Am I a "mirror" narcissist?

Atypical
My father is dead, my mother died this year at 92, she wanted to live till a 100 and receive a telegram, a birthday card from the queen as is the traditon.
I do not miss either of them.
My mother hated me, and as l got older l f##king hated her back.

My eldest sister who is 'normal' I am friendly with her, my middle sister (a raving narcissist) I have no contact with, she is so toxic. She killed mother really, she wanted rid of her to get the money, but that's another story!

I've casually noticed something minor over the years, when people speak of their narcissistic parents. I think it might reveal something quite significant of how the child views the parent.

I've noticed many (not all) say "mother" instead of "my mother" or "father" instead of "my father" or "my dad".

I think that is significant. It shows in how high esteem this individual is held, it's almost a respectful and submissive address.

Now, please, before shouting at me, I know that many of you have overcome this initial fear and so on, after discovering your parents were narcissists, and you understand it now and so on, I just think this means of address is quite demonstrative as a residual or remnant of that time and illustrates quite well the initial respect/fear and almost awe these individuals were held in when we were kids, before we understood. It's almost like they are "larger than life" characters, that we think that even other people would call them "mother" or "father".

What I mean is you either say "my mom" or her name, e.g. "Margaret" when describing her to another person. To say "mom" to a stranger when speaking of your mom, to me is quite significant.

Sorry if I'm rambling total rubbish, it's quite hard to explain what I'm trying to say.

On the nature nurture debate...

My favorite analogy was in a textbook I had. It said that it is the equivalent of saying, how much of the music is the violin and how much is the violin player?

An interaction means that factors on both sides influence each other. For instance, if you have shy parents, inherit genes which contribute to shyness, you also will have parents who are more likely to introduce you to environments which promote shyness. They may not have company often, they model behaviour which teaches the child how to be in the world... epigenetics states that environments can even influence how our genes are expressed. This is why the nature nurture debate is no longer relevant in psychology. To say that anything should be up for debate, well, creationists say the same thing about Darwin. Also, there are huge methodological issues with adoption and twin studies.

Mentioning nature nurture in the social sciences will get you laughed out. Not because the dichotomy acknowledges more variables but because it fails to acknowledge them and the complexity involved.

that is interesting... i wrote something where the character referred to parents in this way and i didnt actually think about why, it just seemed to fit the character... what you said is probably why it did fit the story.

i just found it hard how quick we all were to talk about how horrible narcissistic parents were and about narcissism as if one either were or were not a narcissist. and as if we can only accept someone if we say that they are not a narcissist...

we all have narcissistic qualities. i can accept when i am acting on my narcissistic qualities and only when acknowledging it can i change it... and if i can accept the narcissism in others, i can accept the narcissism in myself. i dont have to like it, but acceptance is important.

the part about narcissists and insecurity bugged me because it was almost like we failed to see the insecurity because that would be seeing narcissists as human. but this is why narcissists so quickly explode when someone confronts their inflated sense of self worth. if they were secure, they would not be triggered.

forgiveness is giving up all hope of having had a better past--anne lamott.
(quotation key does not work).

also, i find it interesting and rather disturbing the research going on in social psychology on the rise of narcissism in western society.

to be human is to accept ourselves as we are, with our own history, and to accept others as they are--jean vanier.

I think narcissism is rising in western society. And it seems people are insecure for roughly all the same reasons, which leads me to believe it must be global media platforms that are "teaching" people where their insecurities "ought" to lie. This is why you're getting "normal" people too, as a very real concept, which technically, shouldn't even be a real thing as every human is an individual.

By pointing out "shortfalls" in people, you automatically create a drive in them to "match up", which is a very cunning way of getting people to play right into your ideals and control them, and get them to follow you.

StbGuy

I've noticed many (not all) say "mother" instead of "my mother" or "father" instead of "my father" or "my dad".

Good point. For me however I cannot call them 'mum' or 'dad' because they are affectionate/warm/loving terms.
They were not loving they were self absorbed and cold. I do not hold them in high esteem or have any respect for them whatsoever.

"Anyone can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a dad, and that's why I call you dad, because you are so special to me. You taught me the game and you taught me how to play it right."
Wade Boggs

Now thats a dad!

somat,

the part about narcissists and insecurity bugged me because it was almost like we failed to see the insecurity because that would be seeing narcissists as human. but this is why narcissists so quickly explode when someone confronts their inflated sense of self worth. if they were secure, they would not be triggered.

Their explosions are not about a lack of security per say, they are about sheer bloody indignation.
Take my N sister if I disagree with her she with explode she is confident, a bully, a control freak, very driven, highly materialistic and the bossiest person you will ever meet. There is NO WAY you could view her as 'insecure'. She simply does not care about anyone but herself.
She has been like this since the get go.
With her inability to feel empathy, her greed and grandiosity she will not tolerate dissension, she is 'special' how DARE YOU challenge a God like that!

The illogical idea narcissists are all like it because they are 'insecure' is Freud's theory of over 100 years ago!!
People used to believe the Earth was flat, things change as science and knowledge moves on. Now we have brains scans which can chart brain activity.
Narcissists are human, and humans as a species are highly destructive to each other, and, to other species probably because there are many narcs around.

Normal people can be confident, or insecure.
Narcissists can be confident, or insecure, they can be overt or covert, shy or loud. The issue with narcs is whatever their persona they, cannot feel empathy
IMO wired differently, a difference in their amygdala seems likely.

"Emotions
The amygdala is part of the limbic system of the brain, which is involved with emotions and other reactions to stimuli. The amygdala is a processing center that is hooked up to receive incoming messages from our senses and our internal organs. It is highly involved with different emotional responses."

http://study.com/academy/lesson/amygdala-role-in-emotion-function-lesson-quiz.html

somat
Mentioning nature nurture in the social sciences will get you laughed out. Not because the dichotomy acknowledges more variables but because it fails to acknowledge them and the complexity involved.

As someone with a scientific logical mind, l would never 'laugh anyone out' because l have an open mind, l will consider all opinions.
I am well aware of the variables and complexity.

One of those complexity's is that sometimes genetic traits are so strong that nurture has little effect.

Once upon a time Galileo was 'laughed out' imprisoned no less, for saying the Earth was round.

Well these posts sure got interesting...

I don't judge anyone just because they are a Narcissist or otherwise highly narcissistic, that would be downright silly of me considering the fact that I am a highly narcissistic being myself. What I do judge people by is how they treat me, I don't hate my two Narcissists for parentals just because they're both Narcissists. I don't appreciate the way they behaved, especially as one left me with permanent physical damage that will never get better.

A malignant narcissist that is now an ex friend tried playing with me, and it is just in my nature to play back(and win too, and yes he deserved the ego shattering in every way you can imagine). I may be a psychopath but I am still a human being, and I like to be respected just like anyone else does. I still have wants and needs just like any human being does, it just looks different for me due to my unemotional nature and all that.

The indignation thing, I think that's right on target just based on my personal experiences with narcissists. It doesn't look like insecurity to me, it's the HOW DARE YOU???!!!! thing, lol. With my ex friend that I mentioned above it was exactly like that, he wasn't insecure... he just hated me calling him on his ****, and in classic NPD style he could NOT admit that he had done ANYTHING worthy of me telling him off even though all the evidence was literally right in front of his face and I just kept pointing it out. He was so furious, and I was just sitting there calm as ever which infuriated him even more lol.

I like what you wrote about how people in general can be secure or insecure, ditto with narcissists as a specific group of people. Narcissists are still human, so they can be as secure as any "normal" person or as "insecure" as any normal person.

The lack of empathy thing, dead on accurate. There's a reason that there's a line of thinking that says that NPD and full blown psychopathy are on a spectrum and I think it has to do with the lack of empathy thing. I've never met a genuine narcissist that is at all capable of empathy, and I don't mean that to sound demonizing at all, it's just been what I've observed... I've met a lot of narcissists in my life.

One other difference I've noticed between narcissists and psychopaths is that narcissists have way more of a capacity to feel negative emotions, especially fear. My mother's husband is most definitely a narcissist, but he's told me about several incidents where he felt genuinely afraid(he was pretty open to discussing things with me after a few drinks and a good dose of ego shattering from me, lol... and about two years ago he told me that while I was still living with him that he was terrified that I would kill him, I told him deadpan that I wouldn't waste my time... For some reason that didn't help him feel any better, heh). Me on the other hand, I could tell you stories about my childhood where you would think that anyone would be absolutely terrified, but I was just pissed off and I saw the trauma I underwent for the first 22 years of my life as a game. In my case, ironically it is my trauma history that proves that for me I am more a product of genetics/nature than nurture. The way I reacted to traumatic events was so highly atypical that it's obvious that my inherent nature was different from the start. Though I will say, I think some of my personality traits were definitely accentuated due to my environment, but they were still there from the get go... just got amplified.

I'm like you, I like to think about all options to come up with a conclusion... But once I have come up with a conclusion, good luck talking me out of thinking I'm right, ha ha ha.

Genetics overruled nurture for me, it's obvious... If anyone takes one look at my family and then takes a look at me, it's not surprising at all that my psychopathy is innate, I was born this way.

One of my father figures is now deceased also, good riddance... He's the one that crippled me so I can't say I'm all torn up about him being gone, HA HA HA.

My mother and her husband(I never thought of him as much of a father though technically he falls under that role albeit he did a beyond **** job) are both still alive. My mother also has ASPD, her and I actually get on quite well and we talk frequently. Ironically enough she was never all that abusive to me. Her husband though? She kicked him out over three years ago, serves the ****er right lol.

Your narcissistic sister sounds special all right, just not special in the way she thinks she is.

Atypical.
Love your posts!
You are so just RIGHT

'One other difference I've noticed between narcissists and psychopaths is that narcissists have way more of a capacity to feel negative emotions, especially fear.'

True narcs do feel fear, and they tend be very emotional, such sensitive little flowers. That 'sensitivity' is a one way street tho, they treat you like s##t while expecting, hey, insisting you treat them with kid gloves/like a God.
Its all about THEM. You are unspecial and of scant importance.

Psychopaths do not feel fear.
My ex partner (a high functioning psychopath) had no fear at all, none. No conscience, no empathy and no fear.
In the last few months of our relationship, I, being of a curious mind and realizing what he was began to observe him closely, like you would a bug under a microscope.

I found myself intrigued, how did he understand others without empathy?

I noted he watched people, secretly, covertly, listened intently while pretending not too. He was an expert in body language.
It was a game to him, learn about someone, be their friend, gain their trust, find out secrets, their weak points and then. Go in for the kill!

He told me. 'Anna, you must learn to play people, if you don't you lose'

Its all a game.

I wish I'd met him earlier in my life, I was such a dappy sap. I learnt so much from him.
The weight of his personality however was overwhelming, crushing he was always right his voice had to be heard. I was becoming more and more invisible so I had to go.

He was a bit of a genius, yes he was. So clever, and unfortunately also evil.

I suspect from your posts you are one of the few people who could take on a narc and win.

I've always found this to be true of the narcissists I've known. My mother's husband for example is a very emotional creature, he is a classic "fragile" narcissist. I still wouldn't call him insecure but he has this sense of what looks like desperation to him to get the respect he feels entitled to. In sharp contrast to me, while I like being respected my mental well being does not depend on whether I get respect or not. And when I am working to gain someone's respect, it is a means to an end not the end itself. A narcissist wants respect, admiration, etc for the sake of having those things, it makes them emotionally feel good. For me, I'm indifferent if people see me as a saint or a devil, the only time it ever matters to me if it would be expedient to be seen as one or the other... If a situation calls for me looking like a saint then I cultivate that, and ditto for if I need to look like a devil(and the latter is most definitely easier for me to cultivate, lol.)

Certainly true of me. I've never felt fear a day in my life, I understand what fear is but it's all clinical.

This fellow sounds remarkably like myself, no surprises there. I am constantly watching people, analyzing them, finding out what makes them tick, and so on... You're right, I can fully admit that to me it's all a game.

Narcissists "play the game" too, but the internal motivations for said game is different for narcissists than it is for psychopaths...

People who actually appreciate me have told me that they have learned many things from interacting with me. I find that you being able to admit that you learned from this psychopathic fellow is again, refreshing to read.

How do you define evil? Like, how was this fellow evil in your eyes?

Yes, I have never lost a game with a narcissist. I trashed my mother's husband's reputation when I was a teenager, that along with several other assholes for family members, many of them were likely narcissists also looking back on it... and funnily enough to destroy my family's delusional construct didn't involve any lying on my part, just telling the truth. I still think that's quite funny considering psychopaths are notorious for lying all the time. Just because I can lie doesn't mean I always do, if there's no benefit to deception I'm actually honest to the point of shattering people's worlds.

I've made a bit of a pseudo-career in taking down narcissists, they are my favorites as far as "targets" go(I don't think there's any point in trying to make myself sound like I'm not a social predator here, because I am.) I get such a thrill out of challenging a narcissist to a game and winning it. The way I see it is that I'm not doing anything all that evil, narcissists play with people all the time but as people say if you push it too far you'll end up messing with the wrong person... That's what happens to narcissists when they try to play with me, I say "game on" and I've never lost. Because their egos are so inflated they assume that I couldn't possibly know how to play the game better than they do(I think that this is likely subconscious for most narcissists, with the exceptions being the malignant narcissists who are far more aware of exactly what they are doing like you mentioned in another post.)

And then there was THE narcissist that is excluded from what is here........ Just in-case your wondering that would be me!!!!! Hahahahaha ha
Wanna play???? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

For whatever reasons you've been an exception to my "rules" about playing with Narcissists, I've just never had the urge around you other than both of our mutual shenanigans on this forum lol. Yeah, you're special! *hands Underground a medal*

Urge??? Nice one ha ha ha. The urge is other than what your used to.... I intrigue you!!!
Love me
The Underground

Amongst other things!!!

Well of course you do, and why play with someone who intrigues me? Wouldn't be all that beneficial to me now would it?

Your "style" of NPD is of a different flavor than other Narcissists I've known, and I like that. You're also way less paranoid than other Narcissists I've met in that you freely share your thoughts here, most Narcissists don't admit to thinking how you do yet you're upfront about it. That's an uncommon trait in a Narcissist though not unheard of. I think your lack of paranoia that I've seen in other Narcissists yet not you is why you're the only "pure" Narcissist I've seen post here.

I guess I'll throw a bone..... I do enjoy you as well, I appreciate the things we do understand for there are many who have no clue but do try to join in. To be honest I guess I'm so use to getting what I want and need that I at times may come off a little strong lol. You are someone that I do appreciate and with all this I was beginning to sink my teeth in so deep that you were about to be mine forever ha ha ha ha. I am that good!!!! Keep up the good work and continue the string pulling as I do enjoy a show every now and again. I at times forget who I am dealing with, you are good!!!

Heh of course you do! But seriously it is nice to have some mutual understanding although there are some pretty stark differences. I like the differences too, I find them fascinating.

The coming off strong thing, sounds like the entitlement criteria that I know you definitely meet in the NPD description lol.

Forgetting just who you're dealing with is a very common thing that happens to people who interact with me, no worries I'm totally used to that; snickering.

It's these little back and forth's(<- for you) that keep me coming back for more.

Atypical
How do you define evil? Like, how was this fellow evil in your eyes?
He was very violent when younger, spent time in prison. He had worked for 'Rachman' the notorious slum landlord in the 1950s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_RachmanAnd was in the same social circle as Kenneth Noye
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Noye
Both evil men.
Just noticed how evil and vile are anagrams of each other.

Locally he was infamous and feared. For good reason.

I met him on a dating website, he was 60 I was 50 (I didn't know his history then) Turned out he owned land and lived in large Tudor farm house. Wow. Thought I'd cracked it a freaking millionaire no less.
Through hard work and criminal/sub criminal activity he'd made a fortune.

I was with him for a year before I couldn't stick it any more.

Yeah. He was evil alright. I can't repeat most of the stuff he told me.

My mother a narc was a different kind of evil, the covert secret type

just because freud said something that does not make it untrue. we still believe many things to be true that go back 100 years. einstein, anyone?

how do we know if anyone is insecure?

i am coming against my own narcissism in reading these posts... anything academic gets me going like that, part of why i left academia.

which, by the way, has nothing to do with not giving a ****. apathy is easy! i wouldnt get worked up if i didnt give a ****.

but we could just go on listing and judging all the people we define as narcissists and describe how horrible they were and how they could not possibly be insecure... point your finger at someone and there are three fingers pointing back at you.

current evidence for freud...

Attachment research has also shown that attachment insecurities are associated with pathological narcissism (e.g., 35). Whereas avoidant attachment is associated with overt narcissism or grandiosity, which includes both self-praise and denial of weaknesses 36, attachment anxiety is associated with covert narcissism, characterized by self-focused attention, hypersensitivity to other people’s evaluations, and an exaggerated sense of entitlement 36.

from An attachment perspective on psychopathology

Narcissistic individuals feel superior to others, fantasize about personal successes, and believe they deserve special treatment. When they feel humiliated, they often lash out aggressively or even violently. Unfortunately, little is known about the origins of narcissism. Such knowledge is important for designing interventions to curtail narcissistic development. We demonstrate that narcissism in children is cultivated by parental overvaluation: parents believing their child to be more special and more entitled than others. In contrast, high self-esteem in children is cultivated by parental warmth: parents expressing affection and appreciation toward their child. These findings show that narcissism is partly rooted in early socialization experiences, and suggest that parent-training interventions can help curtail narcissistic development and reduce its costs for society.

from http://www.pnas.org/content/112/12/3659.short

best yet...

The diagnostic focus on patients’ external characteristics and interpersonal behavior tends to dismiss the importance of their internal distress and painful experiences of self-esteem fluctuations, self-criticism, and emotional dysregulation. A collaborative and exploratory diagnostic approach to pathological narcissism and NPD is outlined that aims at engaging the patients and promoting their curiosity, narration, and self-reflection. Alliance building with a narcissistic patient is a slow and gradual process and mistakes are common. A central task is to balance these patients’ avoidance and sudden urges to reject the therapist and drop out of treatment with the goal of encouraging and enabling them to face and reflect upon their experiences and behavior. Implications for treatment and possible areas or indications of change include: interpersonal and vocational functioning; sense of agency and self-direction; emotion regulation and ability to understand, tolerate, and modulate feelings; reflective ability; and ability to mourn the loss of wished for or unreachable internal self-states, relationships, and external ideals.

http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/do...focus.11.2.167

note that these are all academic journal articles published relatively recently...