expectations

I have talked some about this on other threads this morning, so I thought instead of bringing down other threads I would put this crap where it belonged.

Bipolar disorder by definition has affected me by sending me and my adrenaline into overdrive - hypomania- and then plummeting me into depression. that's what it does. That's all that everyone thinks it does to me. So whats the big deal then? I get happy then sad. That's what everyone around me thinks! Do they know it has caused me:

Social impairment - All through junior high, high school and my adult life I have been socially impaired cuz of this. I have never been included in a group of friends. the most I have ever had was one. I have never been to a school dance or had the opportunity to learn any of the many lessons most people learn growing up. I ****ing hate that.

Emotional impairment - I have really bad emotional problems cuz of Bipolar. They are not what they should be in situations. I don't know how to deal with them. Never learned how cuz they have always been so out of control. I cycled for years. I have had very little down time from the symptoms of Bipolar Disorder. I can handle mixed cycling like a pro. that's my big ****ing reward through all of this emotionally. But I can't handle a normal array of them.

Behavioral impairment - My behavior, cuz of the social and emotional problems, is also a problem. I don't act like I should in most situations. I am like a damn freak in a social setting and I just want to escape them. I should live alone but my wife carries me along. I have strength for her, but not when she is not around.

I was thinking about this reading the post 'those who dont have it, don't get it'. Man, that's the truth. Anika had asked me if I could see happiness in my future. Considering the above, Ha! how could anyone of us really see that? Am i just a freak here too? Surely I'm not the only one that has emotional and behavioral and social problems here. I feel mine are very severe. it's like it's a dangerous thing to build up self esteem cuz that takes a lot of ignorance and ignorance is something that doesn't last. Ugh... it's off my chest. thnx

Dan, I was actually asking it you thought it was possible to be a good person and still find happiness. Because it sounded like you thought maybe it wasn't. It sounded like you thought that having happiness meant to quite caring about anyone or anything, being an "all in it for myself only" Kind of thing. I was just saying that I thought people can still achieve happiness and still care about the world and the people and problems in it.

I can agree with you that hope can sometimes cause pain. And that caring is hope. I am very afraid tho, to live in a world with no hope and no caring. Hope isn't black and white tho for me. But I can understand where you are coming from also.

Your are not a freak. You sound like you are tired, and hurt, and rightfully so.

I don't really have friends in real life either. I am on disability, I have suffered greatly from behavioral problems, social problems, cognitive problems ect. all very much because of bipolar. To the point of even been held in a jail cell. My only point is that you are not a freak, you are quite understood here, I think a lot of us can relate. Even if we might appear to be very different sometimes to the eye.

I don't think Bipolar is just a mood thing, I have said in other threads that I don't like the term "mood disorder" because it does not encompass all that Bipolar is. It implies it is just mood thing, we all know that isn't the case.

I think a lot of people really don't realise the impact Bipolar disorder has. They seem to understand the depression part, and sometimes the mania, but that's about it. It's just like PMS right? You're just a moody person, right? But it really isn't like that.

I have a lot of the same issues you mentioned. I can empathise!

I dont believe self-esteem takes ignorance... For me, I had to learn to love myself, all of me... That meant getting to know me, in essence and me as a byproduct of bipolar. I've always been intensely self-aware, but my initial awareness led to a subconcious self-loathing, and that destroyed my self-esteem before I ever really developed any.I do believe that knowledge is power, but it depends on how its applied. Wasnt easy, its still a WIP...

I'm not invalidating your struggle, just sharing my POV

Self esteem isn't ignorance, hmm. I am really trying to understand how you came to that conclusion. Like when you say that feeling good is fake. I am trying to understand why you think that. If you feel it at the time, then what makes it fake?

Your thought patterns and perception (and seriously Dan I mean this in a nice way, and please don't take it as anything but genuine concern) seem to be very negative. You asked how one can possibly see happiness in their future, all things considered. Perception, perspective, healthy thought process... it's not impossible.

Taking your power back, knowledge like Trippin said. Mindset.. If I think that nothing will get better, I think that I am hopeless and helpless, think I cannot do anything about it, think that I have no choice, think that I am beyond repair. What's the common theme in all these things, the common thing seems to be what I "think", if I keep thinking like this I just might very well "think" it into becoming so, or at least it is going to seem like it. To me that seems dangerous. You didn't say these things, I did, I'm just using an example.

You mentioned open mindedness in the other thread, being open minded means we keep our mind open to other possibilities, maybe you could apply that to some of these things here. If you open up to the possibility of things getting better, life being different, maybe you will find a path through this. It won't just fall into place by itself tho, and will take time, and lots of effort. You'd have to expect bumps in the road, it's never gonna be perfect. At the first sign of chaos you can't close the door again, or it won't work.

I dunno Dan, I'm really just trying to share with you some of what I have learned and some of what has helped me. I guess in hope that it can help you too. I know you don't want hope at the moment, but I can't help feeling it.

Like Trippin again, I learned a lot of stuff from people here at PC, and it didn't just click at first, I kind of thought they didn't know what they were talking about, or that I couldn't apply it to myself. It took me a long time to shift my mindset and my life.

I hear what you are saying. But I ask you this... is mania bad?

I'm on two meds just because of the hypo and one for the depression and anxiety... so wouldn't it mean that mania is bad? So when I feel it, how can I possibly just enjoy it knowing that what I am feeling is bad!!!??? It takes a lot of ignorance for me to feel good anymore while i am manic! I don't have ANY self esteem when I am depressed and when I am level... ha! When I am level and symptom free, not cycling, or anything, then I just don't know what I am supposed to be or who for that matter.

So yes, self esteem for me takes a lot of ignorance, cuz when I feel it, it's cuz of something bad.

all the different ways that I feel i am medicated for meaning that they are bad. So... why wouldn't that mean that I am bad. I have to be medicated for who I am after all.... so how could that possibly mean that I am not bad???? ignorance = forgetting that I am bad and defective.

hmm,

Maybe I am not the best person for this. My opinions are sometimes strong.

I'll try to break down what you said, but If you don't like what I say,that's perfectly fine. I honestly don't expect everyone to agree.

You do not "have" to be medicated. You "choose" to be medicated. Maybe because you feel you need it, maybe it helps you, maybe not so much. Maybe the dr's believe that meds are the best or only way of treatment. But it's a choice anyway you slice it. You could just as easily choose not too either, see. I am not saying to not choose meds, merely that it is a choice, not a "have" too.

We are told by dr's that we "need" them, " life long" ect. Wonder why we don't feel like it is a choice sometimes? But really it is a choice. And acknowledging the fact that it is, gives you power. You wouldn't be a victim of having to be medicated, you would be choosing to use medication to help yourself. See how the perspective changes the situation?

Is mania bad? For who? For me, yes. Others seems to enjoy it. I don't, I get dysphoric mania and there isn't anything particularly enjoyable about it, nor psychosis for that matter. Other seem to enjoy mania, some are quite productive, some don't crash afterwards, some can manage it, they might not say it's bad. But I can't generalize, only answer for myself.

Feeling good isn't feeling manic. That might be what people say here, until they do something they regret, or come down from it. Basically feeling good.. means feeling good and not being ill at the time. I'm gonna say it like this even it isn't a popular opinion... there is a big difference between feeling actually good in real life. And feeling a "fake" manic good.

You were talking about how when you feel good that it's fake, well ya maybe if it's mania, just like depression. It's not fake in the sense that you don't feel it, of course you do. It's fake in that it is out of place, from what normal you would feel if the bipolar was not hampering with your mind. Bipolar created those feelings, your normal mind did not. Feels real, but it is almost just an illusion.

You choose medication to help deal with Bipolar, not that you have to medicate because of who your are. There is much more to Dan than Bipolar. Show me one human who would not be considered "defective" in someway. And who is determining who is defective and who isn't?

You are not medicating because you are bad, or because this is bad or that is bad. The point of the meds is to try and keep yourself on the ground long enough to learn how to manage better with other tools as well. Not to medicate the bad out of you.

I have bipolar, but I am not defective. I don't care if someone tries to tell me I am, I am merely a human. I would seriously question anyone that tries to sell the idea that some humans are defective, and some are not. All those people you see that appear to be perfect, happy all the time, no troubles or worries. It's not real, that's fake. They all have their own stuff on their own plate. You just don't get to see it from the outside.

I hope that makes some sense, I sometimes jump around a lot, writing isn't my thing.

With bipolar, if you really want to get anywhere, you have to take some ownership, some control, power, and some self accountability. If you surrender all that, you will feel like a victim. Not a very self empowering place to be.

I don't believe that there is much more to me than my issues. They made me who I am today.

what you said makes perfect sense.

We all have issues. Who doesn't? I mean after all we live in world where we have a-bombs and buy water in bottles. I think compared to global ****ed upness, we all come off pretty well.

And as for "needing" to be medicated.... those are mind altering substances. People did "drugs" all history long. AND I am not using the word drugs in pejorative sense... it's just things that alters how we feel. Heck, deep breathing, trance music or food could be considered mind altering. If meds help you, then great. It is your way of dealing with living in your skin and in the world... but that should come to you and be your choice.

we cannot tell you who you are. Doctors cannot tell you that, and if they do, they are manipulative quacks. You need to find that yourself. And it's up to you how to get there.

and you know what? I feel the best after vodka and redbull. I am outgoing. I can speak Russian. Or at least I think I can. I even develop sexuality that others find appealing as opposed to my usual ice queeness.

That doesn't mean I should be stoned/drunk all the time.

It's just *different* and maybe it's not good or bad. If your meds were "working" for you in making you feel BETTER and more comfortable, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Back to the social awkwardness. I used to feel that way too then, I realized the self pity doesn't work for me. I make the awkwardness work for me. I've learned to be comfortable in my awkwardness. I'm happy with myself and I'm very funny because of it! Which leads me to be rather well liked.

Secret? Everyone feels like they're socially awkward or has doubts about themselves sometimes.

Oh, and medications are not a requirement. If you don't want to take 'em, don't. There isn't much evidence that they actually work for most people with "bipolar disorder" anyway and even less as prevention. Ever wonder why all the books talk about "break through" episodes? Why people are always adjusting their meds? Look it up.

Dan - I'm in a growly mood so i'll keep it short. You're a good guy. No mania is not bad or good (depends on the person, place, thing and temperature). If you could consider the good times mania as part of your personality and real experiences that are yours (no one else's, and not belonging to bipolar's grip), it could help you accept the whole person that you are. We are all good and bad, light and dark, push and pull. Acceptance is not false, and it builds self-esteem. Today may suck but it will pass, and tomorrow there's a chance for it to be better.

If your definition of defective is based on the fact that you are 'disordered' by label, does this mean that the physically disabled population are defective too? No offense to any people with disabilties intended over here, just trying to understand Dan's perception... The universal number 1 thing that WILL bring ANYBODY down and KEEP them there, is self-defeatist talk... I hear that you are suffering, I understand that you're in pain, but please Dan, dont give bp anymore power than it already has.

I understand feeling defective and medication being "needed" to alter yourself. Bipolar even though it has colored your life it's not you.

This I'm still trying to learn:

It's a little like needing glasses all of your life then finally getting them in your adult hood. Yes not having glasses have positively and negatively effect your life but it's not you. It does effect your whole life emotionally, socially, and behaviorally because you have learned to cope "without your glasses". Now it's time to unlearn all the coping methods you used. I tend to have high self-esteem but low self-worth.

It's not fair to compare phsyically disabled people to Bp. No one expects a man with no legs to walk. No one expects someone in a wheelchair to climb three flights of stairs. But that's not the case with mental illness. With mental illness, we are expected to fall within the norm of things, and we are looked upon with shameful eyes when we can not perform to the expectations of the norm.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree about this. If it really was okay for me to be who I really am I would have never had to reach out for help. It would have been okay. But it wasn't. and I wasn't. So now, yeah, I feel that those things that I reached out for help about are bad. Because if they werent, then why did I need the help?

So yeah, the ups are bad for me and the down is bad for me. I can't accept and enjoy something that is bad like that. I am also quitting smoking right now. That too is like the same thing. It is bad and I can't enjoy it anymore, I know it will kill me before my girls get married. I smoked two packs a day and I was really feeling the effects of it. It was restricting my breathing something aweful and I know two people now that have died due to complications with smoking at the rate that I was.

But I can't quit Bp. I feel the same way about bp as I do smoking. How could I not. It's an illness.

I didn't mean for this thread to get out of hand. I really thought others felt this way too. I'll stop now.

You completely misinterpreted the point I made. When did I refer to others expectations of u OR a disabled person? frankly I have no idea how you got THAT message from my post. Idk why you perceive this thread to be out of hand, is it becoz some disagreed? Anyway,I was merely asking u to cut yourself some slack, that 'defective' is not a beneficial adjective to use when describing yourself. But u know what,I know when someone is twisting my words to suit their mindset, we can chat when you're ready

I am not pursuing this frame of mind. It is how I feel, but I'm hoping to change that. I might have twisted things... I do that a lot. I really respect you and I'm sorry if that's what I did.

Its ok Dan, I've also had some pretty twisted ways of seeing things... I know you didnt choose this mindset, it kinda like a bp default, but I'm trying to show you, that you CAN choose a different 1. And no, it wont make everything rosy, but it'll make things a hellava lot better in going about coping with this hand we've been dealt

I'm starting to see that, that whether I like it or not, I can't play victim. I might not have chosen the midset, but I have to deal with it. I think I had given up, the easy way, when I started this thread.

It's good to have people that don't let me get away with laying down and giving up. Thank you!

We all have bad days Dan. I have them too. Maybe when Im having one you will be on and can snap me out of it.....

It is so good you want to get your power back! Im really happy that you are trying.

Remember Dan that the man with no legs has to ask for help too. So do we with MI and everyone else. Doesnt mean its cause anything is bad. We all need help sometimes. its only human.

will do my best

Its my pleasure, you are most welcome my friend thats what we're here for, to help and support eachother, designated cheerleaders so happy that you've decided to try and give it your best shot, thats all anyone can really do. And at the end of the day, no matter where or how you are, you know you did your best, you didnt just handover your life and accept whatever. And That in itself is powerful.