Warning, some of this could be graphic. If any of it is inappropriate, could a moderator please help me out in rewording it?

I know for sure I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. There were multiple instances and more than one perpetrator involved. I know that the cases involving touching were definitely abuse. What I'm wondering about is, what about sexually inappropriate comments? Even if they aren't meant to be? I had several step-fathers. Only one of them *outright* abused me sexually, but I can look back now and remember things that definitely should not have been said in front of me. If you were a CPS worker or a judge, would you call the following situations instances of sexual abuse?

1. Mother's husband #6 had me on his lap (I was 15) while he and my mother were flirting verbally. Finally he told me I'd better get off his lap, because he was getting... well... excited. He actually named what was happening to him. I now feel like that didn't need to be said to me, and he should have just asked me to get up. Same step-father used to remark, while hugging and kissing my mother, that she was, shall we say, showing signs of excitement, and named what he could feel her body doing. I won't say specifics, like he did. I *am* trying to be appropriate. This man never touched me or approached me, but was his overtly sexual attitude toward my mother too much in the presence of myself and my younger siblings? Come to think of it, is 15 too old to be lap-sitting like that?

2. I changed my name later as an adult. In childhood I answered to Robin. When we would visit my grandparents, my grandfather would call out cheerfully when he saw me, "Well, it's Robin Redbr***t!" Never mind that I hated being compared to the bird all the time, which is one of the reasons I changed my name. As I got older that "br***t" part made me feel uncomfortable, and I started to answer in a tone of embarrassment, "None of your business what color my br***t is." He also used to recite a poem in front of us, "Ding-dong bell, (kitty)'s in the well. Who threw her in? Little Johnny Grin. Who pulled her out? Big John Stout." It was meant to be a children's poem, but it was another synonym for "cat" that he used there. I told him once that I didn't think it was quite right, in front of children, and he answered, "I can't help it if people get their minds in the gutter." No doubt he would have said the same if asked about "Robin Redbr***t." By the way, this grandfather did end up putting his hands on me inappropriately, when I was 14. I resisted, and he later told me he was just testing me to see if I'd be a good girl and fight it off like I'm supposed to. You know what? Barf at that. When he put his hands on me, that was blatant SA, but what about the words he said? Even if he didn't mean it like that?

3. Then there was mother's boyfriend, when I was 16. He lived with her for 3 years but never married her (thank GOD!) so he wasn't an official stepfather. His main game was verbal and emotional abuse, trying to put me down and make me feel bad about myself. For example, he ripped into me for getting a score of 99, not merely on a test, but as the grade on my report card. But there was one thing he told me, in response to me getting understandably angry and yelling "Sc**w you!" He laughed and answered, "If you were the last girl on earth, I'd rather (satisfy myself)."

Of course my mother just sat there without a word and let all of this happen. With that last exchange with the non-stepfather, she and my siblings all just laughed like they were watching insult humor in a 1970's sitcom. In fact, when it stopped, my brother actually asked for it to start again so he could hear more insults.

How much of the above is also SA?

[bluemountains]

(((LovebirdsFlying)))

I can't answer which of these were SA, but having similar experiences, I know the pain and helplessness you have felt. No matter what type of abuse you label each as, these were incidences where you were taken advantage of, and I am sorry for the scars that these bad people caused. I know for me, the worst part of all of the abuse I suffered was that my mother was never around to protect me. I was able to forgive the family members who abused me, but even seven years after my mother's death, I still have not completely forgiven her-unhealthy for me, I know, and I'm trying.

My prayers are with you as you deal with your past.

Bluemountains

[Sannah]

These men shouldn't be saying sexual things to children. It is really inappropriate.

[Open Eyes]

(((((((LovebirdsFlying))))))))

From reading your post I can tell that your mother was picking the same kind of man constantly for partners as her father, your grandfather who spoke inappropriately to you. Now lets think about what that means, your mother grew up with that kind of language and even some of the touching as considered normal and acceptable. Even your brother's quest to have more raunchy verbal jousting to continue expressed that he too was raised to feel that this is acceptable behavior, he clearly is going to be a chip off old grampa's block.

I think one of the problems as well is that often comedy is simply giving permisssion for sexual intrusive comments to be ok to discuss within families. If we just consider " Two and a Half Men", I cannot believe they allow that on regular television. It has gotten to a point where that kind of joking is so acceptable and many think nothing of it.

With all our constant exposure to a more sexual display and wordage and inuendoes, many men think it is perfectly acceptable to be open in trash talking and often think that most young girls at the age of 15 are just used to hearing and knowing about these kind of interactions and even think they are somewhat numb to it. And in many cases these days it never ceases to amaze me what young girls do know about things that used to be considered very private and should not be uttered in public.

It is clear that you are upset by being around people who disrespectfully talk trashy talk around you. I am sorry that you had to be exposed to that. Your mother, sadly, was never taught how to be a lady, or present herself appropriately to her children. And this attitude was based on how she was raised along with what society deems acceptable today.

I am sorry that you had to be in that enviornment, you do deserve respect and privacy. But your going to have to develope that on your own and make a decision that when that kind of behavior takes place you will just leave the room. I think that you have people around you that are not very intelligent and all they can seem to muster in their interactions is mimicking not only their upbringing but what they consider normal due to what they watch on TV. The behaviors you are addressing are inappropriate.

Get yourself an education, your doing good in school, continue to do so, get to college and work your way towards being around people that are educated and have better manners and respect. Break your mother's cycle of picking the wrong men over and over. I think that your just an intelligent young woman that clearly outclasses those around her. Your the one that has to break away from this behavior, others around you clearly have no respect.

I wouldn't call it sexual abuse as far as it doesn't appear here that anyone has truely trapped you and molested you. But you are dealing with inapproprate behavior and you now need to remove yourself from it as much as possible because it is a kind of abuse. You DO deserve to have respect and be a strong person.

Open Eyes

it doesn't really matter what we here think...we are not trained professionals. if it bothers you & feels wrong or inappropriate then it is wrong. period.

find a t, counselor, minister someone who you can talk to about this & see if you can make some sense of it.

should you have been protected...by all means yes. & the failure of your mom to do so is sad & wrong.

there is no "official scorecard" for what actually is sexual abuse...ie. if this happens then yes, or not then no. there is much gray area. but that said..inappropriate is just that....so like i mentioned..if it felt wrong, it was wrong.

good luck.

[Yoda]

Your mom sounds very dysfunctional and her bad choices led to unhealthy treatment by her men.

I can see why you find your grandfather's behavior particularly upsetting because family is supposed to care for you. But how could you trust him when he was so inappropriate by his sexual references when you were a child? And touching you when you were 14 is sexual abuse even though he played it off as "testing you".

All of what happened has to have some effect on you. I was a victim of childhood sexual assault too and I buried it for years but finally I am angry. I can't tell you how you should deal with your feelings because I struggle myself.

Just know that your feelings are validated and what happened to you was wrong by so many people in so many ways.

[Open Eyes]

((((LovebirdsFlying)))) Stumpy is correct none of us are professionals, we are offering our personal oppinions. You can always speak with a school councelor if your struggling and there is a councelor available.
Open Eyes

[needfixing]

not to be rude, but your ma has issues!
is there family you can live with?
(((hugs)))

Thanks for the replies.

Some necessary information here: Some of you seem to be under the impression that I am still a teenager and still undergoing these things. No, I'm in my 40's and they are well in my past, but I am working on getting over it. Sometimes things like that leave you scarred for a long time. I am in counseling, and I plan to bring these questions up in my next session. In fact, I'll probably print this thread out for use during that session. Also, the verbal instances I described are over and above the blatant, unquestionable SA that I know did happen. Here I'm telling my story. If I'm wrong to do that on this site, I sincerely apologize. This may trigger. Please proceed with caution.

I was repeatedly molested by an adult neighbor when I was 5 years old. He was the only perpetrator who went to jail for what he did. I wonder if the fact that he was also the only perpetrator not related to me, is a coincidence, or is it that we must protect family at all costs?

When I was 6, an uncle put his hand where it didn't belong, and then asked me not to tell anybody. For years I excused that one, telling myself he was just a child too, but the truth is he was almost 13. That's old enough to know better. If he had the foresight to ask me not to tell anybody, he knew it was wrong.

When I was 12, mother's husband #4 molested me on several occasions. My mother didn't know it at the time. I waited until after she had left him before I told her. She really should have had him put in jail, but for some reason I can't figure out, she didn't. In fact, three years later, she almost got back together with him. She told me she had confronted him and he denied everything, saying it wasn't possible that he would do such a thing. Then she said, "I told him, I think she hates you, and he cried." Like that was supposed to make me feel guilty? Oh yeah, something else: She got angry at me for mentioning it in front of my younger sister. She didn't want HER traumatized by knowing it had happened to me. Never mind the trauma it caused ME. Apparently that wasn't important.

The year I was 14, *both* grandfathers had a turn at me. The one, my mother's father, you already know about. The other, 87 years old and feeble, I was helping to turn over in bed when he grabbed me somewhere he shouldn't have, asked me if I liked it, and I said no. I dismissed that as him not having his full mind anymore, but then it turns out I wasn't the first young female relative he had grabbed like that. I was, however, the last, because he died not long after.

Age 15, I was abducted and raped by a stranger on my way home from school one day. He was arrested, but not for rape. According to the police, I didn't fight hard enough to make it a rape. His charge was sex with a minor. (This was at a time when rape awareness classes were telling women to be passive, because he might hurt you if you put up a fight. So then we do exactly as they tell us to do, only to be told we weren't raped because we didn't fight?) That was Florida in 1980.

During college, I was acquaintance-raped by a man visiting my roommate. I had gone to bed but the lock on my door malfunctioned, and he came in. I pretended I was asleep, hoping he'd get bored and go away. Again the police said it wasn't a rape, because I didn't physically fight him off. I tried to tell them how I'd been repeatedly molested as a child, and therefore was conditioned to freeze up, and it didn't matter. "You're an adult now. You had the right to resist him, and you didn't." So they didn't even arrest him. Kentucky, 1988.

About 7 years ago, my daughter's (now ex, for obvious reasons) boyfriend raped me forcibly. The police photographed the bruises on my arms where he held me down. I did tell him no, and I did fight. But they still didn't consider it a rape, and didn't arrest him. He claimed it was consensual, and the police decided they couldn't prove it wasn't. Texas, 2003.

I am now afraid that if I am ever raped again, no matter how hard I fight or what the physical evidence, I won't be believed because I "have a history of crying rape."

As for my mother, she didn't escape that fate. I didn't know it until adulthood, but one of her uncles molested her and every one of her four siblings of both sexes. This was my grandmother's brother. I don't remember ever being alone with him, so probably the family wasn't allowing him to be alone with children, knowing what he would do. But I have sat down at many a Thanksgiving dinner with that man present, as if he was just any old normal uncle. Why did they never have him put in jail? Why was he allowed in their homes? Because he was family? So maybe my mother grew up thinking that this was... not good, something to be avoided, but not something to prosecute unless it's from outside the family?

my bad. i apologize.

i thought the abuse was happening now...& you were younger. forgive me. sometimes teens write in asking about situations they are in & ask for advice. you sounded young ..i am sorry (this from a 53 year old who just got 'carded" in august when buying some beer)...

it does help to sort things out...& i am glad you have someone to help with things.

again. i apologize.

Originally Posted by stumpy

my bad. i apologize.

i thought the abuse was happening now...& you were younger. forgive me. sometimes teens write in asking about situations they are in & ask for advice. you sounded young ..i am sorry (this from a 53 year old who just got 'carded" in august when buying some beer)...

it does help to sort things out...& i am glad you have someone to help with things.

again. i apologize.

No need to apologize. And I've been carded at a late age too. It actually feels good. Especially when it happened in front of my daughter. Her eyes opened wide, and she told the clerk, "This is my MOTHER!"

in august i got carded for being under 21 (at 53) but then last week i got let by for the sr citizen discount...i normally would have said something but ya know that 20% off did come in mighty handy...now if i can only remember what i had on & wear it every tuesday when i go into that place to get a sandwich maybe i'll get lucky again (ok their prices are really high so i don't feel that bad...the mark up is kind of steep to begin with)

in college i went with my father into nyc to get tickets for a womens basketball game at madison square garden. we stopped at the world trade center which had not been open that long. now my dad was older..he was 67 or so...i was a sophomore in college. he told the cashier he was a sr citizen & that i was under 12. i am short but not that short...& certainly don't look that young. it worked tho...grandpa & i went up to the observation deck that day.

it was interesting to see & hear his take on things as he had been born in like 1912 & what he recalled on how the streets had changed. ...from horse drawn wagons & stables and such. one of the few postive memories i have of him.

Quick note. Today I was visiting my daughter and grandchildren. My grandson is almost 3, and my granddaughter is 1. My daughter left them with me briefly as she stepped out for a few groceries, and I put them down for their naps. I changed my granddaughter and put her in her crib with her bottle. Then I asked my grandson, who isn't trained yet but he can talk clearly, if he needed to be changed. He didn't answer, and then he fell asleep quickly. I didn't check him or press the issue, because at his age, I was afraid of being misunderstood since I'm not Mommy and he doesn't see me every day. When my daughter came home, I asked her if he was generally aware when he needs to be changed, and she told me, only sometimes. I explained to her that I hadn't checked him, and why.

Obviously given my family background, I am not real sure where the boundaries lie. If my grandson very certainly did need to be changed, and I was there and his mother wasn't, I'd change him. But I didn't feel comfortable making an issue of it, if he wasn't going to be forthcoming. What do you think?

[wackywidow]

Do not hold all theis c**p inside of you. Get it out as soon as you can. I held on to some SA for over forty years and it dominated every aspect of my life. Now that it has been dealt with as much as it can be, I am now free to be me. Good luck and prayers. WW

[Open Eyes]

Sorry Lovebirdflying, I thought you were only in your teens as well and in your first post you didn't describe the sexual abuse you described in your second post. I only advised on the information you gave, sometimes young teens do get confused about what abuse is and post questions similar to your first post here.

I am sorry you went through so much in your life. wackywidow is right, it is important to get that all out with your therapist. I bet it was good to just release it all here. It took me years to talk about my own abuse. As a matter of fact I was in my 40's when I talked about one, that was years before I felt I could talk about it. It is hard to talk about.

So glad your getting therapy, I can't blame you for not feeling sure about boundaries.
Hopefully you will learn in therapy.

(((((hugs))))

Open Eyes

[bluemountains]

I'm fifty and in the midst of dealing with my CSA now. I have been in other therapies over the years, but this is the first time I am allowing myself to deal with the past. It is so hard to take the steps necessary for healing! As my T said, I was not ready, so I can't beat myself up for not dealing with this and being honest before.

Btw, I just got carded yesterday! Maybe it was Target's policy, but I prefer to think that the cashier was just not sure...

Bluemountains

50's the new 21!

we are a mighty good looking & young looking bunch of folks if i do say so!

[Sannah]

You are checking to see if your thinking is appropriate?

Originally Posted by Sannah

You are checking to see if your thinking is appropriate?

Pretty much, yes. I would like second opinions.

1. I know the incidents in my second post were SA, no question. I wonder about the incidents in the first, if they are SA as well.

2. I am unclear about the boundaries concerning my grandson who will be 3 in February. It's more his age than his gender, but I felt awkward about checking his diaper. Since I am not his Mommy, and I don't see him every day, I didn't want him to misunderstand or feel unsure about what I was doing.

Oh, and a light went on about my mother. Her uncle had molested her and every one of her siblings, and no one protected her. Later, when my stepfather molested me and her reaction was inadequate--even to the point of almost getting back together with him later--was it because she didn't KNOW she was supposed to protect me? Did she think this happened in all families?

[Sannah]

I think that you are just being extra careful and respectful about boundaries (with your grandson). Nothing wrong with that!