[HD7970GHZ]

Hi everyone,

A girl in my DBT group gave me her number two weeks ago. We began chatting and we shared a lot over the span of two weeks. We only texted... (She is married - and I had no intention whatsoever for romantic stuff)

She and I see the same individual therapist.

I got emotional last night and messaged her in emotion mind - and admitted that I was beginning to get attached to her and would slow down the texting because of it... She supported me through my dysregulation last night.

Today she went to see her individual therapist and she sent me a text after or during her session - saying:

"Hey - I hope you are feeling better today. This is really hard for me to say but I think it's something I have to do right now (based on where I am in my struggles right now)...... You asked me if you were crossing my limits. I realized that texting you has become too much for me to deal with. I know your struggling and I encourage you to reach to [[[INDIVIDUAL THERAPIST NAME]]] about that. I would appreciate it if you would stop contacting me."

This was out of the blue.

What does this mean?

Prior to this - she was messaging as much as I was - there didn't seem to be any hard feelings or negative associations between either of us... I asked multiple times if I was crossing limits and she said no and that she enjoyed our texts...

I should note that she is in pretty rough shape, at least from my perspective. She dissociate alot in groups and I know she truly is struggling - but it was just the timing of everything that set me off - not to mention that she sees the same therapist as me and I keep thinking my therapist told her to stop talking to me... I feel like I have been abandoned - again...

I got hurt by this. Badly. I am taking it personally and I am having suicidal ideation now. I don't feel like I have the energy to try making relationships work anymore...

Thanks,
HD

[Crazy Hitch]

Ughhhh this sucks (((HD))))

I made a thread about not being able to speak to friends. Gees it's hard.

I feel your pain I really do.

Woah!

Gees!

What she wrote in that text to you!

What the hell!

You DON'T deserve that. You are better than that I've known you for ages HD and I know that you're a great person. You're worth so much more than that.

I am not suprised in the least that you have been hurt by this.

It's really hard.

Just know that we are here to support you.

Here for you always HD please remember that:

[Gavinandnikki]

It is about her, not you. She needs to keep all of her resources for herself. Try and think of it differently.

There is a reason friendships between group members is generally discouraged. It can get complicated, and ultimately, she is doing what she needs to do to take care of herself. It isn't about you; it is about her realizing she doesn't have the personal resources to engage in that kind of relationship right now.

[HD7970GHZ]

Thank you for the replies.

Initially I thought it was primarily to do with me - but I think on second thought - it is more to do with her... Perhaps (like you guys mentioned) this was her attempt to look after herself and in so doing - she had to make the decision to stop communicating with me because she knew it would be hard for me to make that decision...

Still hurts though. I really liked her - in a companionship sort of way.

Interestingly enough - I graduated high school a decade ago and one of the group members was in my grade... She and I communicate a bit - but I set boundaries with her because I sense that she is VERY clingy. I do it because I don't want to hurt her... In retrospect - perhaps this is why this other girl did the same to me... Though it is very hard to swallow that pill.

Thanks
HD

[Crazy Hitch]

Yeah HD you're totally right - I think that the issues are hers, not you at all.

Doesn't make the pain any easier though.

[Gavinandnikki]

Originally Posted by Hooligan

Doesn't make the pain any easier though.

But it should, at least a little bit.

[Crazy Hitch]

True point Gavin thanks for that.

I agree - in theory yes, it should make the pain easier ....

I was just going by HDs comment with the intrusive thought: "I am having suicidal ideation now"

[Seeker101]

HD, the way I read the text your group member sent you was a very kind and heartfelt way of resetting her limit. I could see she didn't want to hurt your feelings, and at the same time she had to do what she needed to do for herself.

And it's okay to be sad about losing a friend you had come to rely on who helped you through some tough things. Just keep yourself from being parked there. Reach out to your T and get the support you need.

She acted out of incredible strength, and you can, and probably do, too!

[HD7970GHZ]

You guys and gals rock. Thank you so much for the replies. There is plenty for me to reflect on now.

Gavinandnikki: I suppose the realization that, 'she did what she had to do for herself,' helps me some in knowing it is not entirely my fault - and to tell you the truth - I suspected she was going to do it for the sake of her own sanity. I also did tell her that I was becoming attached to her and that I would need to set boundaries and limits of my own if we were to continue texting. So in a way - yes - the thought that she did it for both herself and myself adds a subtle layer of understanding and content...

BUT - as Hooligan said - it does bring up suicidal ideation and that is the unfortunate part of all of this. I got attached to her VERY quickly in the span of a couple weeks and I just lost myself in it. It's so amazing how fast it happens! Like unbelievable. The feeling that I can send a text and get a reply within minutes - that was what this was. It was that drug addiction feeling - and I know she experienced it with me as well.

The thing that is bothering me now is that we both have the same individual therapist. We are both struggling with our therapist and we shared our circumstances and some of our dislike towards her - so now there's this worry that both of us would go and taddle tale... I asked my therapist about this and she is a VERY experienced therapist and she said that she has never experienced this situation before... Once again - she said it was a perfect storm... (Seems that the perfect storm keeps following me around) The biggest challenge I have in trusting my therapist is that this girl sent this text just after or during her session with our individual therapist... I can't get the thought out of my head that my therapist intentionally had her set limits and abandon me for malicious reasons...

Interestingly enough - I read through about 1000 or so text messages and the second message I sent was, "Hey! I just want to be sure I'm not crossing boundaries. If you change your mind and don't want me to text please just say so. I will not take offense."

Oh the irony...

I have a question for you all.

After she sent her final text message I replied a few times (which I regret). I'm wondering if you can all let me know if it seems like I was unreasonable in my responses:

She wrote: "Hey - I hope you are feeling better today. This is really hard for me to say but I think it's something I have to do right now (based on where I am in my struggles right now)...... You asked me if you were crossing my limits. I realized that texting you has become too much for me to deal with. I know your struggling and I encourage you to reach to [[[INDIVIDUAL THERAPIST NAME]]] about that. I would appreciate it if you would stop contacting me."

I replied:

"..."

"Forever?"

"I need clarification about this... What did I do? If there's anything good that can come from this tell me what I did wrong so I can learn from it."

"I can respect your limits - but please don't do this without giving me some idea what I did. Please don't."

"I am so sorry."

"Good bye"


Let me know what you think...

Thanks,
HD

[shortandcute]

That's not abandonment--that's setting boundaries!

[Seeker101]

HD, I can hear your disillusionment over this. While it would be nice to get an explanation of "what you did wrong", she may not be able to share that with you right now.

From my own personal experience, there are times I just need to completely disconnect. Because I'm BPD, I'm not the most resourceful when I do it either. If she's like me (and I'm not saying she is), she may just be so overwhelmed that everything may feel like it's crashing in. She may be disconnecting from many people. It's hard to tell. My life long friends know that when I just stop communication and fall off the face of the earth, that I'm going through some stuff. Most of them don't even take it personally anymore.

I hope this helps. It's always hard when something like this happens. Does your T let you contact them after hours? If so, I would call, or leave a message. If they're not available, try calling a toll-free crisis hotline. That's what they're there for.

[HD7970GHZ]

Hey thanks for replies again.

Yeah I haven't replied to her since thursday - when she sent the final text. I won't ever again.

My therapist doesn't offer after hours phone calls to me - but she does to her other clients... (This is one of my issues with her) Initially she didn't even tell me she offered them until this girl that I was texting told me about them. I have been asking for after hours phone calls for quite some time but my therapist has said that I need to learn how to do phone coaching before she's willing to offer them to me... (The problem is they are a unionized DBT public health care system - and they cannot actually work after hours. She is the only therapist in the DBT clinic that offers after hours phone calls, with a risk that they may get into trouble if someone found out.) Ironically - all of this could have been prevented had I had the ability to call her that night instead of bother a fellow borderline with my issues... (I think so anyway)

And to be fair - I didn't bombard this girl with text messages - she and I mutually shared and mutually replied back and forth. Not once did she give me any indication that I was texting too much. Perhaps she just lacked the interpersonal skills and assertiveness to say so. Either way - I see it differently now than I did when I sent those texts in response to her final text.

If she approaches me at group - what should I say or do?

I will NOT be the one to approach her. But if she ends up coming up to me and apologizing or something - any advice with how to respond? I almost feel like switching groups because of how awkward things might get... And I have a funny feeling that she is going to like and spread gossip about me to the others in the group. I am the only male in the groups...

Thanks,
HD

[Seeker101]

HD, in the middle of that last post, I think you got it. She may have lacked the assertiveness and interpersonal skills to say that she was getting too many texts. Remember, one of the things that Borderlines can do is be accomodating to the point their own comfort levels are affected. (....Raises hand...)

Wow, about going to group. It probably will be weird. In fact, I would prepare for that. You may want to consider coping ahead and wrap your brain around radically accepting her and the situation as it is. You know this person better than I ever could, so from a mind of radical acceptance, what could you say in response to her, or how could you support her, or even give her her space -- and still be true to yourself?

Remember, if this becomes an issue to the group, and yours and the group's healing, it has to be addressed. I don't remember what it is called. But like you said earlier, it may boil down to you or her moving to a different group. And, if you can work through this whole thing, and still stay in the group, imagine the incredible personal growth you will have gained!

You've got at least the weekend before the next group session. Remember, you have access to all the skills. Sounds like you have homework!

As far as the non-existent after hours access to your T, that's disappointing. Personally, I have no qualms about calling my state's crisis hotline. The counsellors there are very good, and they have helped me when I've decompensated. My hope for you is that they are just as good in Canada.

[HALLIEBETH87]

We're not allowed to have friendships in out DBT group outside of group. If we want to get together we have to ask permission from all members and we cant talk about our issues or target behaviors.

[Kimaya]

Hey, HD. Sorry you are going through this. I avoid relationships with BPD just naturally... I have one real life friend who is likely high functioning and we mesh well with our communication styles.

Some common problems with a border friendship:
- either one or both will be too needy... I tend to run into the needy ones somehow.
- we have limited resources, like some posted above she may be drained on others, or disconnecting to refuel. Just the act of saying 'the end' may greatly relieve distress.
- borders both crave and fear friendships becoming close because we need love, but our own needs must always come first in every situation or it causes distress. Even the fear of becoming dependent or having any - and I do mean any single instant - of feeling obligated can be too much depending where the border is at.

Basically, one text is all it might take... Do any of the above sound familiar to yourself? They should, as you are border too.

I immediately set boundaries on meeting new people, in a professional atmosphere - both on me and them, I could easily become the needy one when I've met that awesome ideal or need to feel safe with someone to hold my hand. It keeps me from getting hurt or hurting others.

Try not to let her decision bother you, her lack of tact or effort is due to her own needs as a border... keep it in mind going forward when trying to connect, with a border or not.

*hugs*

Edit - if she does approach you I recommend not bringing the topic up ever. I'd be normal, act as if you couldn't be more pleased, and gently keep the door closing... If she has issues with a few texts then I'd get boundaries up in person too.... With tact

[HD7970GHZ]

Thanks again for replies.

So in my individual therapy session last week - I shared some of the texts that the girl and I sent back and forth to one another. My therapist looked teary eyed and said she understands how I would be confused and left wondering what happened... Personally I think my individual therapist (whom the girl and I share) advised the girl to stop communicating with me. This thought hurts me a lot. It destroys what little trust I have in my therapist...

Last week in group the girl did not show up... It got to me. I had mixed emotions about her absence and told myself it's because I am a horrible person... At the end of group I cornered the group facilitators and asked if her absence was my fault. But even if it was my fault - why would they tell me? I'm sure they know it would hurt me to know the girl is skipping group because of me and that it would cause me enormous amounts of shame and guilt... They quickly said no... However my psychiatrist (one of the facilitators) said the girl stopped talking to me because I was sharing information about self harm. We did indeed talk about self harm - but I was not the first to bring up the topic and both of us mutually shared information about all topics. It was not one sided in the least. But it still made me angry hearing this from my psychiatrist because now I get the idea that I need to prove myself to the DBT team and get out of the spotlight for appearing like a 'typical dude.' I read through all the text messages and in all honesty I cannot discern what happened that led to her not wanting to talk anymore... But that insecurity that maybe I hurt her or offended her in some way just eats me up inside. I have learned nothing from this because she literally did not tell me there was a problem... Perhaps there wasn't a problem that I was bringing to the table - perhaps her decision was entirely due to her own issues - but I do not like that idea for the sake of learning and of comforting myself when anxiety strikes...

Tomorrow is group. I have not heard or sent any messages back and forth. I hope she is there...

Halliebeth87: I think now I would prefer it to be that way. Our DBT clinic said they have removed the limits because they think it would be a good experience to get to know and interact with fellow borderlines outside of group. They said they had those limits in place in the past but the group members felt like they were treated as children and sought each other out anyways.

Seeker101: I took your advice and prepared for the last group. The girl did not show up. It was probably for the best but it still got to me. I will be preparing for tomorrow and using skills. Thank you for the reminder! The whole idea of tolerating until our comfort level is exceeded is so true. I sort of felt like that was happening but then again the girl would text me out of the blue if I did not text her first. It was a mutual desire to connect and share and whatnot. I think if anything - she may have felt this way on the final day (indicative by fewer and shorter replies) but that is entirely up in the air because she still didn't say anything about it... I know I put up with people all the time until I can no longer handle it. Haha. We both can raise our hands there. But this just seemed strange because it was via texting. And she did say no. She was assertive and did state her feelings and limits at times. It was very strange to me and something still doesn't sit right. I wish I could share the entire text log and get some advice!

Kimiya: those list of things that borderline sufferers do rings so loud and true. Thanks for sharing that. I appreciate the reminder that making friends with fellow borders can be a recipe for disaster.

I have another friend from high school in my group. And an issue arose last week after group that I really do not like.

So she went on vacation for two weeks. She got back and went into hospital during a group session. She and I texted back and forth and I told her that I would come and see her in the hospital... However, upon thinking things through I discovered that the best course of action would be to NOT associate with her outside of groups because of how sensitive and vulnerable she was at the time... She was at last weeks group and afterwards she had an individual session. I decided to sit and talk with her for a few minutes. I apologized for not seeing her in hospital and let her know that I did not mean to offend her if I did. She then gave me a package of chocolates from her vacation! This did not sit right with me... I felt like she was thinking too much about me and that it was a sign of unhealthy behavior. Like this was very kind to do BUT I felt like it was too much and it totally crossed my boundaries. I took them to be polite but I don't think I will eat them as I don't want to associate too much emotion towards her... Anyways - then she got up and said she had to use the bathroom - totally a mixed message to me - like she was telling me to get lost - so I took it upon myself to say goodbye and then out of nowhere she said she wants a hug. I was so uncomfortable! This is strange because I have an inner need and strong desire to be hugged... But this just crossed my boundaries big time. I said no - but she followed me a ways and then I said okay and we quickly and shortly made a hug. That was that. It was very insightful to me. If this is anything like how my therapists feel when I ask them for hugs then I understand. She was so clingy it turned me away and made me feel like running away and never looking back... Interestingly enough - I sent her some texts after and told her I would never hug her again. I also made some plans to potentially go see a movie sometime with her and I told her it probably wasn't a good idea. I think I might have hurt her feelings but I know for a fact that she totally misinterpreted my efforts to be kind and polite during her time in hospital as something more. I will not blame her for this because I should have known it would happen...

For some reason I feel disgusted with myself. I can't get this idea out of my head that the DBT clinic perceives me as this typical dude that goes after vulnerable women. But that's not at all how it is! This girl I went to high school with and she approached me, the other girl gave me her number and approached me too. I never did the reaching out.

Anyways. Thanks for the replies and I will keep you updated.

Thanks,
HD

When I read your posts, I'm hearing a general distrust of therapists and a general theme that people are setting out to hurt or abandon you. I'm wondering if this is warranted--is it reality, or BPD? I understand that a therapist may have, at one time, caused a lot of hurt and that is difficult to move on from, but in order to have effective therapeutic relationships, there has to be some trust.

What I'm reading is that there was some boundary-setting. Maybe your therapist did tell her to stop texting you, but that shouldn't be a cause to distrust your therapist. That therapist is just as much a therapist to the other person as to you, and has to remain impartial and keep the best interests of both of you (really, everyone in the DBT group) in mind. If texting was somehow a detriment to this other person, then it was well within this therapist's responsibility to guide her to a more healthy resolution which sounds like it was to stop texting. In reality (and I know it's difficult to see this), drawing that boundary is in both of your best interests.

I agree with some of the previous posters...when I was in DBT, we were not allowed to be friends outside of the group, and I really preferred that. I think it just makes it easier to focus on therapy while in the group, makes the boundaries easier to define.

[Fuzzybear]

I'm sorry you've been abandoned. .
I do feel that she was (trying to be) kind and respectful in her message, at least she wasn't trying to be cruel
Although I totally get why you were hurt, you didn't deserve to be abandoned (and out of the blue like that! I too know how that feels )
(if there is any negative gossip and if anyone believes that, idk, except that I would hope most have the sense and "maturity" not to feed into any crap like that ) I haven't read all the thread yet but wanted to let you know I care

[HD7970GHZ]

Misskeena,

I wish I could explain the whole story. Here is a short version with a lot of it left out...

I was upset with my first DBT therapist and left some very rude voicemails. The next session she abandoned me without warning and I threatened to kill myself. I was escorted to hospital where I was forced to undergo psychological examinations. I said no initially to the tests because it seemed like an invasion on my rights and I demanded to know who was requesting them. Turns out my DBT therapist and the program director had made up some nonsensical document that claimed I was faking borderline and they tried to label me with antisocial personality disorder! (Complete and utter nonsense) So - they made the request for a psych evaluation to be done on me - claiming that my emotional reaction to my therapist abandoning me was all fake, that I had threatened to kill them... (All false)

I will not go into how triggering this was to read on paper... But I attempted suicide in hospital after reading this.

I was mistreated in the hospital because of this. Everyone treated me as though I was a psychopath. They offered no support or validation. Everyone in the hospital was under the spell of this document and it made me absolutely sick and disgusted at the human race and the mental health field. I experienced what it was like to be under the control of the unethical mental health field.

I managed to get my hand on this document by pure luck, otherwise I never would have known what was going on. From this point forward I will be reading every single session document written about me. I was abandoned AND betrayed. I did not fake my illness. I have had borderline for years, hence I was in DBT to begin with. I was convinced that the entire mental health field was corrupt. I did the psychological examinations because they said it was the only way I could get back into DBT - but that there was no promises I would get back in even if I did them...

I was the only one unphased by the results.

Primary Diagnosis: Borderline Personality Disorder
Secondary: Avoidant Personality Disorder with Dependent Personality Disorder traits
Anxiety, depression too, etc.

So - I was referred back into the program. The hospital staff immediately became warm and understanding.

The worst part of this is my family didn't believe this was going on. They invalidated my experience and literally told me to deal with it... That was the most painful of all.

When I got back into DBT - I had an angry outburst in the initial session with my psychiatrist, my newly assigned therapist and the program director. I let them have it. I was fueled with anger and disgust. They knew nothing about me seeing this document they had made - it was all just a mess. Unfortunately I was so angry I told them I should file a lawsuit and have them all investigated by an ethics committee.

That was my mistake... And - it has severely effected my treatment.

So - I requested to hear these voicemails that apparently led to my being abandoned by my first DBT therapist... Apparently they had copies said the program director. A month goes by and finally I say I would like to have copies of them or I will find someone who will get them for me. Program director says we will meet on the next monday and I can listen to them in her office... I show up on the monday and she says she has bad news: she has lost them... They no longer exist. But then she said she has one left. I ask to listen to it - it is a voicemail I left before I saw the terrible document they wrote - where I speak highly of the DBT team and apologize... It was so perfectly coincidental that they only have that ONE specific voicemail - and I just had to laugh. My trust waned.

The reason why this was so bad was that those voicemails weren't that bad. In fact: what I said on those voicemails could have been very bad for the DBT clinic. They were definitely NOT even close to enough for my therapist to abandon me. She was a professional who was trained in dealing with borderline clients - and she works at a DBT clinic that specializes in behavioral modification. I made a mistake leaving voicemails in emotion mind - but all she had to do was tell me not to do it again and give me some form of therapeutic reason not to do it again... It was against everything that DBT stands for. Rightfully she should have warned me - set her limits - and allowed me to learn from my mistakes and taught me how to prevent it from happening again.

Since then, I have caught the DBT clinic breaking the law and seriously messing with my health records. My therapist altered documentation and filed session notes three weeks late so she could, 'selectively,' include only the parts that would stand up in court as defense for the DBT clinic if I happened to file for a lawsuit. Once again, a long story. I caught my therapist doing this. Ever since we have both been guarded and careful with boundaries and developing trust. It's a wonder I can still walk into that building.

My therapist is lying, denies everything - and I have to live with it. They have threatened to kick me out of DBT if I cannot work with my therapist - making it seem as though I am paranoid about all of this! It is absolutely unbelievable.

OH - my new therapist is a psychologist and ever since I began there - she's been trying to diagnose me with something other than borderline. It is unbelievable guys and gals. It is despicable.

All one has to do is read my files from the past 7 years of therapy to see that I am borderline.

My therapist (in my mind) told this other girl not to continue talking with me for malicious reasons. Sure there was legitimate reasons for not continuing to talk to me because of her borderline issues - BUT - like I said: there is no reason I can think of as to why the girl would stop talking to me - especially when her final text was sent during her individual therapy session...

There is SOOOO much I have left out.

I have been messed with big time. My advice: Order all your mental health records and sift through them at some point. OR record every single session.

Thanks,
HD

Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ

Misskeena,

I wish I could explain the whole story. Here is a short version with a lot of it left out...

I was upset with my first DBT therapist and left some very rude voicemails. The next session she abandoned me without warning and I threatened to kill myself.

I'm not able to read all of this (I'm sorry, I'm in the middle of an assignment at the moment, just taking a break). I did skim it a bit, and I know that what I am going to say may be kinda frustrating:

If a client leaves rude voicemails to a therapist, I don't feel that it is abandonment for that therapist to terminate the relationship. Therapy is kind of a contract. The therapist builds a rapport and trust with the client, provides a service and will not abuse that trust and, in turn, the client will build a rapport and trust with the therapist, accept the services, be open with the therapist, and not abuse that trust either. As people struggling with BPD, it is really easy for us to ride the emotional roller coaster. Therapists know this going in, and this is what they do. At the same time, they are human and have limits.

I believe I actually signed a contract at my last counseling office stating that, if I breached certain behavioral parameters, they had a right to terminate their relationship with me as a patient. I believe I signed that contract with each office I've been to. And I did breach those parameters at two of the offices and, boom, I was terminated. And after the second one, I didn't do it again.

I'm really sorry that this happened to you, and that reading your file was so triggering. It sounds like there are a lot of things that were frustrating about the experience that were out of your control, but I'm wondering what positive things you could do in the future (since we can't change other's behavior...)

[HD7970GHZ]

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it.

Truth is this DBT clinic is corrupt. Very corrupt. And it has broken the law. I just got my health records and the one document that led to my suicide attempt has been altered. Sounds crazy eh? Well it's true. That's just an example of what's going on. This is bigger than I imagined and I am suffering as a result.

Right now I want to die.