What, I'm borderline?

That was my reaction today after I found out that I am also borderline, amongst other things. I didn't even find out from my therapist, she sent it in a report, which then that person told me.
I was told in the very beginning that I was by this pdoc I was seeing, but I didn't trust her and didn't like her very much. But I guess my T must agree.
I guess I have BPD with schizotypal PD features. Which is something I already knew. I knew that I had features of BPD but didn't know that I actually had it.
Of course my T did talk to me last time about how I am a little manipulative, without realizing it, by the way that I talk. I guess I say a little at a time and wait for the other person to keep on me. she says this is manipulative. Does anyone else have this probem?
Well sorry for blabbing on and on but I just wanted to vent or somthing.

Should I talk to my T about this?

Anything you may say I'm sure will be helpful.
Jennifer

Hmmm I might have you confused with someone else, but aren't you DID? Sorry if I've erred... does the person testing or DXing you know you are DID? Of course you would come across with these other aspects if you were DID... but if they are saying the voices aren't parts of your personality, but instead what you are saying here.. hmmmmm I can see where that would be unsettling.

No you are not confusing me with someone else. My T does believe I have DID but I'm guessing she must also think that I have BPD also, I don't know. I don't think that she denies that I have DID at all. And I trust her so I dont' know. I'm guessing she must have went off some testing that was done in December. Which they didn't clearly identify me as having DID because they didn't have enough time with me. But my T has diagnosed me with it and so has another. But what I've read it's not uncommon for people with DID to also have BPD. So I don't know. Thanks fo responding!

Jennifer

> Of course my T did talk to me last time about how I am a little manipulative, without realizing it, by the way that I talk. I guess I say a little at a time and wait for the other person to keep on me. she says this is manipulative.

Hmm. That is about my #1 bugbear.
When people call me 'manipulative' I always ask them 'do you mean to say that you feel manipulated?'
Linehan talks about this. Sounds like it is about her #1 bugbear too.
She says that people with BPD need to learn to be MORE manipulative, not less.
It is about manipulating others so that you get your needs met... It is about learning skills so as to better facilitate that.
Hang in there.

That's really quite an interesting statement you attribute to Linehan. Do you know where you read that?

I ask, because, being manipulative (or thinking we are good at it) is a typical trait of BPD, so I cannot imagine her promoting that behaviour. Of course, there are many different ways to manipuate - passive-agressive techniques; guilt, fear, etc. (and probably some that we use that are not yet documented - we are, after all, quite talented in this area).

I think what Dr. Linehan may have been referring to was not so much manipulation, but referring to persuasion. Two VERY different things.

Manipulation implies (and is defined as): (esp. unfair) use of influence (what we, as borderlines, are good at), whereas persuasion implies (and is defined as): cause to convince through cognition ( being defined as: Action or faulty of knowing, perceiving, conceiving (logic, if you will), as opposed to emotion and volition) (which we are not good at). Simply stated, our emotional perceptions (as a BP) almost entirely rules over logical perceptions (we can actually be so logical in our thinking as to become illogical about it, too).

I have had a very difficult time distinguishing the two - they have meant the same thing to me (I think the blurr between the two definitions came about by how often the terms were "abused," especially in business). However, when one's behaviour suggests a sense of deviousness - like manipulating a situation so that we can feel safe, then that is not honest (something we really need to be in order to recover). Yet, when we can persuade someone of our need to be able to control our situation because of our particular issues, then there is honesty involved and, therefore, much more validity for both you and who or what situation you are trying to control. Persuasion without manipulation is guilt-free. Don't know about you, but I am constantly wracked with guilt (mostly because deep down inside and usually subconsciously, I know I am not being honest about how I am going about getting what I need in order to feel secure in my world).

So, I just cannot see Linehan promoting "manipuation." If she was, I would not have to (indeed no borderline) would have to use therapy. If we were on the up and up, consiously and subconsiously (which is what we are trying to achieve with therapy), we would not have the difficulties we have.

Well, this is only my opinion from DBT. Who knows, maybe I shouldn't throw away my manipulative skills so fast; maybe I got the whole concept backwards again (another typical BPD trait for me).

Altered State

Jenn, first I want you to know that I only read your initial comment. As one who suffers from BPD, don't let it define you, you are only suffering from this like you would the flu or a common cold.

You, I assume, knew it all along. DON'T let this consume you; it can be treated. I'm the biggest liar on the planet. I alter things so that 'I' don't feel worse. I'm trying to change! So can you!

You are here because you want to quit those self destructive habits, right? That is why I'm here. I eitehr need to learn what a ruler is all about or I need to fix it on my own.

Nice insights regarding manipulation. I don't like to think of myself as manipulative, and never really did think that I was. I don't manipulate people intentionally, anyway. But my husband thinks that I manipulate, and my T has pointed out how I manipulate. It really isn't something that I try to do, and I hate it that people see that in me, because I don't want it to be there. Maybe the key is to have more awareness and be more intentional, knowing what it is that we need or want, and knowing the impact that we have on other people. Then maybe we could plan a way to get our needs met without making someone feel used and taken advantage of.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

AS

Sorry, I just saw your post. Also sorry but I don't have my copy of http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...893218-2730266 to hand to find the page reference...

I will put in a word for that book. I found it to be lifechanging. Literally. I was struggling with my dx of BPD and was struggling with how I could possibly live with myself and expect others to tolerate my presence when theorists viewed me as an attention seeking manipulative liar. Then I discovered Linehan. I'd thoroughly reccomend the book to anyone.

She talks about how therapists have this unfortunate tendancy to blame the victim. Basically, therapist feels inadequate so judges the client to be 'demanding'. Patient needs more attention than therapist can provide and therapist judges client to be 'attention seeking'. Therapist feels manipulated so judges the client to be 'manipulative'. And so it goes on...

She says that therapists and clients both need to learn to lift the judgement.

She does indeed say that people with borderline personality aren't manipulative in the traditional sense. Then she goes on to reclaim the word. Like how black people reclaimed 'n*gger' she reclaims 'manipulative' and says the trouble with people with BPD is that they aren't manipulative enough.

I mean psychologically healthy people have figured out how to manipulate others into meeting their needs (or most of them) in a way that everyone ends up feeling fairly happy and good about themselves. People with BPD, on the other hand, have trouble manipulating others into meeting their needs (or most of them) in a way that everyone ends up feeling fairly happy and good about themselves. Thats why she advocates social skills training, so we can get better at manipulating others ;-)

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I was struggling with my dx of BPD and was struggling with how I could possibly live with myself and expect others to tolerate my presence when theorists viewed me as an attention seeking manipulative liar. Then I discovered Linehan. I'd thoroughly reccomend the book to anyone.

She talks about how therapists have this unfortunate tendancy to blame the victim. Basically, therapist feels inadequate so judges the client to be 'demanding'. Patient needs more attention than therapist can provide and therapist judges client to be 'attention seeking'. Therapist feels manipulated so judges the client to be 'manipulative'. And so it goes on...

She says that therapists and clients both need to learn to lift the judgement.

She does indeed say that people with borderline personality aren't manipulative in the traditional sense. Then she goes on to reclaim the word. Like how black people reclaimed 'n*gger' she reclaims 'manipulative' and says the trouble with people with BPD is that they aren't manipulative enough.

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Went to the site you have posted. (Yeeesh, I keep forgetting just how complicated this disorder is. Man, it's a wonder we have any sanity in us at all with all we get to deal with).

Though I haven't read any of Linehan's books, I do remember reading about how we are thought of amongst those in the mental health profession and how the term "manipuation" is always used. (Think I just got myself twisted about the term "manipulative" - must be a trigger, eh?)

I don't know about you, but I am very intense in my sessions, and I do demand alot from them, both intellectually and emotionally. If I am burnt out after a session, I can only imagine what they must feel like after 2 or 3 individual sessions or after a 2 hour session with a dozen of "me's"(sp?), day after day. Hell, I get so sick of trying to rationalize with myself, I can't imagine the constant pounding it takes on their sanity to help ones like me rationalize with myself properly and consistently . And this is their profession - putting their own sanity on the line?

I purposefully read a few essays/reviews about DBT on this very topic because I was totally outrageous in group sessions, yet totally focused and demanded very deep intellectual discussions with my one-on-one therapist. I truly put them through the paces, as I feel I do with all my personal relationships. If I couldn't figure out how to change this aspect, I wouldn't be able to return to therapy, both because of my behaviour (in group) and my own guilt and shame, thus my search to see what the therapists were "really" saying about treatment of borderlines.

I guess I was hoping to gain more sympathy for them (it's hard for me to have sympathy for a therapist (who chooses that profession) sometimes, mostly because it is hard for me to believe that they actually believe my pain is as deep as it is and that I am truly hurting - about everything, all the time).

Anyway, I recognize clearly, the manipulative aspects of my personality, I guess I don't like that the idea of reclaiming that specific word with it's clearly negative connotations, such as the n word (which I also find disheartening).

You know, I find that quite a few people these days, manipulate without considering the "feelings" of others (I would like to say most , but I'm probably being overly paranoid and dramatic here). It just seems that everyone, these days, are more individually minded and thus, more self-centered and selfish as a result (especially the techno generation?).

It's actually interesting that so many therapists would allow themselves to "feel" so manipulated when they are the ones in total control. Can we take heart in the fact that we have the best of the therapists helping us, since it takes so much will and strength to treat us?

We must be remarkably powerful ourselves, too...

Alexandra K,
I'm a new member who wanted to get a better understanding of BPD. My younger sister Susan had BPD.
She died September 7th of a drug overdose. She had been
medicating herself since she was a teen with legal and illegal drugs and alcohol. (So did I. I struggle with alcoholism and depression. I am in AA.) Susan became more abusive and manipulative as the years went by. She
was particularly horrible to my parents and I hated to see them being beaten up by her daily phone calls and in person tirades about how what awful parents they were
and how she hated them. Of course it didn't stop her from
manipulating them into buying her new teeth at 24K, promising to pay them monthly but never making one payment saying they had done other things for me and my brother and how dare they make her pay. Susan and I were really close growing up. I used to lay in bed and hold her hand until she fell asleep because she was scared. I miss the little sister who loved every living thing and used to kiss frogs! We used to have so much fun together...we'd laugh until we hurt. I got occasional glimpses of the old Susan this past few years but the intentional cruelty to me,
her daughter, husband, my brother and my parents was so
pervasive, it's what I'm left with.
So, I came to this website to seek comfort and some better
understanding of the BPD thinking. I just wanted to tell you how much I respect what you have had to share in your emails to various posting. It's obvious that not all BPD's are like my sister. It's nice to see there are people like you who want to
be aware of how BPD affects their behaviors and choices and are willing to do the hard work it takes to take control
of BPD, instead of it taking control of you. I admire the intensity of your self examination that all of us could benefit
from because all human beings have faults that cause problems in our lives. Kudos to you! How I wish Susan
would have been willing to be that honest with herself and willing to do the hard work you're doing. For some reason,
it makes me feel better to know others with BPD are battling successfully.

Hey there. I'm sorry I didn't respond to your post sooner, but I've been away for a week or so.

I'm sorry to hear about your younger sister. That must have been a really hard situation for your family and for you and for your younger sister as well. I guess I think that... I really think that the word 'manipulative' isn't helping much. There are specific things that your younger sister did that you disaproved of... Verbally abusing others is unacceptable behaviour, for example. Maybe... She never really learned how to appropriately express anger and frustration?

It is hard to gain insight into 'BPD thinking' because people with BPD are a diverse group of people. I once calculated that there were... 256 different ways to meet the dx criteria for BPD. Oftentimes with dx there is more variability between people with the same dx than there is between people of different dx's etc. But that being said one thing that does seem to crop up fairly consistently in the case of BPD is PAIN and SUFFERING. That is turned inwards (self destructive acts) and outwards (other destructive acts incl. verbal abuse towards others etc).

People often find it really hard to understand emotional (aka 'borderline') logic... To understand what is going on in the persons mind. I don't know if you have ever gotten into an intensely distressing emotional state and then done things that you later regret? Sometimes life can be a little like that. Drugs help dull and numb the intense emotions but drugs have their own consequences (where all your money goes on them, when the drugs wear off and you would give anything for that next hit, where you have to live through the withdrawal etc).

It can be really hard to love someone who is in such great pain. Especially when they seem to be doing everything they can to push others away by their lashing out etc. Have you ever seen an animal in pain? If you shock a monkey it will turn and bite the monkey next to it. Animals (and people) in pain do have a greater tendency to lash out in sheer frustration. But how to make it better? It can be so damned hard...

I've been told that I was misdiagnosed (in hindsight). I refuse to believe that because I would like to offer hope to others. I prefer to describe myself as someone who met criteria at age 18 and no longer met criteria at age 26. Never mind the 'it will mellow in your fourties' ********. I'm not magically all better, not by a long shot. But the episodes of intense pain and self and other destructive acts are fewer and further between. I was very lucky indeed to get into therapy with a therapist I liked very much who had a theory (DBT) that I respected very much.

There are others in the world who weren't so lucky.

And I... Could well have been them.

I just heard yesterday that one of my friends (who suffered from depression) killed himself. Death... The absence of pain and suffering and fear and violence and desperate longing. Not to glorify it (death will come soon enough) but... The absence of those things... I hope they found peace.

I hope all of us do.