[dogtanian]

i'm diagnosed bipolar, but i now have it in my head that i have a personality disorder. i've sort of been wondering it anyway, because there's been a lot of discussion by others on a BP forum i go on about what is BPD and what's not, and it all just seems to fit. last week, my pdoc said that he didn't think i had a PD but could completely see why other doctors had thought i might have. he said that certain traits come to the fore when i'm depressed that could easily be mistaken for PD. what i didn't tell him was that these things don't just come up, they're always there, bubbling away, to some extent. sure, they get WORSE when i'm depressed (or manic, or mixed, seeing as i have a tendency to dysphoric mania) but i feel many of these things all the time. these are things i've never really admitted to anyone, no doctors, no family, no friends, not even myself. my sessions with the Tdoc are bringing these things up but they've always been there.

the other thing is that my parents, when they've taken me to counsellors or tdocs over my erratic behaviour, which started in early childhood, they always said that i "behaved like an abused child". this was something i never understood, although i can see that i do. i had very invasive surgery when i was a little baby, i had a police escort in an ambulance from the hospital i was born in to great ormond street (the noise of police cars and ambulances still really freaks me out), i was in an incubator for a long time and had more than one pretty major operation.

i've looked at the DSMIV and to be honest, none of the criteria for any specific PD fits, but i do get bits of a couple of them. i was looking at an article about borderline, and a lot of it seemed to fit.

these are from a couple of the PDs, and these all seem true, from my point of view. who knows what outsiders think?

(1) neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
(2) almost always chooses solitary activities
(3) has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person

the first, i dunno, i guess i have loads of friends, but almost all of them live a long way away. apart from one, i don't have many london friends. well there's a crowd i know, but apart from having two of them as housemates (who i avoid most of the time, not because i don't like them but because i hate them being in my space), i haven't seen or spoken to any of them in months, nor have i wanted to.

i increasingly prefer to do things alone, i always have, really, but it's getting more pronounced. i go to the cinema alone, i go to the theatre and gigs alone, i sit in pubs or restaurants alone and read, and don't like to be interrupted. it's getting increasingly clear that i just don't like company that much. if i choose to see a friend, fine, i enjoy it, but the reason i like my friends is that none of them pressure me to do things with them, it's quite intermittent and very much within certain terms.

as for my family: on an intellectual level, i get on ok with them. i like them as people, but i certainly don't feel ANY bond with them, i don't "love" them, i just think they're ok, nice enough people. no more, no less. however things they do, when they assume that because they feel these bonds, i must do to, really really gets to me. i hate that they assume things for me.

as for sex, well, i've declared myself celibate. i'm happy with that. i always hated sex, i could never see the point in it, and now i'm glad i've chosen to ignore and avoid it. the odd thing is that i can't even watch it in films or on tv. i'm like a kid, i'll have my hands over my eyes and my fingers in my ears, and i actually physically squirm in the seat. i HATE it.

next bunch:

(1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.

this is one i've been trying to deny for, like, ever. basically, i really don't have a bond with my parents. or any of my family. however, ever since i was quite young, if mum and dad went away on holiday or something, i would go mad. literally. i would have gigantic tantrums when i was little. when i was at school probably 80% of my severe manic/angry episodes coincided with them going away. i remember they were called back from spain once because i was locked in a loo with knives yelling at the headmistress that she was a %#@&#! %#@&#!. as i got older, almost all my hospital admissions coincided with them going abroad. the time i went in the priory, mum had to come back from france to attend to me. there have been other times as well, more than i can remember.

the stupid thing is once they got back (whether it be early or not) i would reject them, i hated that they were fussing over me, i hated their attention, i hated that they came back because it made out i was manipulating them. there were a couple of times, once being the time i went to the priory and antoher being when i was in springfield briefly, that i didn't want to talk to or see them, and i was terribly ashamed that they should know what was going on, so what did i do? i called my brother. who i hardly ever speak to normally. and of course, i suppose, deep down i knew he'd call them. what's that all about? it was like i manipulated the situation, even though i was clearly unwell.

it's taken me YEARS to admit that i had problems with them going away. i'd sort of vaguely started admitting it to myself a few months ago. it's really hard to say it, publicly, so to speak, because i don't for the life of me understand it. if i was a real mummy or daddy's girl, it would make sense. but i'm not.

my tdoc reckons it's because they left me in the hospital as a baby and it's an abandonment thing, i don't know, i guess it makes sense. more and more things are beginning to make sense if i think of them in light of how i must've felt as a tiny baby in an incubator being prodded with needles and scalpels. it also explains the self harm, at least to me, because hey, needles/scalpels = anaesthetic/being made "better".

(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

hmm i dunno, my past sexual relationships certainly fit this. an intense few weeks long affair, followed by getting bored of said person, chucking them and then slagging them off to all and sundry.

(3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self

hmmm... dunno. i'm quite happy in myself at the moment, i like who i am: apart from the family thing which i can't get my head around. however, i have had lots of changes in the past, i've sort of manipulated some things from my past to make the present seem more acceptable to others. god, isn't that awful? i'll say no more....

(4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex)

yup, in my manic phases i could spend for england, but even in normal state, i find it hard not to. i can easily spend a month's income in 2 weeks, every month, and have done most months since i started working, i think. as for sex, in the old days it was get drunk, shag someone. that's the other thing, i never could control my drink thing in the past. now i almost don't like drinking, i just don't like the taste, but that's probably a good thing.

(5) recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

er, yes, well....

(6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

i don't know, it's hard to tell what with being BP, but i do get these weird moods, where i'll feel pissed off with someone for something really minor for ages, and then suddenly feel ok again. like, if someone tells me they're changing a plan we've made, i feel incredibly cheated, i feel anxious, i actually start getting towards anxiety attack, i feel so anxious. although this happens more when i'm depressed anyway, it does get to me at other times.

(8) inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

i get very intense and uncontrollable anger. i feel that it's because, especially when i'm depressed, i feel that if i ask things of people i know, even just to ask them to do something small, they will hate me. so i just don't talk to them, i do the tasks myself, and build up anger. then, when i go out, if a bus driver, for example, looks at me funny, i will let rip, call them every name under the sun, threaten to kill them. this can happen 3 or 4 times in one journey. i have no control of it, i sort of feel it building but it's like a little mask comes down and yells. it's like i can hear what i'm saying but it's not me saying it. then, i sit and seethe and then start feeling guilty. the thing is i know this is wrong, i even say to myself as i leave that i won't do it, but i do.

admittedly, this worse when i'm depressed and worse still if i'm manic but i am an intensely irritable person anyway, little things bother me that shouldn't. i always try to sit on it which usually ends up in my taking it out on myself.

(9) transient, stress-related paranoid ideation

when i'm depressed i think everyone hates me, and if i talk to them they'll hate me even more. i don't know why, it's pathetic.

so there..... i think i'm probably imagining things, at least i hope so, but i have this niggle. it's like i haven't been honest with the doctors, they don't know this stuff, i've never said it out loud.

Hey. I think it might be helpful to think a bit about what the point of dx is... Basically... It is about facilitating treatment. If there is a medication that tends to help people with a certain disorder then if you are dx'd with that disorder your clinician's might think to give you that medication, whereas otherwise they wouldn't. Trouble is that most disorders aren't like that... Medication tends to help certain SYMPTOMS rather than certain DX'S - though sometimes being dx'd with a certain dx can mean you qualify for medication you couldn't otherwise obtain.

But that isn't so for personality disorders. Therapy seems to be the treatment of choice, medications only assists with symptoms you don't see the reduction in symptoms that you find with other kinds of disorders.

What else is dx good for?

Some people find it helps make sense of their life. I'm a little different from most because I see dx's as descriptions of symptoms. That is all dx's ARE. Short hand abbreviations for symptoms. Sometimes there are theories of why those symptoms tend to co-occur but mostly that is the level of theory precisely because people don't really know.

What would dx of a personality disorder buy you?

I tend to find dx unhelpful because then people see me through the lens of a theory and instead of ASSESSING whether I have certain symptoms or not they are primed to look for them, they are primed to ASSUME that I have them. And I find... That harms more than it helps.

What would dx of a personality disorder buy you?

Regarding the other things you have said...

Sounds like you have an insecure attachment to your parents (join the club lol). Sounds like you got upset when they left you as a kid... But you say that now you don't feel so close to them...

I'm wondering whether you avoid people because you are afraid they will leave you and hence you don't really let yourself get attached...

Or whether you simply prefer to spend a lot of time by yourself.

I like to spend a fair bit of time by myself... But I think I spend more time alone than I would otherwise 'cause I'm a little afraid of people... People tend to hurt me... So I draw back and try not to get too close as a way of protecting myself against future harms.

People differ in the amount of social contact they need to be happy...

Some people do choose to be celibate. Are you on psych meds? Sometimes they can lower urges for sexual activity considerably (sometimes that seems to go out the window altogether).

I would say... That it would be a good idea to talk to your clinician's about what is going on for you.

Re dx... I don't know what a personality disorder dx would buy you... Except for a whole heap more harm.

Dx doesn't matter... So long as you can be honest about what is going on for you...

I can identify somewhat with most DSM dx's (as can most people and as do psych students who tend to see themselves via almost every dx while they are studying them). You can see yourself through the lens of a dx... But what does it buy you?

I know I had enough problems (more than enough) without people assuming I had all these other ones too solely in virtue of my dx... And I know I had enough problems (more than enough) without getting worried about all these other symptoms and dx's that I may or may not have...

[dogtanian]

thanks for that, it's reassuring, really. i think you're right, and i should look at the symptoms on their own rather than through a lens of something else. i don't want to be PD (no offence to those of you who are), but i just have this niggle.

as for the sex thing, it's not the meds. i am on bipolar meds, but the sex thing is different, it's not a loss of interest, it's a suddenly realising that i don't have to do this thing that i despise and that makes me sick if i don't want to.

i'm probably just being paranoid about all this, i don't know.

hey there. yeah. i don't even worry so much about symptoms as i worry about:
am i happy with my life / the way my life is going?
what would i like to change about my life / the way my life is going so i can be happier?

whatever you list... those are the things you want to work on. i mean... sometimes there are things that people need to work on that people don't recognise as a problem... but you have family and you have clinicians so let them worry about those i say ;-)

if you could think about the person you would like to be...

what is holding you back from there?

that can be what you choose to work on.

:-)

> as for sex, well, i've declared myself celibate. i'm happy with that. i always hated sex, i could never see the point in it, and now i'm glad i've chosen to ignore and avoid it.

sounds like you are fairly happy with your choice :-)
sometimes... society can struggle a little... but IMO that is their problem... you aren't hurting anyone else and i would say that that is your decision to make. i don't think there is anything 'abnormal' (in the clinical sense) about that. so long as you are happy with your choice.

> the odd thing is that i can't even watch it in films or on tv. i'm like a kid, i'll have my hands over my eyes and my fingers in my ears, and i actually physically squirm in the seat. i HATE it.

i hate it too. my personal take... (just my personal take and i respect and appreciate that other people feel differently) but my personal take... is that sex is a very intimate act. as such i don't appreciate it been shown on tv. i also typically feel revolted in response to porn. my inclination is to worry about the girls (in particular) and to feel sick in response.

that is a fairly idiosyncratic response, i dare say. most people don't feel that way. i enjoy sex plenty, and i don't even have any notions about sex being 'dirty' or anything like that... i've been known to have the odd casual fling just for the fun of it... but the idea of sexual relations between people when one of the people (or even more than one) isn't really in the position to give true informed consent (i.e., because of history of abuse so they don't see they have options, or because they can't financially cope otherwise etc)... i find that repulsive. i don't think i need therapy for that, however. if i consider my idealised self... i'm happy with my having that response. i like to think it is awareness of possible injustice... i like to think it motivates me to speak out... i like to think... that if others had a comperable attitude... that women would be better placed in society (and guys too 'cause IMO that kind of thing promotes harmful masculine stereotypes too).

> the sex thing is different, it's not a loss of interest, it's a suddenly realising that i don't have to do this thing that i despise and that makes me sick if i don't want to.

okay. you don't have to answer this on the board (i understand if you don't want to)... but do you masterbate? actually... according to kaplan and saddock's 'Synopsis of Psychiatry' that isn't the question to ask... The question to ask is: How often to you masterbate?

(Apparantly if you ask 'do you masterbate' people tend to say 'no', wheras if you ask 'how often do you masterbate' people tend to blush and then fess up)

;-)

What I am getting at... Is do you have sexual interest (in the sense of a physical drive) or not?

The point of that is... And I don't really know what I'm talking about... But if you are lacking drive altogether it might be worth a medical check-up just to check that everything is okay. Whereas if you have drive just fine, but just don't feel inclined to do that with any particular person...

Well...

Then you probably don't need a medical check-up.

Do you know what about it makes you feel sick?

Have you thought about the possibility that you might be gay?

Or just the possibility that you might not have met the right person yet?

Just talking...

[dogtanian]

as for the general symptoms, i know for a fact i've been hiding many of these things from doctors all my adult life. i am pretty sure i have lied about certain aspects of my past, and lied somewhat at the time as well, in order to back up my bipolar dx. i feel as though i have twisted how i feel and have felt to fit that dx, rather than admitting that these feelings are ALWAYS there. i feel as though i've lied about aspects of my past to friends as well, even about petty things like what music i was into, and also about things that could have shaped my behaviour, my dx and my image amongst other people.

actually, nowadays, i'm pretty happy with my self, in terms of knowing what i like in life, having friends who like similar things, having a good music collection etc. but it's got to the stage where when i think about the past i can't remember what's the truth and what is my twisting/exaggeration/omission/outright lying. it's quite frightening really.

needless to say, i've never ever said this out loud to anyone, although it's something i think about a lot.

as for the sexual thing:

do you have sexual interest (in the sense of a physical drive) or not?

i get physical urges, yes, i do occasionally masturbate but not like i used to. these days i just start thinking about something else and the urges go away, usually, but they are still around.

Do you know what about it makes you feel sick?

nope.

Have you thought about the possibility that you might be gay?

the last time i was anything other than celibate i was gay. basically i do still find people attractive, but in the looking sense, not the doing sense. i think women tend to be more attractive anyway. i have slept with both genders, and hated it with both, although possibly more with men.

Or just the possibility that you might not have met the right person yet?

oh no, no way. this isn't a "the sex is crap" this is a "just thinking about having sex, even within a relationship, makes me throw up and cry hysterically"

> as for the general symptoms, i know for a fact i've been hiding many of these things from doctors all my adult life.

?
sorry... what kinds of things? do you mean things about how you are feeling? i think it is pretty natural to not tell them *everything*. i mean... there wouldn't be enough time in the day lol. disclosure has to be paced... also... if it isn't bothering you then you probably don't need to talk about it.

> i am pretty sure i have lied about certain aspects of my past, and lied somewhat at the time as well, in order to back up my bipolar dx. i feel as though i have twisted how i feel and have felt to fit that dx, rather than admitting that these feelings are ALWAYS there.

hmm. maybe... maybe the feelings were ALWAYS there... or maybe it just seems to you right now that those feelings were ALWAYS THERE. when you feel one way... you tend to remember past times when you felt the same way. find it hard to remember times when you felt differently. maybe you are going through a bit of a hard patch now?

re: trying to fit things to your dx... that is an easy thing to do. you start to see yourself through the lens of your dx and that dictates who you are. clinician's do that too. they are often quick to jump on things that confirm their dx. they are often quick to see us through the lens of our dx.

and so... i guess i'd be careful about finding still more dx's to see yourself through the lens of. and i guess i'd be careful about finding still more dx's for them to see you through the lens of.

have you been reading a lot about personality disorders?
did it get you thinking how much you fit the symptoms...
did it get you reinterpreting your life your problems your symptoms so as to cohere with dx of a personality disorder?

IMO people are individuals. IMO dx's are heuristics for mental health professionals. IMO most clinician's use them lazily so they can assume rather than assess. IMO the benefit to dx is an artifact of such things as managed health care where what treatment (therapy, medication etc) that you can obtain is dependent on your dx.

IMO dx does more harm than help.

IMO... think about who you want to be...
and think about what is holding you back from becoming the person you want to be.
those are the things to work on

throw up and cry hysterically...

how come?

(also i'll put a little caveat in there... if you do have episodes of mania you might not consider those problematic... until later. so sometimes family members and clinician's do need to independently assess whether there are symptoms that are causing problems for you living your life the way you would want to be living it once the state wears off...)

[dogtanian]

thanks SK, i think you have a point: i think maybe i've been hearing all this talk of PD and just going "oh my god, i do that, i feel that" etc.

the problem is i'm getting myself worked up about it. i'm probably just being daft, to be honest.

the sex thing, the crying and the feeling sick, i honestly don't know why, i think it's partly fear of contamination, partly and invasion thing. the tdoc reckons it's all related to the surgery, which kind of makes sense. but i don't know why my reaction is so violent.

i'm not sure what you're getting at in terms of the mania, i have had manic episodes, including some i've been hospitalised for, but i'm not quite sure how this relates?

hey. i don't think you are being daft. i think it is natural for people to try and understand themself by trying to relate to other people. relating to dx's is a way of relating to other people in the sense that... enough people would meet the criteria in order for it to count as a dx and all... so one thing it can help us to is to feel less alone. but there can (and indeed typically is) considerable variation in the symptoms that people meet. for some dx's there is more variation in the symptoms that people have within a dx criteria than there is in the symptoms that people have across different dx criteria. while people are working at it... psychiatric classification doesn't 'carve nature at its joints' the way that biological or even medical taxonomy does. to a very large extent... the current dx classification system is fairly arbitrary and fairly controversial and is fairly much... social convention (that enables people to get treatment etc and builds psychiatry and indeed psychology up as a 'real science' just like medicine - so to speak). IMO talking to people... other people who can relate to different aspects of what you are saying can be more helpful than identifying yourself with a group of people solely on the basis of dx.

invasive... yeah, that feeling is no fun. no fun at all :-(
i don't think anybody likes to feel invaded :-(
and contamination... nobody likes to feel contaminated either :-(
i think some people can have a fairly bad reaction to sex if they have had unplesant sexual encounters. ones that left them feeling invaded and contaminated, for example. and surgery... surgery (if experienced as invasive and / or painful) if linked to sex in some way... well that could make sex seem pretty bad too...

i think that if you have had mostly negative experiences around sex then it would be understandable that you aren't so keen on the idea. i guess... if it isn't a problem in your life then... it isn't a problem. if... later on... you meet someone and it does become a problem then it sounds like therapy might help with that. there are things you can do to try and counter-balance the negative associations with more positive associations. or that might happen in time anyway as you get some distance from the negative connotations.

i'm not really getting at anything in terms of mania. i was just talking a lot about how the only symptoms (or things) that are problematic are things you consider to be problematic... but there can be exceptions to that... i was trying to allow for the exceptions is all.

i mean... a person might think that it is not problematic at all if they really wanted to kill someone...
or a person might think that it is not problematic at all if they didn't want to leave the house 'cause the voices told them not to...
or a person might think that it is not problematic at all if they wanted to invest all their money in a poker game...
or a person might think that it is not problematic at all if they wanted to go out drinking all night every night...

but those things might well be problematic in the sense that their lives would be better off if those things were resolved. i didn't mean to assume at all that you did (or might have) issues like that... i just meant to qualify my statement about the only things that are problematic are the things that the person presenting for treatemtn considered problematic. there can be exceptions. that is all i meant to do there was to qualify my statement. in those cases sometimes family members or clinician's need to make the judgement that the person's life would be better off if those symptoms were attended to even if the person doen'st recognise those things as a problem...

though that is controversial... the degree of paternalism (clinician knows best) that is appropriate in patient / client relationships. i don't like paternalism in general, i just wanted to acknowledge that there could be some exceptions is all. didn't mean to imply anything about you in particulalr.

[dogtanian]

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special_k said:
hey. i don't think you are being daft. i think it is natural for people to try and understand themself by trying to relate to other people. relating to dx's is a way of relating to other people... the current dx classification system is fairly arbitrary and fairly controversial and is fairly much... social convention

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yeah, i think that's definitely true, and i realise these things are arbitrary, i guess i'm just looking for a way to explain the things that i see as happening that can't just be explained by mania/depression, although they worsen when i'm in those states, they're always somewhat problematic: in that they niggle at me and make me feel incomplete somehow.

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i don't think anybody likes to feel invaded :-(
and contamination... nobody likes to feel contaminated either :-(
i think some people can have a fairly bad reaction to sex if they have had unplesant sexual encounters. ones that left them feeling invaded and contaminated, for example. and surgery... surgery (if experienced as invasive and / or painful) if linked to sex in some way... well that could make sex seem pretty bad too...

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my tdoc thinks i hate invasion because i was in an operating theatre/incubator for a long time as a baby, and i hate people coming near me physically, she thinks because sub/un conciously i never know whether they're coming to hug me or inject me with something. it kind of makes sense. the problem is that ALL my sexual encounters (and when i was very ill with bpolar, there were a lot of them) have felt wrong, have made me feel bad, i've hated every single one of them. but i've never known why. i don't think i've ever had sex related surgery, and i don't believe i was ever sexually abused... when i was younger i'd drown it out by getting absolutely wasted every time sex was on the agenda so i wouldn't have to be conscious for it. it's only now i've realised that just because society expects us all to be partnered up doesn't mean i have to be, or that i have to have sex at all, that i've realised how much happier i am without it AND how dysfunctional my sex life has always been. i always knew i hated it but now i realise just how much, and looking back i can see what lengths i went to to blank it out.

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but those things might well be problematic in the sense that their lives would be better off if those things were resolved.

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i see what you mean. to be honest things don't seem so problematic when i'm manic but when i'm depressed i still see the problem side of things. but even when i'm well these issues are there and i would feel better if they were resolved somehow, even explanation would help.

[Rapunzel]

There is a lot involved in your story and why you feel, think, and act the way you do. A lot of it sounds like it adds up, such as we know that things like long hospitializations and surgeries as an infant do interfere with attachment. And insecure attachment is related to having difficulty with relationships and boundaries and all of that stuff. It might help to read about these topics and see what you find that you can draw from in understanding yourself, and figuring out how you might like to change.

I also feel that it is important to discuss things that concern you with your therapist. It sounds like you have a good therapist, who tries hard to help you, and hopefully is someone you could trust. Maybe learning to trust is one of the issues you need help with. Your therapist will either help you feel better about the things you are concerned with, in the sense of answering your concerns so that you know which things might not be applicable, and also help you to work on the things that do need to be addressed.

That said, I agree with a lot of what Special K has told you about the purpose of diagnosis. It is only useful insofar as it helps somehow. It is easy to identify with personality disorders because lots of people have those traits. It becomes a disorder when a trait or combination if traits is excessive and causes problems for you. There are some parallels between Borderline Personality Disorder and Bipolar, so you might also relate to symptoms because of that. There are people who have both though, so the short answer is to go back to telling you to discuss it with your therapist. You could even print this thread or part of it if that makes it easier.

hey.

> i guess i'm just looking for a way to explain the things that i see as happening that can't just be explained by mania/depression, although they worsen when i'm in those states, they're always somewhat problematic: in that they niggle at me and make me feel incomplete somehow.

i understand what you mean about wanting an explanation, a way to make sense of things. i guess i just think that dx's don't explain or make sense of anything. i mean... (hypothetical made up example)
Q 'why do i feel SO GOOD sometimes and do crazy stuff'
A 'because you have manic episodes'
how does saying 'you have manic episodes' EXPLAIN what is happening? having mania doesn't CAUSE the symptom, mania is just a label or an alternative description for the symptom.
Similarly:
Q 'why do i find it hard to feel close to people?'
A 'because you have borderline personality disorder'
but saying you have borderline personality disorder doesn't EXPLAIN why you have the symptom, the label borderline personality disorder is just a name that is given to the symptom (and other symptoms besides).

I'm just saying that i don't know that dx facilitates explanation or understanding...

> my tdoc thinks i hate invasion because i was in an operating theatre/incubator for a long time as a baby, and i hate people coming near me physically, she thinks because sub/un conciously i never know whether they're coming to hug me or inject me with something. it kind of makes sense.

sure. but maybe you would feel the same way even if you hadn't been in that incubator... or maybe you wouldn't. symptoms arise from such a complex arrangement of genes and genetic predisposition and environmental and social factors that it is likely that there are COMBINATIONS of things... so very many things that contribute that in a way searching for THE thing, THE cause is... kinda futile in a way. because it never is just any one thing. but yeah we need to make sense of stuff... i think sometimes it is about... finding the contributing factors that are in our power to change.

but in all this...

are you relatively happy with being socially aloof... or would you like to feel more connected to people? a lot of people want to feel more connected than they currently do. a lot of people. a lot of people with a lot of different dx's. and a lot of people (with a lot of different dx's) find that stuff like... fear that others will hurt them or leave them or not like them... holds them back from seeking and maintaining connections with others.

that could be something to work on if you would like to feel more connected to others. but people vary in the degree of intimacy they want with other people. and people can vary over time too. if you are happy then i would say there isn't a problem. but if the emptiness... is a kind of lonliness... and if you would like to feel closer to people than you do typically feel... well... in a way i think that this is something most people struggle with a bit. people without mental health disorders even. it is something that you could work on if you want.

> the problem is that ALL my sexual encounters (and when i was very ill with bpolar, there were a lot of them) have felt wrong, have made me feel bad, i've hated every single one of them.

maybe... you are a person who finds sex to be very intimate. something... that only would feel comfortable with someone who you really cared about and were close to. someone who you were in a long term relationship with. lots of people feel that way (guys too). i know the stereotype goes that guys don't feel that way though women tend to feel that way more but i've met exceptions on both sides. i talked to a guy a couple months back who felt used and dirty and really didn't enjoy his sexual encounters either.

maybe it would be different if you came to really care about someone and it was more an act of intimacy than casual sex (or comperably more casual sex) is. maybe... i would say that it would only be a problem if you met someone and decided you wanted to be with them long term and then you had trouble with that with them. you might find that if you met someone that there wouldn't be trouble with that with them.

[dogtanian]

thanks guys for your replies about explanations, that all does make a lot of sense to me, to be honest. i'm going to see my tdoc on wedn and i'll ask her about this, in an honest and open minded manner and just see what she thinks. i trust her enough to kind of go with what she says to some extent.

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maybe... you are a person who finds sex to be very intimate. something... that only would feel comfortable with someone who you really cared about and were close to. someone who you were in a long term relationship with.
maybe it would be different if you came to really care about someone and it was more an act of intimacy than casual sex (or comperably more casual sex) is. maybe... i would say that it would only be a problem if you met someone and decided you wanted to be with them long term and then you had trouble with that with them. you might find that if you met someone that there wouldn't be trouble with that with them.

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ah, that's something a lot of people have suggested but i know for a fact it's absolutely not that. the real problem i have is i hate sex, but i hate even more having to do it again. it's like, if i've slept with someone i can barely look them in the eye or speak to them, let alone sleep with them again. the first time i do it i tend to make sure i'm very very drunk, barely conscious, and if i somehow ended up going out with this person (which was never my intention) i'd try to be drunk every time, but you know, inevitably after a week or so the person will say they'd like to try it not unconscious, and that's when the problem starts. i CAN'T do it. that's when i start crying and feeling sick and throwing up at the very thought. there have been people i've been with who i've really quite liked as people but in a physical sense they repulse me. all humans do. my housemates, my family, my friends, i can't even think about any of them without clothes or i start getting the jitters. it's why i'm going on holiday alone - i don't want to be around my parents or brothers in their swimming gear. i want to be alone where i can totally regulate how much exposure i have and can use my little mantras to make myself feel ok.

[confused43]

i had a psychiatrist try to convince me that borderline personlaity and bipolar go hand and hand. i dont think i believe him . he had research on it but it wasn't very reliabe.

[dogtanian]

i'm seeing my tdoc today, and will discuss this with her. i'm inclined to think i'm barking up the wrong tree, but we shall see. thanks to you all for your advice

[dogtanian]

i had a good chat with my tdoc and she definitely didn't dismiss me as barking up the wrong tree. she was really helpful, actually. i said it felt like lying that i'd not told doctors many of these feelings were constants, and she said that it only seemed like lying to me and that i was giving it a concrete name when really it was something less definable. i also said that it's only now, as i'm beginning to understand myself more, that i'm able to admit to these things.

i always totally dismissed the idea that major surgery could have any effect on my later life, but now, talking to her has made me realise how huge an effect it has had, and how that pervades everything i think, feel and do. it's only looking at it like this that i begin to understand feelings i've always had but have denied because i knew that people would find them bizarre. things i've always known i'm supposed to feel and haven't felt, and that i've denied lack of to everyone, including myself. things that make me squirm that i've never admitted to because i thought i was being pathetic. it's only now i can see my life in a bit more perspective that i realise just how dysfunctional my life in terms of thoughts and feelings has been so far, and how little of it is explained by my being bipolar. merely because these things are ALWAYS there, although exacerbated by episodes, they never really go away. also she reminded me that denying these things, including to myself, is not necessarily lying, but you know, to me it feels like lying.

she didn't say yay or nay but she did ask what a diagnosis would do, for me, and i said "you know, it would be helpful if all these things that i feel and think, that are all over the shop, could be placed in a little basket, and i could say: those are the things about me that are odd, they are in that basket, they are contained in it, and they are there for x reason, whereas at the moment it feels like things are wrong/skewed in so many of my thoughts and feelings that i have no grasp of them"

i'm seeing her in 2 weeks and we'll talk further. i'm not going to mention anything to the pdoc yet, because this is a huge thing for me, it's stuff i've never admitted to anyone and that i've always thought people will think i'm making it up, or that they'll think i'm being ridiculous. but she didn't dismiss it, and she said that in many ways it does make sense. i think when we talk again we can make things more clear.,