If my depression never goes away...

Because, again, living a life of no depression and obtaining the pleasurable status of a god is something that important to me that I am willing to sacrifice anything to obtain it.

I do believe severe depression does "rob" us of things.

here is a whole thread on what people feel about it.

http://forums.psychcentral.com/depre...sion-does.html

I don't think it is whining and moaning it is just a fact of it.

Including well being and happiness?

That doesn't make sense.

It is very unlikely to happen. Especially with your approach to life.

Bleh. OP is willing to give up their dreams if they don't get 100% pleasure. No way you can blame depression for that.

I think it would be being a perfectionist. At first when I didn't have this depression, I didn't have this attitude about pleasure. Now that I have been through depression, I realize just how important pleasure is and how awful it is to lose your pleasure and I have become a perfectionist about pleasure as a result. I am completely fed up with depression and I feel that if I can't have the perfect pleasure I once had before I had this depression, then my life including me is worthless. I feel that if nothing can be perfect (just in the sense of me no longer having depression), then everything is worthless and I would sacrifice everything or end my life if the depression never went away.

No I was speaking in general. And it would apply more to long term severe depression.

The OP does say he is taking meds, exercising, and taking omega 3's. So despite his attitude he must have some hope of overcoming it, at least in part. I agree with you Venus. Struggle is an inevitable part of life and we should pursue our goals and dreams in spite of it. Many of us have to lower our expectations and be more realistic given the nature of the disease. But that does not mean we do not seek a better life. Happiness and joy are very fleeting for me, and I have heard many others here say the same thing, but contentment and peace I value very much and experience a lot of. Many years of hard work has allowed me to achieve a level of contentment and inner peace that I am very proud of in spite of the worse depression. Even when i am in it.

things that happen to us change us. one has to adjust. it's worth it. better few moments of pleasure and happiness than none at all (while obsessing about missing pleasure).

true happiness comes when you let go. It doesn't have to be perfect. Hoping for that will only set you for disappointment....

You know what i think about meds... that they by itself cannot bring happiness. Or correct skewed thinking. That taking them and hoping they will magically make **** right will not work and is waste of time.

OP worries me a great deal. They would profit from some therapy and some... life fullfillment.

I am not suggesting that taking meds, exercising, and Omega 3's will work alone. Probably not. But it points to a willingness to try to overcome it, which means maybe the door could be pried open further.

That is better than just waiting for life to magically make him a god like human.

Matt since you are doing those things are you willing to explore other methods of overcoming depression so that you would be able to pursue your music?

I am afraid life does not have absolutes. Everything is relative. There is not such thing as absolute pleasure or absolute depression. Life is an infinite number of wave lengths on a spectrum. Black and white thinking does not serve us well.

One thought that I have frequently is that everyone has "something." Although I am an atheist also, I will use this analogy, "everyone has a cross to bear." The older I get, the more I am convinced that everyone is dysfunctional and laden with some kind of challenge.

As you probably know, the actor, Michael J. Fox, has Parkinson's. People are always commenting on his unwavering optimism and attitude in the face of all his struggles. In a TV interview one night, he tells of a legend he heard. In the legend, God has everyone in the world standing in a giant circle. He tells everyone, you must go into the world with some issue to overcome. However, once everyone has thrown their issue into the middle of the circle, each may choose the issue he wants. It ends with everyone choosing the same issue they already had.

Yes, this is a fictional story, but it originated from somewhere. What burden would you choose if you could - physical abuse, sexual abuse, autism, cancer, personality disorder, kidnapping, wheelchair, death of a child, war veteran, Parkinson's? What alternative would you choose to depression?

Of course, if you believe that other people do not have a burden or cross to deal with, then you can't apply this idea. I don't know how old you are, but the one more lives, the more one realizes that others do not have it as well as it may appear.

Depression is horrible, and I struggle with it as well. But are other disorders, diseases, and problems less horrible? I don't know. You are clearly a very intelligent person. I can't relate to the inferior/superior constructs, but I do know that I often want to escape my pain because it feels unbearable.

I don't think there is such a thing as perfect pleasure all the time. You seem to have idealized your life before depression in this way.

I too agree that the older I get the more I realize that everyone has the proverbial cross to bear. It is often very hard to see from the outside but people are experts at hiding it.

Here is scientific proof that pleasure is the greatest thing a human being can have. In this video, from 4:20-5:01 you hear the speech from Robert Sapolsky that proves this. He says that depression is the worst thing and backs it up. Therefore, since depression is the worst thing, that obviously means pleasure is the best thing above any other part of you (such as intelligence or anything else) and that losing anything else in life would hardly compare.

Here is the video:

I have watched it before. I have a lot of respect for him and for Stanford research. I don't know that you can say one professors view on the matter is scientific proof. I agree with him that at least in my case it has a very biological basis. I agree it is a very debilitating and horrible disease. I have experienced it many times. I don't know that I can say it is the worse disease on earth because I cannot really compare my suffering to others. I do not walk in their shoes.

He speaks of pleasure in a very hedonistic, animal instinct sort of way. I think there are more to humans than that. For example your love of producing music and sharing it is much more than a hedonistic pursuit of pleasure. It is on a higher plane than eating or sex. A more evolved form of pleasure. It takes intelligence and creativity to do that. You get contentment and satisfaction from it. Pride that others would like it. Those are all attributes other than pure pleasure.

Let us assume that what you say if totally true. Depression is the absolute lowest and pleasure is the absolute highest. A life of depression is useless and of no value.

The question still remains, given that, what are we going to do about it??? You are avoiding that question.

I think it would be being a perfectionist. At first when I didn't have this depression, I didn't have this attitude about pleasure. Now that I have been through depression, I realize just how important pleasure is and how awful it is to lose your pleasure and I have become a perfectionist about pleasure as a result. I am completely fed up with depression and I feel that if I can't have the perfect pleasure I once had before I had this depression, then my life including me is worthless. I feel that if nothing can be perfect (just in the sense of me no longer having depression), then everything is worthless and I would sacrifice everything or end my life if the depression never went away.

- - - because the universe is the way it is - perfectionism does not, cannot exist - therefore, the request you are asking, seeking is spurious and possibly delusional on your part. you are basing your reasoning on your feelings, which to begin with are imperfect. if a runner decides in his mind to run a 3 minute mile - but a human's body is not actually capable of doing such a feat - does that make the runner's life useless? maybe to the runner - but is his desire based on rationality and the limits of his physical being or on his feelings and desires? And, as you can see - are imperfect. perfectionism is a way to control - but there are just too many things out of everyone's 'control' for anyone to ever be 'perfect' - i.e., completely without depression. this is why people learn to live with 'clumps' of happiness or 'specks' of pleasure. restrict your music, 'it' can wait forever to be written - whether you ever achieve perfect pleasure ever again. but what a waste for everyone else - and you yourself - one clump is better than none. {take care}

If I were to see someone with chronic depression doing nothing with their lives but complaining and feeling sorry for themselves that they can't experience full pleasure in life, I would not frown upon this person at all. I would completely understand what it is like to have chronic depression and that it gives this person every right to sit there, feel sorry for themselves, and complain. I mean, who wouldn't complain and feel sorry for themselves in this situation? Especially if this person is like me who views pleasure as the most important thing and only wishes to no longer have depression and be able to fully enjoy life again. I suspect very few people actually wouldn't complain and feel sorry for themselves in this situation.

What I would say to this person would not be something harsh and inconsiderate of their suffering such as "Stop feeling sorry for yourself and do something with your life." Instead, I would say something like "This attitude you're having is very unhealthy for you. Please see a therapist and try your best to do things in your life because that is likely to make you eventually feel better."

Even simply going up to a person with severe depression and saying "What can you do to make the best of your life despite your depression" is cruel and inconsiderate of their suffering because the depressed person was likely seeking a complete escape from their depression and no longer have it ever again. Therefore, this depressed person was hoping for other people to say something such as that this person will completely get over it and never experience it again. So by stating the quoted message of "What can you do to make the best of your life despite your depression," that denies and restricts this person into a world where they have to deal with their depression and make the best of their life anyway despite of it which would make this type of person feel worse knowing that he/she can not (and perhaps never if the depression is chronic and lifelong) experience full enjoyment in life again.

Therefore, advice to give depressed people such as myself would have to be that of false hopes by telling these people that they will completely get over it and never experience it ever again. Then from there, the person who gave such advice would try to convince the depressed person that this is true somehow (through presenting false convincing pseudo-scientific evidence and such). Or even scientific facts that are true because there are people who have completely gotten over depression. But this person would have to present these scientific facts in such a way that convinces the depressed person that he/she will, in fact, completely get over and never experience depression ever again.

So I should give you politically correct lies?

I can't do that. That would be a bad advice and truly cruel. Honest and lack of PC-ness is rooted in my culture. We don't do it over here. We also had sufferings. I guess we are not so godly, or something.

For many of us who have suffered chronic severe depression our whole lives have had to go through a process of acceptance of our disease. It is rather forced upon us and doesn't take place overnight. None of us can know the future. I am currently not in a depression and can have pleasure because the meds I am taking are working. I have no way of knowing for sure how much depression will be in my future. If it is like my past i will continue to have to live with it as I have found a way to do.

We have all spent long periods whining, complaining, and feeling sorry for ourselves. As you say it would be expected. Acceptance is a long process. If you read a lot of the other threads in this section you will see how empathetic, non judging, supportive, and caring people are in here.

We do however encourage each other to keep trying. To seek help if they haven't. To try different things. We don't want to give up hope. Even at the times when we have given up all hope a little bit lingers and we post here. It is true that many of us may have chronic depression our whole lives. We are faced with the stark reality of ending it all or learning to live with and manage as best we can. Some times things work sometimes they don't. many people do overcome it.

A depressed person should be approached with much understanding and empathy and no judgement. People who also suffer are the most likely to be this way. But you would also encourage them to seek help, to share your own story and what has worked for you and others. We continue to give each other hope.

There is a spark in the human spirit that does not die easily in spite of the worse possible suffering. I think you have that spark but are in a very difficult place in the process of acceptance.

I think it is innate in human beings to try to eliminate the suffering of others. Look at the advancements in cancer patients, AIDS patients, heart disease, stroke victims, diabetes. Huge advancements with much more to come. If your plumbing is all clogged up they can go in and fix it and add 20 or 30 years to your life (my dad is an example). New therapies they have developed for stroke victims that enable some to totally overcome the damaged areas of the brain by remapping other regions (my mom is an example). The brain is remarkably plastic.

The psychiatric and psychology field has lagged behind the others but it still has come a long way. Compare it to how it was in the 20's. How it was in the 60's. To how it is now. Vast improvements. The current meds, CBT, DBT, interpersonal therapy, meditation, yoga, diet, exercise, the understanding of, are all very recent developments in the field of mental health.

To say I am doomed to a life of chronic depression is not realistic. To think that this vast universe and life itself is not capable of coming up with better solutions is not realistic. Your body chemistry may change tomorrow and it may go away. None of us knows the future. The latest thing is Ketamine and TMS. Those were not even on the radar a few years ago.

I know one thing for sure, it takes active participation in your treatment and recovery and an attitude that things can get better. It is not false hope and pseudo science.

I think I will stop posting in this thread now as you seem to be ignoring my posts and questions and just want to argue with Venus.

I however think that depression may not be the biggest issues of the OP and all the modernest pills and ketamine will help with the real issue. Cannot pinpoint what it is exactly, but there is problem with the thinking patterns (for lack of better term)... Could be existential crisis. Could be some trauma issues, anxiety... really anything... who knows.

Stuff that should be explored in therapy. And be open minded. Excercise, pills, supplements... they help with the classic symptoms. Not with "pleasure makes me god-like and if I can't have it all the time, I am gonna give up my dreams". Not with unrealistic expections of life and of themselves... That seems dangerous, self-destructive and a highway to hell.

I disagree with zinco about psychiatric field making so much progress. But I believe in human strenght, resilience, power to overcome. Something that has been her all along and has been proved through centuries.

And if OP wants mindless hedonism... than better do it mindlessly. Make a Hagen Dazs Whiskey coctail. Self-love and wild fantasies. Hell... go to Central/Eastern Europe, enjoy the cheap booze and loose chicks, go to all you can eat sushi bar or chinese buffet... whatever you like. Do it for enjoying it and try not thinking about the "it makes me god-like". Think "this is great!". Enjoy every moment and switch of your brain.

Isn't modern therapy all about changing your thinking and attitudes? I think in large part it is.

And c'mon. Compare mental health in the 60's compared to now.

I am not sure but we seem to disagree on the nature of depression. I see it as much more biological. Even if caused by environment alone like trauma or abuse, that changes biology and chemical interventions can help, not cure.

You seem to draw a huge distinction between modern psyche drugs (synthetic) and herbs tinctures and supplements. I do not draw that distinction. They are all chemicals and can help. You yourself use them. I don't want to start an argument because I think we probably mostly agree.

Modern forms of therapy, studies on meditation, and such I think are big advancements in mental health. More so than drugs. CBT and meditation is proven to change the brain.

If TMS turns out to be very effective how can we say that it only alleviates symptoms and nothing more? It may very well be a cure. If the source of the problem is how one region of the brain communicates with another is all whacked and TMS corrects this that could be called a cure.

I know causes and treatments are very complex and I agree that the resilience of the human spirit to overcome and deal with adversity plays a huge role. This often means a total change in thinking and dumping beliefs that are not working and a whole shake up of what has been taught to you or you somehow incorporated into your being.

I have bought into this idea that there is no cure for depression but only the alleviation of symptoms. I have not found a cure for me, but I do not know if that idea is true. The same argument is had with alcoholism. If someone gets effective treatment of whatever kind and with the human spirit they never have depression again, I would say they are cured. But then even though I have not had a drink in 19 years I don't know that I can say I am cured of alcoholism or that it is in remission. So I dunno.

yeah, I am a supplement junkie.

The point is... it's just one of the things. I am not taking SJW and putting my dreams on hold while waiting for it to make me perfectly okay and without trace of depression.

As I said before, if I had waited for my depression to go away, I wouldn't have my master's degree, would never go to Albania or Crimea or Russia. And I would be more and more miserable and ever increasing medication coctail, thinking "oh, my "illness" is getting worse, I cannot do anything". Would it be my bipolar that robbed me of these things or my effed up thinking? Sure many things didn't work out. I wanted to be EVS in the wilder parts of Europe... that was not in the cards. I wanted to have career by now instead of mere job, but I am not giving up yet. Maybe I can be a war correspondent still (another dream that didn't work out... yet?).

Point is... it's a lot about you and your aims. Everything else is moot if you self-sabotage.

Meditation is not "modern", btw. Is really psychiatry trying to take credit for that? Is that the progress? Oooopsie, drugs failed... let's steal eastern philosophies?

I know I'll probably struggle for the rest of my life. That doesn't mean it's not worth it to live. That doesn't mean I will not have perfectly joyous moments. But they don't come to you... you have to seek them actively.

No I don't think they are trying to take credit or steal eastern philosophy. There are enough people in the field now that see the value in it and are willing to apply it and study it. That is a change. I don't think they have given up on drugs. It is a more holistic approach slowly being adopted. Many psyche meds are very effective despite the draw backs. Compare now to the days of only thorazine and state hospitals.

Oh how I miss our debates. We were shut down and the "Things That Matter" never did take off.

So I will no longer reply to this thread unless Matt specifically addresses one of my posts. (that is if it is possible for me)

The number 1 and greatest thing I despise in life is suffering.

Now go ahead and give your opinion on what I'm about to say here which is that I feel that struggles in life are pointless setbacks and nothing more. If you are going to say something such as that struggles are opportunities for you to grow and push yourself further in life, the fact of the matter is that you can grow and push yourself just as much (and even further) without struggles in life through pure pleasure alone.

For example, with my pursuit of being a composer, my struggle is depression. If it weren't for my depression, I would be able to push myself to the absolute and dedicate practically all my time everyday in learning and such to compose. Sure, right now despite my depression, I could force myself to pursue this dream anyway. But the fact of the matter is that my pursuit would be hampered and that because I have depression, I have lost the greatest part of me as a composer (pleasure).

Pleasure is the greatest part of you and I will provide an argument supporting so. If you had the choice to be the dumbest person on earth with all the pleasure in the world or be someone who is depressed and highly intelligent, which would you choose? I'm quite sure you would choose to be the person with all the pleasure in the world because of the fact that your emotional health comes 1st above some stupid intelligence. Your health obviously comes 1st above anything you do in life or any other amazing capability besides pleasure that your mind has and to sacrifice your pleasure (emotional health) for such things would be foolish (unless if you value someone else's life so much that you are willing to make that sacrifice if it meant saving that person's life). Therefore, I think you can see now why I view pleasure as the greatest part of you and how that makes you a "god-like" being in a sense.

Finally, I hate depression and struggles so much that if, let's pretend, I were to be one of the greatest composers who has earned the title and message to the world of "A young man who faced and accepted a struggle of depression that made him great," I would utterly despise this title. I would instead choose a different title (a different message to the world) of "Struggles and suffering in life is worthless and a life of basically pure pleasure and no struggles or suffering is what makes you great. Therefore, avoid struggles and suffering at all costs and be god-like and superior to these worthless things and become a god through the greatest thing a human being can have (pleasure)."

If I was the greatest composer right now in front of the world, I would purposely say that I had a life of practically pure pleasure with no depression and little struggles in life. I would say this despite the fact that I have and continue to have chronic depression.

This life seems to want to force its inferior message upon people that "Suffering is an inevitable part of life and just has to be accepted" as well as that "The greatest people in life had struggles and depression." I utterly despise these messages and want to portray a different message (a superior) message of my own that goes against these loathsome messages of life. It would be a message that creates a different reality I want (a god-like reality in which we all are gods superior to suffering and such and have all the pleasure in the world). It would be that message of my own that I just quoted above.

i guess i have lost your point - for i would not choose to be the dumbest person in the world w/ a whole bunch of pleasure - i'd pick to be intelligent and depressed - & i'm not lying. for if i was dumb how would i know i was pleased or not - i would just be. at least being intelligent you realize what's happening. is that what you want or are saying? - to just be mindless?
pleasure is a part of a spectrum of emotions - but how can one have just one side of such a spectrum? how can i know i'm having pleasure if i've never had pain? there are no 'gods' superior to pain - don't you think god himself experienced pain when man decided to go against him?
i'm sorry - i am a depressive, but i've never been classified as being one - so, i'm sure, i do not understand all that you are going through. but it seems you are liking asking for all the lambs and wolves to live together in peace and pleasure w/ one another - yet how could any wolf survive w/out the suffering of a lamb?
you deem life 'inferior' and 'loathsome' because it does contain suffering - and want another life w/out acceptance of this true reality.
- - - there is a desert with no water. there is a river 5 miles away. now you can sit in the desert and hunger for water and wonder why it's all dry and wish that the desert was closer to the river - but that ain't gonna make it happen. but if you build a dam or build a very long pipe, the river can come to desert and plenish it. then be joyous of the accomplishment of the dam, not of either the desert or the water.
whatever - take care and i wish you the best {really}.