Support/Enabling

EXACTLY my point PLACE and thank you for getting what I try to say so poorly at times... Yes online it is way hard. ..I have at times outright asked for advice and at times drew a line and just wanted to vent./whine and be still and heard....its suck a fine line at PC that I think thats where some to many of the issues get stirred up

It isn't easy to tell the difference between support and enabling sometimes. Neither is it easy to determine whether someone needs advice or they just need to be heard. These are both issues that I have been learning about recently. I've noticed in my classes on counseling that almost everybody has a tendency to jump in and offer advice way too soon. It's easier said than done to wait and listen for a while first and understand how someone feels and what their real needs are. Often the need to feel understood and accepted as a human being is much more important than getting someone else's opinion on how to fix the problem. People will also make better use of solutions that they find themselves (including with help) than of answers that someone hands to them or even worse tries to force them to accept.

The question of supporting vs. enabling comes up constantly with the girls I work with in residential treatment. One girl could be struggling to pick up her belongings from the ground while already overloaded with other things she is carrying, and another walks by and refused to help her because "I don't want to be an enabler." One definition of enabling has to do with helping, but what the girls fail to realize is that helping isn't a bad thing. We just have to look at what we are helping or enabling someone to do. Helping a substance abuser to get access to drugs or to stay addicted in any way would be a bad kind of enabling. Helping a member here to continue wallowing in self-pity would go into the same category. But helping someone to understand themself and feel cared about is different. Sometimes it is hard to tell which is which though.

There is a lot of good support to be had here, and I'm sure there is some enabling too, so I voted yes on both.

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SleepsWithButterFlies said:
YES if we allowed someone to wallow too long for us....but then the question becomes WHO deternines when it is too long? THAT is where I think problems can arise.

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This speaks to my thoughts about the question. I'm not sure that everyone comes here with the intention to change. Some maybe are just looking for some humanity in a world which looks down on mental illness or those struggling with life problems. Although when we care about people, as this community fosters, we want to see them improve and feel better, there's no requirement that someone has to be looking to change to participate here.

There's a theory (Transtheoretical Model of Change by Prochaska and DiClemente) about stages of change that started in addictions work, but has been shown to be more widely applicable. It depends on where someone is along these stages what kind of intervention (i.e. support or advice) is effective. The early stages are: precontemplation, when the person does not consider their behavior or issue to be a problem, even if others do; and contemplation , when the person is beginning to consider changing a behavior or solving a problem but is not committed to it yet and does not quite know how to go about it. That is to say, they are thinking about changing, but they are not convinced they can or need to. In these stages, active strategies for change such as advice, direction, suggestions, etc. are NOT effective. The person is not committed to change, so even if they try the advice, they usually are not able to see it through when challenges come up (and they usually do!).

The more effective strategy in the early stages is something called motivational interviewing. This approach is designed to help the person think through the consequences (costs and benefits) of maintaining the status quo versus changing the behavior. If effective, and the person sees enough benefit to risk making a change versus the costs of making the change (It's hard, lifestyles may change, takes focused energy, etc.), only then is the person ready to begin to explore HOW to change. Once they have the committment and the knowledge of how to do it, then the person begins to actively tackle the problem.

I share this not so that we can all act as therapists or coaches, and not to lecture. But I have found this theory to be invaluable when trying to understand why someone seems "stuck" and why I might be getting frustrated in trying to help someone. When I am feeling this way in trying to help someone, I try to consider where in these stages (precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance, and relapse prevention ) the person is. Then I might need to re-assess whether my efforts match where they are in these stages.

So, short message: not everyone is ready to change, and our wellmeaning and caring suggestions may not be as effective early in a person's path to wellness.

Another sort of "global" way of thinking of support that I value is this: I believe that it's valuable for people to feel comfortable and accepted "in their own skin", just as they are, before they can feel free to change. This is a way of thinking that is similar to Dialectical Behavior Therapy, which balances acceptance of the person just as they are with the possibility of change. Imagine how much safer it might feel to try to work on improving if you felt accepted and cared for by others just as you are, while you are doing this for yourself?

Sorry so long....if you stuck with me in reading this, I thank you.

gg

Great post, Rapunzel!

gg

This question really got me thinking about the nature of support, and when support becomes enabling.

I think one of the key elements of "enabling" is shielding a person from the consequences of their actions. And I think that element is also the most difficult to navigate when trying to support without enabling. When you care about someone, you want to protect them, even from themselves. And it sure doesn't feel much like support if you stand by while someone gets themselves into trouble. In my experience, it is a very rare person who can really support someone without it ever crossing the line into enabling.

Of course, that element of enabling doesn't come into play here...we don't really have the ability to protect people from the consequences of their actions in the 3D world. But we can guide people toward an interpretation of their circumstances...did this thing happen because the world is cruel, or could there be someone we are doing to draw this cruelty toward us?

I think the nature of this site makes giving that kind of guidance extremely difficult. For instance, I go to group therapy once a week, and one of the people there has anger management issues. Well, she might come in and talk about how horrible someone at work was to her...but since this is a conversation, we will continue talking to her, and will eventually find out that the situation started with a minor incident, but she reacted in a very antagonistic manner, and escalated it into something big. So, we can help her work on ways to diffuse problems rather than escalating them. Well, at an online forum like this, the person posts the story about how someone was horrible to her at work, and we don't really have the ability to have the same back and forth to get at the root of things. So the responses will tend to focus on support and comfort, "oh, that's too bad," "what a horrible coworker you have!" I'm not sure there's anything that can be done to change that, and I don't think that there's really anything wrong with it, but perhaps it is an argument for why these types of forums should not be considered substitutes for therapy, but supplements.

It has been suggested here that we should respond to what someone is asking for...I tend to disagree that we should only offer advice to those asking for advice. After all, when someone is feeling really stuck, they are often in a place that is so helpless that they don't believe any advice will help, and so won't ask for it. But, I also think that the nature of an online forum means that when someone offers advice, they need to be very sensitive to the notion that the person may not be ready to accept it, and might even react negatively to it. It doesn't mean the person is really attacking the advice giver, just that they aren't at a place where they can recognize that the advice is well-intentioned. Maybe a rule of thumb when seeking to support through guidance would be to offer the advice, then back away, and accepting that the person may need to travel further down the path before they can acknowledge the guidance. Going back to my group therapy, it's *very* "guidance-oriented." We tend to call people on the carpet for repeating bad patterns, wallowing in self-pity, etc. But the difference is, there is a therapist there who is in charge of all of the conversations, so when someone feels attacked, she can bring things back around to a more comforting place. In a community support forum, there isn't a therapist making sure someone's not being given more "guidance" than they can handle, so I think it's really incumbent on people offering advice to be as gentle as possible.

As several people have suggested already, different forums have different atmospheres. I visit another site that is very guidance oriented...people are actrively encouraged to challenge each other's thinking and behaviors. But that is not a mental health site, it is a place where people are going specifically with the goal of recovering from a particular disorder. I think many people come here because it is a place to feel safe, comforted and supported. Therefore the atmosphere is going to be one more of gentle guidance that open challenge. These different atmospheres will suit different people, but that, as they say, is why God made chocolate *and* vanilla.

Hi!

Such good posting here. Grrrrrrrreat!!

mj, excellent post/reply. you always have been such a great person to talk to, offering support, guidance, and advice.
Your reply here, is fantastic.

Take care,
DE

Great post, mj. I've seen lots of support and some enabling here. I believe there's a different kind of enabling that I've also seen which hasn't been discussed yet.

I've seen and experienced both online and in my own life a negative spin on enabling that is very destructive, imo. I've seen people encourage others to do things that they know isn't in anyones' best interest, yet they do it for the sake of upsetting the other person or many people. Sometimes it is simply a case of flaming someone. Other times it's more complicated. I've seen people deliberately pester people, criticize people and disagree with people. I think this is a cruel and uncalled for type of manipulation.

It's usually very difficult to see this until you've already reacted to it.....at least it is for me. I used to read all of the posts here at the forums and saw when it happened to someone other than myself. Sometimes when one person started such behavior, others would join in too.

I hope we can all stick to support in the future without any intentional enabling of the destructive kind. Unintentional enabling is one thing but deliberately enabling for the purpose of manipulating, hurting or demoralizing someone can in no way be considered accidental or supportive.

Tomi, I think this thread has been a real eye opener for many of us. Thank you.

Sky, I'm with you right up to the last paragraph. I'm not arguing with you but I'm wondering if you'd clarify the "I Statement" comment.

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We need to say something like , "This thread is upsetting me" rather than "I hate the conflict this thread is creating on site."

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What were you told and how did you come to understand that it's better to address the "thread" rather than how you feel about It?

In therapy *I* was taught to make "I statements;" I feel, I think, etc. It shows "ownership" of the feelings and thoughts rather than blaming Someone. I choose to follow what I was taught about communication by a professional. Again, a reminder; I'm not arguing with YOU or your words. What I question is you were told you were speaking in generalities and had to make it more personal, but when it came to your feelings or thoughts, you were to speak in more general terms?? To me, that's crazy making. Shed some light on this, would you please?

If you meant what I think you did, which was to ignore a thread if it bothered you, I can agree with that. We need to learn to take responsibility for ourselves; learn to take better care of ourselves and not pawn it off on the mods and Admin. (I expect to hear dissention on THAT statement! Not necessarily from you, though. )

I'm with you. I don't much care about other sites. I care about THIS one. It's by far the best one I've run across.

For myself, listening with my "heart" rather than with my ears is what defines the difference between advice and support. "Advice" is so different from support, though...

Something *I* wrestle with is knowing when to NOT give advice. Some people don't need "answers" at a given point in time. All they need is a heart felt "I understand." Some people don't even want to hear that you've been in the same place they are at a given time. That one is tough! I get angry at myself when I blow that one.

Sleeps, I wasn't arguing or trying to make things any clearer than they already were. By posting the meaning of "support," it was just a point of information for myself as well as others. My intention was to have the different meanings of "support" read and maybe even picked apart... not in argument form but in realization that there is room for confusion as to whether we or someone else is "enabling" rather than "supporting." That was my ONLY intention. If you will see, I responded to myself. LOL

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lady D}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you, Hun.

Walking on egg shells... wouldn't that be the flip side of the coin? I'm so sorry you feel that way.

Great post, Wendy!

Thank you so much for this clarification, GG!! It will help me tremendously when I start to get frustrated... as I am now!

Thanks for knocking me off the pedestal I sometimes tend to climb up on. LOL

MJ! Very enlightening post! It's so good to read so many definitions of what support, enabling and help really mean! Gives so much to think about.

Thank you so much!

Susan, thank you for bringing this up!! This kind of enabling/manipulation used to happend to me when married to my first husband. It IS demoralizing and crazy making! Not going to say any more because I'll start ranting and trigger myself!

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Sky, I'm with you right up to the last paragraph. I'm not arguing with you but I'm wondering if you'd clarify the "I Statement" comment.

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We need to say something like , "This thread is upsetting me" rather than "I hate the conflict this thread is creating on site."

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I interpreted this the opposite that you did Sept... I didn't take the meaning as focusing on the "I" in the beginning of the second statement, but rather on the "me" in the first statement, which I interpreted as the "'I' statement" example even though it didn't use the word I. I think I took that that way because that's the one focused on the feelings of the person commenting, rather than making a judgement about what is going on at the site. Which is what I think you were trying to say, Sept, and I agree with.

I can't speak to what Sky meant to say (and I apologize if I appear to be putting words into your mouth) but I think it is also interesting how two people can read the same thing and interpret it entirely differently... one of the problems with an online community (and sometimes also IRL, but at least you have emphasis and tone of voice to help you out IRL)

Hmmm, this isn't about sick humor , so I'm not sure how to interpret your post.

I certainly was not aiming at your pedestal with my post. Perhaps my soap box/pedestal bumped your pedestal? I'm a klutz, you know. But anyone who can share a good Dr. Demento song is okay in my book.

I just really love that theory, so I wanted to share it. I really hate that frustrated, "why isn't this helping?" feeling, and this helps me reframe my frustration. The subject of your thread just got me to thinking.

Take care,
gg

AWESOME POST GG....One of the most thought provoking..I hope everyone reads it more than once...I will come back to this

Ozzie another great point...
Rapunzel another good post
Sky yes so well said I statements are the best and we should all try to do that more..

Mj another great post

I haven't seen any posts in here that aren't good as well and well thought out

Thing is most of the indepth posts if you look at them all point to KNOWING where that person is .....what their background is...where they are on on the road....and pointing out we are NOT the T in group threapy...we are not a trained T hired by that client....we can do our best but also try to do our best to not be so presumptuous as to tell someone to stop wallowing...Who are WE to know where they are AT and where they have COME from to say such a thing..I could and would never do that to someone....

So many good points now...what are we going to do with them??????????? For me I am going to try to watch my I statements ....and try not to push someone who may need to take 5 times as long to get something as I did......OR just support someone who may WANT or NEED something I don't...and maybe more

In the caregivers area there is a thread with a quote by Søren Kierkegaard.....I will not quote it all cause you can go down there but to me its wraps right back to GGs wonderfully thoughtful post




"When it shall really be possible to lead a person to a specific place, one first of all has to be careful to find where he is and start from there.

This is the secret of the art of helping. Anyone who is not able to do so is simply seducing himself into believing that he is able to help others.

To really help another person I must understand more than him but first of all understand what he understands. " end of part of quote

"Dead puppies... aren't much fun..." OH!!! wrong thread! LMAO

Sincerely, GG... I tend to get "self-righteous" at times... or so I've been told... or that "it's my way or the highway"... Your post gave me a gentle nudge. Could you help it if I was standing on one foot and I fell off? No... LOL

You're not kluzy either, from what I've seen. I am/was totally sincere in what I said. Thank you!

When it's sick and when it's not, I really do like your humor... including this little guy... I'm giggling at him as I type... hehehehe

Thanks for the much needed giggles...

Giggling is good.

gg (hey, maybe that's what gg really stands for!)