[Taonuviel]

Why are my thoughts automatically ruled out just because I'm not on any depression medicine? Yeah, I know medicine can help thought processes be more positive, but I'm also pretty familiar with myself by now. Yeah, medicine would probably lift my mood a little. Of course, that may be more dangerous than I am now, because a lighter mood doesn't change my view of the future or my current situation, just makes me a bit more willing to be active - possibly self-harmful actions I may or may not have the energy to do now, not necessarily suicide, though possibly that, but other things such as self-injury or more resolve in my fasting/exercise habits.
Anyway, it's annoying. Makes me feel like they think my head's defective. "You're not thinking clearly." Well, I think I am! All makes sense to me... unlike hope for something that all of who I am goes against - worth, a future, friend/relationships.
Of course, it goes against the ability of a caring person to actually consider a person could really be as useless/hopeless as she feels... so the answer must be she's doing something wrong, or her mind would work better if it were on medicine. Of course.
Medicine. Sure, whatever. I'll see the doctor, if I can make it long enough to squeeze together the money for the visit - and pray for samples. Wonder what people's answer will be if I'm on medicine. "Perservere. It'll get better, you'll see." Lovely. Yeah, I'm believing that one. /sarcasm
And tomorrow's forecast? Dreary, but without the resolve of today. Another one to push through, I guess.

[Rapunzel]

Who is telling you that medicine is necessarily the answer? If I have said something that sounded like that, I'll feel bad. I think that medicine is one thing that can help, and that if one combination didn't work, that indicates that you haven't found the right one yet. But, no, it doesn't fix the problem. I've never tried prescription antidepressants myself. St. John's Wort works for me. It's not very expensive and you don't need a prescription. Maybe that would be something for you to consider.

But, I think that therapy, and finding a new way of looking at the world and seeing yourself, will make a more lasting and significant difference. I know you don't think you can afford it, but there are places that offer therapy and make it affordable, and there are people or organizations that will help.

My point is that you don't have to stay depressed. Keep looking for something that will help you. That may include a combination of medication, therapy, social support, and making changes in your life. Depression is not caused by just one thing. There are biological, psychological, and social factors involved, and they should all be considered.

I've been disappointed too about the advice (or lack thereof) that I have received regarding medication. First of all, that nobody thought about offering it to me a long time ago, and then that after I started using SJW and it was working, then they wanted me to switch to something prescription. Yes, you probably do know what's best for yourself. But also consider that depression makes things seem worse than they are. You do have worth, you can have a bright future, and there are people who care about you. It's hard right now, but you can make it through this and one day you will wonder how you could have ever felt the way that you do now.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

<font color=orange>"Never forget: 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2."</font color=orange>

[(JD)]

Oh Can I relate! I have tried soooo many of the anti depressants, and reacted to all but one, and that one made me feel "ill".

So, anytime my ideas or thinking is "off base" it's because I don't take medicine for my depression. And no argument is ever given full weight, because my thinking is clouded "because I'm not treating the depression."

Everything I discuss, well it's tainted because of the depression...and we "work around that" because I have had so much trouble with them. Ok, so, they would rather talk with someone I'm not, someone easier to talk with because my thinking would be altered by the drug?

You know... I wish I had the guts to try a newer anti depressant, and then NOT TAKE IT but lie and say I am and see if THEY see what they want to see again....

Unfortunately they would then insist that I CAN take an antidepressant (that one) and, not knowing if I'm allergic to it... well it could make for a bad situation.

I know, I just KNOW, someone is out there thinking right now: well, the medicines DO help you have a different view of life, etc etc etc.

Can we talk?

<font color=blue> meditation is a true way to connect to the Source </font color=blue>

[dexter]

>> "You're not thinking clearly." Well, I think I am! All makes sense to me..

Of course you think you are thinking clearly! That's why depression is such a horrible illness!

>> a person could really be as useless/hopeless as she feels...

And this proves that you are not thinking clearly. It seems logical and "true" to you but NO ONE is useless or worthless! You don't "have to be" anything to anyone else... all you have to be is true to yourself. You are feeling a lot of pain, and a lot of hopelessness, and the depression is making you think you are "useless". What does that even mean? Like we are each a tool on this earth that has to perform some specific function?

Are you as hopeless as you feel? In your same post you mention the possibility of getting the money together for a doctor visit, and the very good possibility that he may have samples. That is hope. You might not need medication, maybe just therapy could help. That is hope. You could find a clinic that will treat you for free. That is hope. You can listen to all the people here who have felt the same way as you do, and were able to successfully conquer those feelings. You won't believe that because the depression won't let you. But you could hold onto some faith that it is true for you like it is true for many others. That is hope.

I don't believe that anyone wants to end their life because they feel useless or hopeless. What they want is an end to the emotional pain of feeling useless or hopeless. And there is help for that. The negativity makes you think you have no other choices, but you do have choices, there are always choices. Choose to survive this, to get help, and to keep trying until you find what works for you.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[Taonuviel]

I'm sorry, I'm not saying that against anyone here, or anyone at all, really. It was in response to the hotline call I'd just made, which was good in that it was really good to hear/talk with this man again, and I'm kinda glad I chose the number where I knew the people. (I worked there a short time.) But I couldn't get myself to let on how severe the depression is, was hoping it'd kinda lead that way for it to come out, but I was afraid to just blurt it out, and all we really ended up talking about was medicine, which I'm afraid to try the visit until after my car insurance payment, I don't think I'll have enough for both any sooner than in two weeks.
Ok, so I suppose not all of my thoughts make that much sense. I suppose it's not logical to believe every other person on earth has value, but I don't. Well, I hold to the belief that it doesn't make sense to hold to hope that my life will ever be any different from what it's always been - how about the law of nature that says all creation is in a state of decay? Now there's a positive thought - that my life could decay to worse than it is. And someone would probably ask "You're telling me there's never been anything good in your life?" Um... no, though a few curses in blessing's clothes. "But you have a roof over your head, a family and other people who love you, clothes on your back, food in the cupboard." Gee, thanks for being observant. One, the physical needs mean nothing if I feel like crap, and no, I'm not very interested at the moment in practicing thankfulness. Two, my family loves me, but makes life too difficult, especially when it comes to trying to deal with depression.
Anyway, I kinda got on a rant there. And I lost whatever else I was thinking of saying.
So anyway, I'm thinking of calling the number on my insurance card for behaviorial health and finding out what it'd take to see a psychiatrist, and how much it'd cost, because now I'm thinking my premium hasn't been met this year... which could be a very bad thing... see how that goes.

[dexter]

>> how about the law of nature that says all creation is in a state of decay?

The law of entropy (that's what that "rule" is) only applies to a closed system with no energy being added from the outside. The law refers to the overall entropy of the system, not to individual elements. By adding or moving energy around within the system it is very easy to reverse entropy in one part of it. Left to it's own devices, a box of marbles will tend to scatter. But you can add thought and energy to that system and organize the marbles in a row or grid, sort them by color or size, and apply a bounding edge so that they stay that way until disturbed.

That is why I am SO GLAD that you are pursuing avenues of help for this. There is absolutely no need for you to decay or become worse, as long as you put some energy into getting better. Feeling helpless and doing nothing is the only way to ensure that things will get worse.

{{{{{{{{Taonuviel}}}}}}}}

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--http://www.idexter.com

[Taonuviel]

So... I called my insurance... and it sounded like I'd have to see my GP doctor about medicine... which I'm not too thrilled on because I haven't liked how that's gone before. But they gave me some places to try looking for a pdoc who's available soon (obviously a long wait isn't going to be good), and ended up finding one who'd had someone cancel and can get me in Friday. So I'm all set to see this one Friday... couldn't catch whether it's a man or woman... hopefully a man... eh, now I'm nervous. Actually did this on my own, too, without my pastor prompting... kinda wondering what he'll think when I tell him. No one I know has ever suggested seeing a pdoc before, always just say to see a doctor about medicine, and I'm kinda unsure, get the idea some people might see pdocs as quacks or un-necessary... I guess I just don't like the idea of stepping out on my own to do this... though maybe that's something I ought to be doing... not like I'm a minor anymore... need to grow up.
*sigh* Ugh. I don't want to deal with this week. Wish I could get high or drunk or something and forget the week... not that I'd actually do something like that... but man it sounds good. Or hit the fast-forward button. Skip, especially, like work tomorrow. Man I hate my job.

[Rapunzel]

Seeing a psychiatrist (pdoc) is best for psychiatric meds, so I am very glad that you decided to do that. GP's are less prepared to handle that, although many of them do it anyway. Congratulations for taking that step! Another advantage is that the pdoc should know about what options for therapy are available, and is more likely to refer you to someone. I firmly believe that therapy is very important. Meds alone are not enough.

I wish you well. Sometimes it would be nice to have a fast forward button.

<font color=orange>"Never forget: 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2."</font color=orange>

[dexter]

Tao I think it is great that you have an appt set up for Friday. You are right, sometimes it can be a much longer wait. While I was in group therapy they told us we had to find a pdoc long before we were ready to leave the group... if we waited until we "graduated" we'd likely have a long wait. It is great news that someone was able to fit you in quickly.

I also agree that therapy is a necessity. Sometimes therapy alone isn't enough and we need meds, but I don't think meds ever do it on their own because they just sort of "set the stage" for wellness by "fixing" our brain chemistry so that it can accept improvement.

I would hope that your pastor would understand the need for therapy and/or medicine. You are right that many people don't, but that is only because they are not informed about what clinical depression really is and how it effects us. Don't worry about those people, the only thing important is that you know better. If you find someone close to you that wants to understand the illness better, I wrote a paper you can get at
-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[Taonuviel]

Thanks you guys...
Therapy, yeah, I'll probably be looking at that soon. I wouldn't be surprised if my pastor brings it up next time I talk with him... whenever that may be... since he hasn't contacted me yet... hmm. I'm more worried about how I'll pay for that, though... but there may be some kind of sliding scale and assistance program w/ my church through the Christian counseling place around here... I'm just afraid it'll mean all my money will have to go to it... when I really need to spend a few hundred dollars on tests this summer before school.
Ugh, I hate myself, how I can't get a worthwhile job... my crappy little job even sent me home early today because they ran out of work... after 3 hours! It's so frustrating... I don't understand how high schoolers can have better jobs around here... and be hired over me... when I have semi-good work experience, a hs diploma, some college, and a second language - spanish, very useful in this area. It's got to be my looks/personality... both of them crappy... oh how I hate myself.
Well, found out the pdoc is a man - or so I would hope with the name Henry. I am glad about that...

[darkeyes]

To all of you,
Sorry if I upset y'all, but meds are not so bad if they offer you a better quality of life, you need to stick with the pdocs regimen and if it is not working and he or she will not work with you then move on.
It is not always right to condem meds, when after all, they have helped so many thousands of people, even have prevented numerous possible suicides, so I wouldn't be ready to disregard them entirely.
Yeah, I've been through quite a few, and some sucked, but finally my pdoc encouraged me to try a different one and things have gone fine despite the loss of my dad and now having my mom with me who has multiple health problems and vascular dementia. . . and I am still surviving, to think 5 years ago I was a person who literally almost pulled the trigger of a .357 Sturm Ruger, due to other past problems.
My only advice is to get a reputable pdoc and follow the med program if so prescribed. Hard to accept but if we want to rise up, we need to work with a program and not against it, doing so will get us no where, I found that out the hard way and would hate for anyone to have to do the same.
Good luck with all,

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[dexter]

I should also add that when I was first on meds, prescribed by my medical doc and I didn't do follow up care, they did seem to work but they also made me feel a little numb... I couldn't cry at movies anymore and that was noticable. I stopped taking them "because" of that (really I was too depressed to want to keep trying).

Now I have something I think is working and I definitely do not have the numbness (I welled up at the last episode of Gilmore Girls )... So although some people they don't like the meds because it makes them numb that is not always the case... and it may be that it never has to be the case if you keep working with your pdoc. I don't know if people who complained about the numbness ever followed up with their pdoc to try to find a different combo that would work without the numbness, or if they just "accepted" the numbness and/or gave up.

I mention because I know it is a concern of a lot of people and was something I was afraid of when I began this journey.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[Taonuviel]

Yeah... I quit taking Zoloft when I noticed I was feeling both numb and suicidal, I was like, what's the point in that? So I stopped abruptly... yeah... that was fun... or not... but I did feel better for a while after that.
Ok, how much follow-up should there be with a doctor when an anti-depressant is prescribed? I kinda feel like there wasn't enough the 2 times I got a prescription from GP's, and that's part of why I wanted to see a pdoc now if possible, but I don't know if there was enough or not. I feel really dumb about it now, that maybe I should just see my family's GP, and I'm getting the idea people around here think so, too. I was just feeling really desperate Tuesday, like ok, I'm still alive, I've got to try something before I go crazy - and make it something different and maybe more right than before. Maybe I'm not going for the right reasons, or with any "reason"- logic to it.
I feel so dumb about it, like I'm doing everything wrong, not just this, but lately I've been telling anyone anything, writing emails to the college group leaders, telling a few people at the ministry I used to work at, calling the helpline for that ministry, holding off on, then writing my pastor about this again, not being anonymous or holding anything back, really - I've never been like this before. It feels wrong, like I'm looking for attention or making up problems, and being a major pain. I should have just let it be, wait for my pastor to tell me what I should do, then I could be more confident about it maybe. But who knows how long it'd take to get a suggestion from him... I need to be doing something, I can't deal with nothingness.
Uuuhhh... so nervous. Ok, so one more question... can anyone reading this tell me what I can expect in my first appointment with this pdoc?

[Rapunzel]

I haven't been to a pdoc, but what I would expect is that they would take some case history information, ask about your current symptoms, etc. How long of an appointment to you have scheduled? I'm not sure they necessarily tell you that, but that if you do know, then you might have a better idea how thorough he will be. Well, I ought to let someone else answer that question.

Mostly, I wanted to tell you that you are doing the right things. Seeing a pdoc and letting people know that you need help are what you need to do so that you can get the support and treatment that it takes to get better. Most of us tend to second-guess ourselves and think that maybe we are just blowing things out of proportion and seeking attention, but that tendency is just one more thing that goes along with depression. You have put other people first so much that you have trouble allowing yourself to get support. You deserve the support though, and you deserve to get better.

<font color=orange>"Never forget: 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2."</font color=orange>

[darkeyes]

Most will spend about 1-2 hours on your very first appt., they do an evaluation, of your physical health and then mental health, they will then go from there to be sure to properly diagnose, once that has been established, you may be prescribed meds. I encourage anyone to go along with the program, even though at first you may resent doing so, if you really want to get help, you give your honest effort, and keep appts.
I balked at all of this in the begining but couldn't stand myself any longer, I hated the scarey way I was feeling, so I finally gave in and followed things, don't get discouraged if you may need to have meds switched or titrated, it takes time with some. I guess what I am trying to express is not to give up, sure meds may not be the answer for some, but you cannpt deny the fact they have helped millions of people that followed their pdoc's program. Whatever you choose, don't give up.
I have had that struggle when I first started treatment, even told the pdoc and my former T that I did not need meds, blah!blah! I finally dropped my pride and took them, have had a few changes in them but I have come such a long way, and I mean that in a positive light.
Whatever works for you, that is your choice, and I wish you loads of love and luck with this journey

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[dexter]

>> I've got to try something... - and make it something different and maybe more right than before.

Tao have no doubts, that is ABSOLUTELY the MOST RIGHT thing possible to be driving your actions. There's the old definition of "insanity:" Doing the same things over and over again, each time expecting a different result.

You very "simply" recognize that things are not working well for you (the first important step) and are taking action to change something so that things can be better for you. Even if right now you are not sure what those things are you are exploring your options with the intention of changing and feeling better. That is the road to success. Keep doing what you are doing.

As for followup, as you know, it takes quite a bit of time for meds to take effect, so that time has to be allowed to pass and then the doc should evaluate to see if it is working or needs to be changed. I see my pdoc once a month and my T every week. I think this should continue at least until you are "stable" on something that is working well for you with no unpleasant side effects that are going to keep you from continuing treatment.

A GP may know the meds and what they do, but a pdoc has the special training and experience to know the things to look for and the changes to make to "fine tune" the meds to your needs. Sometimes a combination of meds works best and they can help discover that "magic combo" for you.

They should also be more aware of medical conditions that can mimic mental health problems... One thing very often talked about is that a thyroid problem can lead to depression, I think that is more common in women?... and is something a pdoc will check as a possibility as a part of his evaluation. It is important, ovbiously, to treat the problem from the correct starting point!

Good luck and keep working at it, you are doing very well IMO.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[Taonuviel]

Ok, thanks again you guys, your posts are really helpful.
I'm pretty relieved, I just got off the phone with my pastor, and he's behind me in this, more so after I'd told him I'd been at the point of being ready to use a suicide plan for the next day throughout most of Monday. He was pretty concerned hearing that... but was glad I'd made the appointment, which was apparently what he planned on trying to get me to do the next time we talked. I was afraid no one would understand, saying I should just see my PCP. That's how my mom is... which is a huge frustration, but it'll really help to have my pastor with me in it, especially since my mom really respects his views.
The one thing I'm still a little off on is the fear of what this psychiatrist will think/do when/if he realizes how suicidal I've been lately. My pastor said I shouldn't hold it back, but he was concerned about that too, so I'm a bit more concerned about that aspect than before.
But still... I feel much better, and I guess I'll just face whatever happens... what can it hurt at this point, anyway?

[dexter]

T, I was really afraid of that too. I had kept my plan a compete secret from everyone for 2 years, even to the point where I was ready to immediately act on it. No one suspected at all and I was even joking about it at work, no one had any clue that my "jokes" were a cover for my real plan.

On the night I decided to try the hotline though, it was very much in my mind that I had made a choice to try an alternative to my plan. I went to the ER and let several people know why I was going there and what I had been planning. The biggest thing is that when talking to the doctor, I realized that I had to be completely open and honest about my feelings, my thoughts, and my plan. If I had continued to hold back out of fear of what would happen next, then I wouldn't really have been giving the "choice" I made a fair chance. If I wanted an alternative to suicide, I had to put all my effort and faith and trust into allowing people to help me.

It can be scary, true, but I think you owe it to yourself to "go for it" as fully as possible.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[dexter]

>> there may be some kind of sliding scale and assistance program w/ my church through the Christian counseling place around here...

That's a good thing to pursue. I had forgotten that I knew some people in my group who had all of their medical bills paid by their church's help program. That's what the church has that program for, so if your pastor has something like that to offer it would be another thing to look into for the treatment you need.

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--http://www.idexter.com