuals. Your daughter has some "healing" to do, given what you have shared, it's understandable she would feel the way she does about this specific situation.

I love your response. It's helpful and insightful. Empathy and compassion are important, but over identification is, in my opinion, counter productive. Your comments have helped me Thank you.

Good point Open Eyes!

Clairerobin: you seem to have an issue with NOT saying your opinion - seems to be a huge struggle for you to do as Open Eyes suggested, and I wonder if owning that would make the situation less tense.

I think... I have an issue with NOT saying my opinion also if other people are strident enough and if I disagree - so I am commenting this from sympathy.

One thing that is changing for me as I grow to be an old lady (!) is understanding how pleasurable it is to blend and bond, as opposed to always differentiate. I have genuine motivation to hold back sometimes when I wouldn't before: but also when I speak my mind I am going to be heard.

It seems important to notice when my motivation to be heard and my motivation to blend is the higher priority. Owning my needs in that is different from controlling the behaviour of others? Still reflecting....

Checking out whether you need to get along or to express your opinion is more important for you with your daughter...

Methinks your daughter might be more like you than you think in being unconscious of the value of blending and bonding behaviour. Wry smile there.

Ha... do I write that I agree with your daughter supporting Christine Ford (for different reasons)? Do I need to argue, or do I want to bond with you because getting wise about how I create conflicts is more real than a political discussion ?

My own change with my mother to daughter relationship happened in my early 20's. It evolved at that age as opposed to devolving. I was certainly releasing some apron strings as I made it to 30 and had 1 son with another on the way.
I grew from a mixed political background which by the time I was reaching 30 I had moved to center/unenrolled/independent.
And with my sons I tell them no politics nor religion talk at the dinner table nor in public. Those are heated topics that can bring out the best and worst in people and a respectful decorum matters above everything else.

It raises my eyebrow when a meme becomes gospel out there in social media land. My understanding that the idea of roe v wade ever being overturned is about the most far fetched piece of rubbish out there. And there's valid arguments, statements et al out there supporting that. Too much historical precedence...

Sorry you're going through this.

Thank you to everyone for your helpful words. I think I can find the balance between blending or speaking my mind. When opinions are opposed, she shuts down because there's nothing to talk about. Fluffy talk is boring and pointless, to both of us. And I know when we've hit that point, because the cell phone comes out and the wall is thrown up. Which means I'm there to listen, but then she gets annoyed if I sit there and say nothing. It's difficult for me to have empathy for Christine Ford, since I don't believe her. I suppose I could have deflected the conversation into something similar where I could have said the words to my daughter that she clearly wanted to hear. So I need to learn when the question is "what do you think mom?' The real question is: how can you be supportive to me with regard to this issue?

Kudos to all on this thread for being so civil, including your daughter who is capable of logic and reason. If you want to read my thread The Unfriending you’ll see fallout about the Kavanaugh hearings from people who can’t be civil.

IDK if your daughter habitually opposes you to prove you are separate people. Maybe she loves a good debate.

May I ask how did you get your NPD mother to the psy to be diagnosed? Trying to put my mother in front of a mental health doctor would be like the priest throwing holy water on Linda Blair.

Lol. My mother was very, very nice to most people. To them, she was a model mother. She was toxic and caustic to her children. I have one sibling who completely cut her out of his life 25 years ago and has never looked back. He displayed zero symptoms of NPD, he did it to remove himself from a toxic relationship. I tried to be in her life, but she would cut me out of her life for up to two years at a time for a minor or even imagined misdeed. One time she cut me out of her life for two years because we were driving around and I asked her if she was hungry. She said "no, I'm not hungry." Apparently, since she wasn't hungry, I wasn't supposed to stop at McDonalds and eat. I stopped to get food and I ate. She completely stopped talking to me as I ate and was seething mad. She wouldn't talk to me for two years after that misbehaviour on my part.

You see, I was disagreeing with her. My hunger opposed her non-hunger. And since she wasn't hungry, I wasn't supposed to eat. I ate without her approval. That was me being defiant. I didn't say anything except "well I'm hungry, so I'll grab some food from that McDonalds." That's it. Offence: eating. Sentence: Two years of anger.

When she was about 79, I had chosen to remove myself from her toxicity permanently. By that time, she was unable to hide her disorder from others. My cousin actually said "your mother has become extremely hostile and mean." I said "she was like that from when I was five years old." He realized for the first time that she had always been toxic to her children. Then he said "I guess it got harder and harder for her to hide it as she got older." This was the first time anyone other than me and my husband (and siblings) knew what she was really like.

My husband continued to visit her 1-2 times a year. One day he went there and saw that she was sprinkling pepper on the floor, just inside her apartment door so she could "prove people were coming into her apartment and stealing her money." She hid money all around her apartment. Then I think she would forget where she put it and would believe someone had somehow gotten in while she was away and found her hiding place. I called the local hospital, told them what she was doing and requested a visit from a psychiatric nurse. All this time we didn't know what exactly was wrong with her.

The nurse called me to report her visit and findings and said:

"If you are waiting for your mother to love you, it's never going to happen. I shouldn't tell you anything about her, as that's against policy, but you seem to need to know what's really happening. Your mother is the most manipulative person I've ever met and I've been a psychiatric nurse for many years."

Then this nurse proceeded to tell me how my mother gave her a list of things to do for her: groceries, pick up my prescription, etc. When the nurse told her she wasn't there to do those things, my mother grew hostile and angry. Case solved.

She told me my mother had Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which meant she was incapable of love. At that exact moment my life made sense for the first time. It wasn't that she didn't love me, she didn't love anyone. In addition, it explained why she was so manipulative, controlling and downright nasty to her own children. It wasn't just about not being able to love another, she was toxic, nasty and unbearable. The times when she cut me out of her life, in retrospect, were blessings of time away from the nastiness.

My daughter operates slightly differently. When she turns on you, she remains in your presence, but makes her disapproval known by throwing a wall up around herself and shutting you out. it's obvious that's what's happening. The most recent incident caused her to stay almost completely silent for 2-3 hours. I'm okay with that. If you want to stay silent that's fine. I chose to talk to others in the room and if she wants to sulk, that's okay. It's her loss, not mine. But the way this all manifests is similar. It all boils down to not disagreeing with her. That was the only way to get along with my own mother. Agree with everything she says.

In my opinion, there is no positive way to interact with people who have NPD. At least that did not work for me with my own mother. I think my daughter has a much reduced case of NPD. She's very nice to her co-workers and friends, but not so nice to us. And she let's us know she's not going to be nice, because she doesn't feel like it. I can't imagine her going to dinner at her friend's house and then throwing on her earbuds and watching a movie on her phone and completely ignoring her friend.

I think what may work for me is to keep the visits infrequent and short. And figure out a way to side-step issues that might end up with her throwing up a wall around herself. I'm simply not smart enough to navigate this ground without accidentally stepping on a landmine. I'd love to help her, but I don't think I have the ability to do that.

Thank you to everyone for your comments. And I apologize to anyone who may have read this thread and was hurt by my words. I'm just trying to figure out how to be at peace with everyone.

That’s quite a traumatic experience your daughter went through. I’m sorry that happened. I never give my daughter any kind of advice. Not at all. She makes her own decisions and I don’t interfere with that. I never discuss politics at all with her either. I would rather not hear her opinions and I don’t share mine either. If I do ever discuss my opinion on anything I’m very low-key and minimal about it. But it’s almost never politics. That’s not going to end well if you already know up front that you will disagree...

I understand how if a person doesn't believe Ford, it's hard to have any empathy for her. That being said, there are individuals who experienced a sexual abuse situation that have been triggered by what they saw happen in that hearing. There are individuals who see their OWN abuse and to them it felt very personal and it was upsetting to see the outcome. I think what is needed for each of these individuals, including your daughter is their OWN healing and being able to talk about what happened to THEM. Some of this INCLUDES their own personal guilt about how it happened to them, their inability to trust "themselves" as that is what does take place after experiencing some kind of abuse. Your situation was hard in that you warned your daughter and as you shared she went ahead and did what she wanted to do, had her own sense of confidence which she found out did not stop her from becoming a victim herself. I have a feeling that your daughter's joining up with the many women who supported Ford, were doing so in an effort to regain a sense of empowerment. If you keep that in mind first and foremost, you can separate your opinion about Ford and focus on how your daughter is "feeling" and her need to gain some sense of empowerment as being the reason behind her need to bring this topic up. In how it's PERSONAL to her and her effort to find a way to regain her personal sense of "empowerment". Understand?

What I just explained above it how to achieve that.

I understand what she wants and needs. I just don't think I can provide that, as it amounts to being a therapist of sorts and I don't feel like I possess those skills. The best I think I can do is try to circumnavigate the landmines. As selfish as it sounds, I'm more concerned about maintaining my own healthy mental state. If I don't manage to do that, how can I help anyone?

[QUOTE=clairerobin;6295845]My daughter is going to be thirty soon. We got along great until she became a teenager. I thought that phase had an ending. it's the phase where they are embarrassed to be with you. They think parents are clueless. And everything you do embarrasses them in front of their friends. She's still in that stage.

In addition, we are "magically" always opposed in our viewpoints on everything. She asked me what I thought about the Kavanaugh Confirmation. So I got to talk first. I said I didn't believe the testimony of the woman. I didn't believe her story, for a variety of reasons. This really upset her. As she believed the opposite. You would think this is why I'm posting here, but it's not. I'm posting here because this unpleasant teenager phase they all go through hasn't gone away with her. She's actually unpleasant to be around, because she's so deeply entrenched in her beliefs. If you have a different belief, she actually feels threatened. If someone believes differently than I do, I'm okay with that. It doesn't de-value my own opinion. In this conversation she tried to convince me of her opinion, saying his confirmation would chip away at womens' rights, especially as it pertains to abortion. Then she cited a photograph on the internet of a baby, where Kavanaugh said: this is who I'm going to protect. Let's assume that this is actually real (because I couldn't find that picture on the internet). She said he's anti-abortion. And that is a huge step backwards for women. I'm taking a wait and see approach. Sure, he's Catholic, which automatically means anti-abortion. But it's like being upset over what "might" happen. And then being upset when others don't agree with you. I'm okay with anyone disagreeing with me, but I find it really odd that her and I don't agree on much at all. And again, because I spoke first, I wasn't automatically taking an opposing viewpoint to her.

Are there some people who don't outgrow that defiant teenager stage? Or is there some other underlying disorder happening. My mother was diagnosed with NPD and she also got very agitated when anyone disagreed with her. I don't care that my daughter's opinion is the opposite to mine, I'm just trying to understand why her opinion is always the opposite to mine. The other thing I noticed is in the rare event that we agree on something, it seems to pump her up massively. When I form an opinion on a matter, it comes from research, contemplation, observation. I don't usually take into account other peoples' opinions when I form my own opinion. It wouldn't be MY opinion if it is based upon other peoples' opinions.[/QUOTe)

I'm sorry to hear that! Sometimes I wonder myself.

I understand how challenging it can be to learn how to separate how this specific situation came about, how it was handled, and how you felt about it along with how your daughter has reacted to it and has shown a need to bring it up with you. I think it's also very unfortunate that it became so political and how that added an entire twist on it making it even more difficult. Adding to that how today this is constantly coming up with all the social media today's world brings to each of us. Your daughter's age group faces a lot of constant exposure, and IMHO, a lot of our current society is getting OVER exposed constantly repeating without giving these challenging situations a break.

Your mother's behaviour sounds unbearable. I'm sorry you had to suffer that.

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Yeah I agree. It's a situation where it's constantly brought to the forefront in order for it to change. But then it ends up appearing bigger and worse than it needs to be. For some younger females it may appear to be something to be really indignant and personally outraged by, constantly. And it happens at a time in their life when they haven't developed a broader perspective. So it seems massive to them. I tried to provide my daughter with some perspective, since many women think if you don't believe Ford, that means you are on Kavanaugh's side. I don't have a side. I think it's possible to not have a side, even if I don't see Ford's testimony as believable. I actually think there are no sides, we invent them and then choose sides. Then we have a world divided in yet another way.

Growing up, we used to sit around the dinner table or in the living room and I remember discussing the monumental and fundamental ways in which women's lives had changed and become empowered. From my grandmothers down to myself. I don't recall a sense of outrage nor indignation. There definitely wasn't a sense of complacency by any means. A willingness to listen, truly listen is necessary when wanting to express opinion as it's fundamental in debate.
Why does that feel so lost when out watching media/social media?
Had a friend describe it as the "trophy effect" of a generation. She's a strong woman herself who has done so much on a local level.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying, all of it. Yes, when someone has a problem with Ford's lack of facts it is automatically assumed that person has taken a side, and in this situation a political side. IMHO, the need for each victim to find a way to regain self empowerment is being "hijacked" for political reasons and I find that very disturbing. For myself, I can find that triggering in that to me it's too much like "grooming". It's unfortunate in that human history most definitely shows us "it works" and that human beings are extremely malleable. It seems that human beings have always been drawn to having "sides" and X vs Y. All our current technology is being used that way too. I personally think it's too much and it's hard when the very way our society has grown to have to use this technology is also something that makes society vulnerable too.