[Greenleaves]

I have a BPD and right now I have a big problem with threatening suicide, especially to this admin guy on another site.

Whenever I get upset, I start threatening suicide or self harm. It get pretty threatening and sometimes I'm scared for myself.

When I get upset I tend to do things without thinking...like send threatening emails to that admin guy.

I keep threatening and then later apologizing. How do I help myself? How do I stop being so upset and impulsive?

basically when like this on line support groups are not what you need to help yourself. The best help for yourself when you are like this is the local ER / police/ ambulance and therapist services in your area. All website administrators and owners of sites I have been members of restrict or ban members who are in active threatening frames of mind because it causes everyone else on the site to become upset and feel helpless because there is no way we can while on line actually prevent a person from carrying out a suicide threat - everyone (or most every one) logs in under fake names, sometimes even locations. The only person that could locate the person is the owner of the website IF they have tracking capabilities, and then all they can do is place a call to the persons local police and the person is either arrested and taken to the local ER for immediate involuntary commitment or they are arrested for making false threats of harm to themselves and or others. Both making suicidal threats real or fake is illegal in the united states. Which is why admistrators restrict or ban such behavior - regardless of the persons mental diagnosis.

[shellie0126]

Greenleaves:

I don't know where you live, but....speaking from vast experience I can tell you that in many, many states it is a LAW that if you attempt suicide, or even just utter that you are thinking about it (or even the word) and a police officer, or anyone in the medical field hears you they have to have you arrested and put into a mental hospital for a minimum of 72 hours. This also applies to threatening someone physically. Let me tell you...it is not at all fun, and will make you much more upset. I am not kidding with you or exaggerating one bit.

In addition, any shrink or your family can have you committed against your will. If nothing else, maybe that will deter you from continuing that behavior. Good luck and hope you are doing better. I'm curious, are you on any mood stabilizers? My shrink put me on Tegratol and it has helped tremendously.

[Myzen]

Greenleaves,

I can feel how hard it is for you just now. Please remember that it is not your fault that you are ill, there is no need to blame yourself for feeling this way.

I agree with the other posters that you do need some 3d help, and I am sure you are strong enough to get some help sorted out.

It is hard to be honest about our behaviour when it feels so weird, and you have done really well IMHO.

Good thoughts, M

[Greenleaves]

Making suicide threats is illegal? What about threats of self harm? Does that mean I can get arrested and put into jail for that?

I believe my threats when I make them. I believe that I'm serious about them at that time. I've already been involuntarily held in a hospital before for ODing, does this mean they will lock me up for longer if I do it again? Someone told me they would hold me for longer.

So far I haven't been banned for making threats, both on the site and via e-mail. I'm currently banned for 4 weeks for doing something unrelated. I got upset and made a lot of threats.

I can't seem to control my behaviour, even though I'm going to meet this admin guy in real life in May, along with some other posters.

I just don't know what is going to happen.

[Greenleaves]

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I can tell you that in many, many states it is a LAW that if you attempt suicide, or even just utter that you are thinking about it (or even the word) and a police officer, or anyone in the medical field hears you they have to have you arrested and put into a mental hospital for a minimum of 72 hours.

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I'm in Canada, so I don't know if the same laws apply. I don't think an off duty police officer would arrest me. I also know that a person who is in the medical field (who is actually treating me) won't always have me put in a mental hopsital for making threats. I know this because I've done this. I know for sure that just any person in the medical field will not have me arrested, the only risk is with someone who is actually treating me.

I'm not on any mood stabilzers. I'm on Celexa, Wellbutrin and Risperdal.

[Genevieve]

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Greenleaves said:
Making suicide threats is illegal? What about threats of self harm? Does that mean I can get arrested and put into jail for that?

I believe my threats when I make them. I believe that I'm serious about them at that time. I've already been involuntarily held in a hospital before for ODing, does this mean they will lock me up for longer if I do it again? Someone told me they would hold me for longer.

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Not jail, but you can be involuntarily hospitalized again, and at least in the US there is a progression they can use: first a 72 hour hold, then a 14 day hold, which can be renewed.

And considering how much distress you've been experience, hospitalization might be the best course for you. Do you like hearing that? I doubt it, and I wish that you could understand that YOU have control over these things. If you can find an alternative to making these threats, then you wouldn't risk time in the psych ward. And while your feelings are something that will take a long, long time to learn to cope with, your behavior is something you can learn to control right now.

Remember: no one else is responsible for your feelings -- and while you're not able to control your reactions nor your feelings, you are always the one who decides your behavior.

Good luck. I do hope that you learn to cope better, and that you get hte support you need on the way there.

[Greenleaves]

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And while your feelings are something that will take a long, long time to learn to cope with, your behavior is something you can learn to control right now.

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Behaviour, I can learn to control my behaviour, but it's really hard to control my behaviour sometimes. If I could control my behaviour all the time, I wouldn't have most of the problems I've been having with people. It's really hard Genevieve, really hard.

You know how hard it is for people with eating disorders to change their behaviour right? It feels like the same for me. I know my behaviour is dangerous and hurts people, but I still do it.

I have to learn to replace my current behaviours with better ones. I've got to do it until it becomes second nature.

Sometimes I wonder...I wonder if I really do want to go to the hopital again, to escape life and yell and scream and just lose control. It's not good for me to escape life like that...it's usually counterproductive to hospitalize people with BPD. I have to learn to deal with things.

Right now I think I need to learn some relaxation techniques...

[Genevieve]

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Greenleaves said:
Behaviour, I can learn to control my behaviour, but it's really hard to control my behaviour sometimes. If I could control my behaviour all the time, I wouldn't have most of the problems I've been having with people. It's really hard Genevieve, really hard.

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OK. It's hard. But you know what? You never start by controlling your behavior all the time. And trying to only sets you up for failure. How about being realistic here, since this is for your benefit. Try to control one behavior a day, maybe? Grab a kitchen timer and pace yourself -- "I can still have hysterics, but I have to wait three minutes first before I express them." See what works for you. Or learn to question your own beliefs before you react to them. Your other post about AdminGuy? How about, before you go into that world of hurt you go to, you ask yourself whether that's really true? Ask yourself other reasons he might not respond to one of your emails? Maybe he hasn't read it yet? Maybe he has thirty emails from his paid job that he has to handle before he can deal with his website? Maybe it has nothing to do wiht liking or not liking you?

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You know how hard it is for people with eating disorders to change their behaviour right? It feels like the same for me.

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Actually, I very much doubt that. What's more, that really feels like hostility directed at me, GreenLeaves. If you don't like the form of my support, or you don't think I am writing this because I care that you get some support in trying to learn new coping strategies, please tell me. I won't waste the time I take anymore if that's the case.

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I know my behaviour is dangerous and hurts people, but I still do it.

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No, your behavior doesn't hurt people. Your behavior hurts YOU. That's something that you need to learn, that YOU are the one who is hurt by your behavior, not other people. Doesn't that give you some incentive to work at it?

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I have to learn to replace my current behaviours with better ones. I've got to do it until it becomes second nature.

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OK, so what are you going to do to make that happen? Or are you only going to say you need to do it? How are you going to start? What is your first step?

If you decide to do something about this, and you follow through with it, you will get far. You need professional help, in your real life, in the face to face world, but you can do it -- if you decide to do so. That's up to you.

the grounds for involuntary commitment to a mental health facility in the united states is - making threats and or actions of self injury, suicidal, homicide. at the minimum a person recieves a 72 hour hold for obsevation and diagnosis , medication stabilization and possible arrest depending on the treatment teams reports.

After 72 hours the treatment team meets and decides what to do - release no conditions, release with conditions, release for criminal arrest, held in commitment for the next 14 days.

at 14 days the treatment team meets again recommending release same as above or send to a long term (indefinately and more secure) facilities.

Basically the person can be held in a mental health unitl until the treatment team deems the person is no longer a threat to themself and or others.

Since you are in canada you might want to contact mental health agencies and the police to find out exactly what is going to happen to you if you still cannot "seem to control" your behavior. Most likely they have the same protocal or very simular for such behavior.

With technowlegy, medication and a very wide ranged nation wide services for mental health the police now rarely accept "I have this so I can't control myself" excuses. Now the person is just held in commitment to mental health facilities until they are deemed sane enough to stand trial for their crimes. For example one rapist who could not seem to control his behavior tried to say he was incompetent and he was held in a prison and or secure mental health unit for about 5 years and then was convicted and is now serving a life sentence with no parole. This man will die in prison.

[Greenleaves]

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Grab a kitchen timer and pace yourself -- "I can still have hysterics, but I have to wait three minutes first before I express them."

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Do you really think I'm hysterical? I think what you mean is that I express myself in ways that are not the norm here. I have to learn to express myself in ways that will result in more positive outcomes.

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Actually, I very much doubt that. What's more, that really feels like hostility directed at me, GreenLeaves.

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I think you may be seeing something that isn't there. I just wanted to make you understand how difficult it is for me. I respect that eating disorders are extremely difficult to overcome and complex, as is BPD. I'm not saying they are the same at all...just that it's difficult to overcome. You offer wonderful advice to me, but sometimes it seems like people expect me to change just like that...I can't.

It just seems like people think that if I get help everything will be OK. Well...newsflash...I'm already getting very good help. I've gotten psychotherapy for years. I've been on meds for years. I've slowly...very slowly gotten better but people still complain that I need more help. No one notices that I'm doing better. It just seems like I'm never good enough. I just want people to accept me the way I am. I'm not going to be able to change overnight. This is going to takes years and years. Nothing, not even seeing a T twice a week for years will create much of a dent in my behaviour. I've gotten a lot of help. I'm still the way I am.

What happens when I decided to see a T twice a week and I'm still the way I am? What will people say then?

[Greenleaves]

I make threats all the time to my pdoc. I get extremely upset. Once I even took an OD right before my appointment with her. She didn't have me committed because she understands that I really don't want to kill myself. She won't punish me by committing me. She tries to help me by getting me to see what the real issues are.

Also, I'm a little offended that you are comparing me to a criminal rapist. I have never in my life broken the law or gotten into trouble...not even in elementary school. I have never in my life been violent towards anyone, other than the playfights I had between me and my little sister.

I never thought for one moment that just because a person is mentally ill that they should be let off the hook for their crimes. Andrea Yates, for example...the mother who drowned her children because she was in a psychotic postpardum depression...many believe that she should be given parole. I don't think so. I think she belongs in prison for what she has done..psychosis or not.

I'm offended that you presume to know what my beliefs are.

[Greenleaves]

I'm sorry Myself, for getting angry. I have to cool down a bit before I post.

I dont presume to know your beliefs I am going by your own words "I can not control myself" " You asked me if they can hold you indefinately because you can't control yourself and you believe what you are threatening when you threaten and I answered that questionbased on those sentences that you yourself posted about the problem and your own belief -

yes here in the USA the mental health professionals and the police can hold people who cannot seem to control their behavior because they say they have a disorder and they do so and then I gave you an example of one of many such cases that I know in which it happened. I also know a shop lifter that was held for a year, I also know a schitophenic who thought the governemt was out to get her that has beein in a MHU now for 3 years, I also know of a bipolor that ends up in units for 6 months at a time, I also know of a DID that lands in MHU for three months all of which got arrested for things like making threats of harm to themselves and or others and claim they couldn't control themselves. Some also recieved criminal charges and punishments ranging from fines, community services to jail time. I myself was sitting in a court room February 2001 listening while lawyers and a judge discussed whether or not to have me conmmitted, arrested or released and mandated into therapy. for what - cutting myself, and punching myself in the leg and threatening suicide. I got VERY lucky court mandated therapy at the discression of my therapist which lasted 3 years. I too hgave never broken the law but have landed in the hospital for ODing.- Seldane, Chloral Hydtrate and motrin to be exact. My therapists try to help me too but they also have to follow the laws of this state and nation and the mental health profession. All of which agree with the protocal of what happens here in the united states when someone is making threats of harm to themselfs and or others, regardless of diagnosis and past criminal history.

[Greenleaves]

I don't know how it is in the USA, but here they don't like to keep people in hospital if they are not a real threat to themselves or others.

When I was in the hospital after ODing the nurses told me that it costs a LOT of money to keep me there. Once my 72 hours was over, they let me out pronto because I really wasn't a threat to myself. They even let me have an overnight pass because I was getting anxious in the hospital.

There is no reason to hold someone in a hospital if they are not a threat to themselves or others. It's not about punishment, it's about helping the person.

I know its not a punishment. here they dont see arresting for making threats and or actions of self harm and suicide they see it as getting people who would not otherwise get help for themselves get and recieve the help that they need.

I find it interesting that you say here on this threat that you mean what you say when you threaten these things but in real time with therapists they know you dont mean them.

That right there in my opinion tells me that you CAN control yourself especially within the sight so to speak of a therapist so I am choosing to leave this thread and whether or not you willfully choose to take the steps to control yourself just like in my opinion you are choosing whether or not to not control yourself outside of the sight of therapists. good luck and take care.

[Genevieve]

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Greenleaves said:
Do you really think I'm hysterical? I think what you mean is that I express myself in ways that are not the norm here. I have to learn to express myself in ways that will result in more positive outcomes.

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Do I think you're hysterical? Define hysterical. And then tell me another way to describe what it is you do. Should I use the phrase "Emotional Dysregulation?" Would you prefer "Emotional Lability?" I hope you have not missed my point, simply because you are caught up in the words I used to express them.

And I think you know that it's not just about expressing yourself in ways that are not the norm.

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You offer wonderful advice to me, but sometimes it seems like people expect me to change just like that...I can't.

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No, GL, I think what people expect is that you make an effort to change. Right now, I've seen a lot of your threads that show you escalating rapidly, and none in which you show any effort to challenge your own beliefs. I've seen you accuse other people of not being fair to you, but none in which you show that you are willing take responsibility for your behavior. Do I expect that you can do any of this overnight? Or even this year? No, of course not. But it would be nice to see you show that you are doing something in your own behalf.

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It just seems like people think that if I get help everything will be OK. Well...newsflash...I'm already getting very good help. I've gotten psychotherapy for years. I've been on meds for years. I've slowly...very slowly gotten better but people still complain that I need more help. No one notices that I'm doing better. It just seems like I'm never good enough. I just want people to accept me the way I am. I'm not going to be able to change overnight. This is going to takes years and years. Nothing, not even seeing a T twice a week for years will create much of a dent in my behaviour. I've gotten a lot of help. I'm still the way I am.

What happens when I decided to see a T twice a week and I'm still the way I am? What will people say then?

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Greenleaves, go back and read that over. Use it to challenge yourself, and see where you get.

What will people say if you go to therapy twice a week and stay the same? That you're not working in therapy. At least, that's my guess. Therapy isn't something that happens to us, it's something we work at, if we want to change. In your case, if you prefer, you can put your energy into changing other people so that we all accept you as is, or you could put some energy into correcting some cognitive distortions, or just learning to soothe yourself when you get upset.

Oh, and please think about what you're asking from other people when you threaten suicide. Frankly, I would say that threatening that regularly would be a sign that hospitalization would be appropriate, providing there is intensive therapy to help you learn alternate coping strategies.

[Rapunzel]

Greenleaves, I've been put in jail for self-injury. It's not fun. When you make threats to hurt or kill yourself it does have a big impact on other people, and it isn't fair to expect people at online support groups to deal with that. People do care about you, and it is frustrating when you need more help than they can give you and there is nothing they can do about it.

I really do understand about how hard it is to change. I'm there too. I really feel sorry for my therapist lately because even though I want to cooperate, I'm just not getting it most of the time. We just have to keep trying and we do have to have consideration for others and not lash out against people who are trying to help. It's hard not to get defensive. But keep trying, ok?

Rap

[shellie0126]

Greenleaves:

I think you and I have a lot in common in terms of impulse control. I am not trying to spin this conversation about me, but I want to just tell you what is working for me, and have you just be open to the "possibility" of listening to what I am doing, and I hope it will be of some help to you.

I have seriously attempted suicide 5 times. (I was very serious about it, each attempt got more serious, and I obviously suck at it as I'm still here. I guess I was not meant to die)4 of those attempts were through overdosing with alcohol and a variety of pills. The other time was through carbon minoxide poisoning (I got out of the car right as I was falling asleep and I was seriously sick for about 10 days.) These attempts were all done when I was alone, and in three different states, Indiana, Georgia, and Florida. In regard to the law, here is my experience. In Indiana I was admitted to the ER and released when I was off the ventilator and stable. No commitment to a mental facility as they do not have that law in Indiana, but they do have a law that if you tell your doc that you are sucidal or will hurt someone they will commit you. In regard to my attempts in Georgia and Florida, they have the same laws..after I was released from the medical hospital (while in the medical hospital I had to have a nurse in my room all the time as I was viewed as a suicide threat) I was kindly taken by a sheriff to a mental hospital. The law states a minimum of 72 hours, but can be indefinite based upon how you are doing. If you are not making an EFFORT to get better by attending all the group sessions, etc. you will NOT get released. There were people in all of these facilities that had been in there for weeks. Do you want to do that? NO, I doubt it.

Now, here is what I have found IS working (whew, finally something positive.) First, I know what it is like to have impulse control. Here is what my therapist has taught me to do when getting ready to do something stupid / impulsive.....take a deep breath, and say to yourself, "if this is a good idea to do now, it will still be a good idea to do tomorrow!" It works. In addition, I just recently got put on mood stabilizers and the change is incredibly dramatic. I have been on anti depressants and anti anxiety meds for years, but the mood stabilizers are what is making the HUGE difference. Lastly, I have been attending classes on Women's Coping Skills. Really helping as I have no coping skills other than to open a bottle of wine.

Greenleaves, I hope you are doing better, and you are not alone. If you want to talk privately, pm me. Take care.

[HelgaDE]

Greenleaves, Take it from my experience. NEVER threaten suicide online. I was on an AOL chat room a long time ago and had some rough moments and threaten to kill myself in a chat room with an AOL Chat room host.... Obviously the chat host had a duty of reporting the incident and the next day... while I was chatting away in the same chat room... A police officer came to my house and knocked at my door. I was so scared that I had a hard time remembering what I've done to cause this. My father open the door and actually took the blame.. Not only I caused a police officer to come knocking at my door but a Social worker came to my dad's work to get him some therapy! LOL sounds funny but it's a hard fact.

As far as the law goes... I live in Florida... The law is called the Baker act law. If somebody threatens suicide or attempts a police officer, Psychatrists, therapists,etc. have rights to arrest you and to take you to a local hospital for forced threatment.. the amount of time is 47 hours. This includes threatening other peoples life or attempted. Too many baker acts and the local hospital might consider sending you to the state hospital where you get long term treatment.