What kind of help do you feel you need that you’re not getting?

There’s DBT for BPD that lots of people have found helpful but it didn’t help me and I haven’t found anything else much to help my PDNOS – mostly OCPD and narcissistic (though not exactly NPD) traits.

What I feel like I need, and which I get somewhat here on PC, is a “social play pen” where I can try saying things I might not anywhere else and find out how other people respond when I do.

How do you feel about the treatment, if any, that you’re getting for your PD?

I have OCPD. It is hard. I am a perfectionist. I have a very specific way of doing things. I am in therapy, and just try to bite my tongue, when dealing with others. I can be very critical and am sorry for that.

I highly recommend two things to you for BPD. - 1: exercising and 2: following spiritual teachings. Exercise has long term effects on both mind and body, and spiritual teachings can offer you a fresh perspective on life that you just didn't have before. It can really open your eyes. I follow Eckhart Tolle.

You might try the chatrooms here, but, to be honest, I'm skeptical about the potential effectiveness of any kind of online interactions. I only do this because I don't get any kind of interaction in real life. Why not try meetup.com or other "hang out" sites (or simply coffee shops) to meet people and practice ? With strangers, the stakes are low.

I underwent regular (CBT ?) talk therapy for years, with no significant improvement. Tried all kinds of meds (SSRIs, benzos, mood stabs, etc) with no improvement whatsoever.

Like I said, exercise and spiritual teachings

P.S. I suffer from BPD, MDD, GAD, and binge eating

I don't think CBT is regular talk therapy. It's hard.

Is there anything that anybody can think of that they think might help with their PD issues that they can't get on their own and which is not available? For me, with more than 50 years off and on in therapy, I certainly haven't gotten the help I needed to live a full and normal life. Maybe that never was a possibility for me, and maybe I need to find satisfaction in the life I have. But the message I got years ago was that if you were willing to face your issues you could overcome them. I have been willing -- maybe that was a bogus idea to begin with. But it seems to me that lots of folks with PD's are struggling, not getting a lot of "help" that really helps, and so I was wondering what ideas anybody might have of something they think they need that (perhaps) no therapist ever thought of. Just idle curiosity at the moment.

I have ASPD and used to have many NPD traits. I've never received any real treatment as most therapists are too busy insisting that I don't "really" have ASPD and that I'm just a bad case of PTSD. That attitude is utter lunacy, but I've given up trying to reason with any kind of "professional" who's far more concerned about preserving their worldview than accepting that not everyone is going to fit their model of "someone who needs therapy".

Lately I demanded to get psychological testing done just to prove a point, I asked specifically to be tested for PTSD. Those tests all came up negative. My point is this: traumatic events do not define who you are and "trauma" is never and I do mean never the sole reason someone develops a personality disorder, and I am sick of therapists focusing so much on someone's alleged crappy childhood rather than helping them deal with their present problems.

I would love to get some practical advice on how to stop getting into the same kinds of trouble over and over again to name one example of a recurrent problem I have associated with my ASPD. But I have asked for practical advice, solutions, etc to this problem among others and I have received less than nothing and I was told that I needed to focus on my terrible childhood which is supposedly the root source of all my "evil". I am not joking, this is the message I have been given both directly and otherwise anytime I've acknowledged that hey, maybe I can use an outside opinion to my advantage!

People say ASPD and NPD sufferers don't ask for help, and well, I can certainly see why. These so called "professionals" are a joke.

Any and all progress I've made in improving myself and my life, I've done it all on my own. I had no other choice. Having outside perspectives would be amazing sometimes, but I've had to accept that in all likelihood I will never get that.

The most useful advice I've gotten is from other people with PD's.

I have plenty of ideas for what would be helpful for PD sufferers, but that would turn into an even longer post so I won't get on that soapbox today.


ETA: All the mental health professionals I've seen seem to be far more concerned with what label my problems fall under than actually looking at my problems and helping me solve them. For an analogy of this phenomenon think of it this way: it would be like United States leaders debating endlessly on whether or not hurricane Matthew is a "real" hurricane, and instead insisting it must be a tropical storm or a tropical depression or well they shouldn't call it Matthew that's such a bad name blah blah blah instead of focusing on relief efforts to the people who have suffered, are suffering, and will suffer because of the storm.

I had a PD NOS and I don't anymore so it is possible for it to be treated.

Maybe we could start something here. As I said, I know that I want honest social feedback sometimes. Could you give an example of something you would like an outside opinion about?

I named an example in the part of my post that you quoted. I would like some outside opinions on my tendency to end up in the same kinds of trouble over and over again. A problem for people with ASPD is an inability to learn from past mistakes and I have certainly suffered a lot of difficulty in my life because of this issue and I would like some ways to solve the problem. I've tried a few things on my own with very minimal results at best.

Hmm. . . kind of the opposite of OCPD. I can kind of "turn off" my get-in-trouble impulses, which isn't such a great thing either but might provide an outside perspective. Are you comfortable giving an example of the kind of trouble you get yourself into? A made-up one, something you can see yourself doing but never have, might work.

That's a complicated topic and I think I should start my own thread about the issue elsewhere as that would completely hijack this thread. But having said that, one thing that seems to happen in threads I post on is that I unintentionally do tend to get people off topic. Like I said, I don't do it on purpose... but the results of this can be chaotic and end in arguments, locked threads, and certain people never wanting to speak to me again.

OK, I'll respond to something I wanted to say about this part of your post:

A person at any one time can only work with the responses and abilities they have. "Acceptance and Change" is a maxim, I think, in DBT -- for the client. I'd turn that around for the therapist -- try accepting me as a person, as I am in the moment, first. That's what I have not gotten from therapists, for whatever reason.

Just looking at this, some might say that my basic problem is worrying too much about being socially acceptable and not tolerating feeling judged by a therapist. But that's who I am and the responses I have at the moment -- still, after many years of therapy. (ETA: including therapy for trauma, which pretty well has been successful, but PD issues remain, whether from being ingrained for so long or what IDK. There they are, though.)

Would not be a problem in a self-help group of people who have PD's or PD-like traits. Would not want a "therapist" in there judging me and others, though. There might be other kinds of problems that would have to be worked out, or not, but not the judging/labeling one.

What I hate about therapy (and many other things) is the inevitable imbalance of power. The therapist and the client are never equals. The therapist is automatically seen as having more knowledge and for all intents and purposes having the final say in what's "right".

(I'm not saying there aren't good therapists out there who are an exception to this rule, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule so to speak.)

I have never found therapy beneficial because I am not interested in debating psychology 101 with therapists over and over with them insisting they must be correct just because of a title and nothing more. It doesn't matter that I know more psychology than any professional I've ever seen. They are the only credible source for answers because they have the title of professional.

Of course, this is nonsense. But what can be done about it? Not much, I have no power or influence over that system. I'm non compliant if I tell them they're wrong too often.

I think it's far better to just talk among each other. We are all people with PD's, so nobody has absolute authority over anyone else. I like that idea far better.

I have told my therapist that I disagree with her. It might be a good exercise for you?

I am aggressive /assertive (self-diagnosed) and I have tried to act more assertive without losing my temper, arguing too strongly, etc.

Maybe you can practice your disagreement or arguing skills. I know that can be type of empathy, but it might be helpful.

I definitely have no problem telling therapists that I don't agree with them. It just never seems to get me anywhere or really solve any problems. I make a point to keep my temper under control with these people and it still doesn't seem to make any sort of difference.

I've had to learn how to stop being so socially aggressive and I'm still learning how to be assertive without scaring the hell out of people or harming them when it's not necessary.

I'm not capable of emotional empathy but I have a healthy dose of cognitive empathy. Hmm, I'll think about this more.

I could tell my last T that I disagreed with her but it didn't seem to get me anywhere either.

What I could not tell her was that I was not feeling understood -- that seemed like an accusation -- or that I was feeling angry or enraged -- they were still somewhat dissociated. Instead, I acted on my frustration at not feeling understood, and kept trying different ways to explain things so that she COULD understand. And then exploded in rage several times, the last one when I told her that my "Antisocial" and "Female Snotty" parts were in the room -- I could have "turned them off" and been socially polite but that isn't/wasn't the point of my coming to therapy and paying her a bunch of money. I did have the DDNOS and PDNOS diagnoses which she had assessed and I actually felt they fit, so we didn't have any disagreement there.

So I can definitely be aggressive but also shut-down goody-two-shoes compliant. Not really assertive on a personal, emotional level (can be assertive in business) I guess because I was fragmented and not whole, makes it hard to stand up for oneself when one doesn't know fully who/what that is and can collapse in pieces.

HOWEVER -- I came home, worked it out with myself, and I did stand up for my "Female Snotty" part the next session after the last time my T shamed me/her for it. That has probably started a healing process that I may be in now. But I'm not going to credit my T for that! Nor do I think she would either, not that that matters a lot.

Some of her lack of understanding may have been that we are temperamentally different. I like the Myers-Briggs model, others may prefer something else. But in that model I am oriented toward Thinking more than Feeling, and I strongly believe that most therapists are Feeling types and that the profession as a whole is oriented that way culturally. Very tough when you just don't fit in with that, has nothing to do with PD's though the therapist might think so.

Then of course there were my T's own issues that she may not have known about until I triggered them, but still . . .

A question for here_today along with anyone else who may happen upon this thread that feels like participating is this:

Why do you want to be understood?

I made the most progress when I wasn't in any form of therapy at all. Therapy seems to really just enable me at the end of the day, as therapists I've seen have all been preoccupied with putting me into a box which of course I do not take kindly to. Diagnosing people is an industry, it's all about the money yet again so therapists won't bother too much with personality disorders, they'll stick to what looks valid on an insurance claim, schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, etc.

What's your Myers-Briggs personality type, here_today? I'm an INTJ. Most therapists seem to be emotion-oriented which works for many people, but for those of us who aren't emotion-oriented? Oh well!

Well, darn. I'm an INTJ, too. . Most uncommon type for women, I think.

Why do I want to be understood? A very good question. How do you feel about that? Do you want to be understood or is it irrelevant to you?

Some of it may be that I felt excluded, possibly some because my temperament was so different from the other women in my family of origin, and I loved them and wanted to "belong". Even though belonging isn't high on the priorities for an INTJ it was/is still there.

Another is probably a need for "mirroring", an early need in the development of a (healthy) sense of self that I'm still struggling with. Why still struggling? I'll think about that one some, too. Not really sure.

It's interesting, I think, that despite the same unusual Myers-Briggs type that you and I developed such different PD characteristics. Any thoughts about that?

You're correct about INTJ women, we're a very rare breed.

All I want as far as understanding goes is that I am a human being just like everybody else. That is the only understanding I could ever possibly want.

I have the same basic needs, desires, pleasures, pains, fears, etc of any human being. I'm not somehow "other" because of any label that may apply to me. The fact is that I see myself as having just as many commonalities with other human beings as I do differences. That's how I see not just myself but everyone.

I despise the "us and them" mentality and I hate that it's human nature to compare and categorize all the time. We all do it to each other and it has no positive benefit to society at large.

I've lived my entire life being excluded and not being seen as an equal(I've lived a rough life, trust me when I say this all had very ugly results). I don't want belonging for emotional reasons, I want belonging for the principle of it. I want that again not just for me, but for everyone.

I was wondering if you had some sort of problem related to mirroring in the developmental sense of the word because some of the things you post and how you post them seem to allude to those sorts of issues.

I don't mean any insult here, but I think part of it is a generation gap, in other words I see it as partly a societal issue in some respects. I'm about to turn 30, and I know that you're... well, significantly older than 30! I don't mean to play into stereotypes here but hell, stereotypes exist for a reason... back when you were growing up, OCPD traits and the other "inverted" PD traits were encouraged in a lot of respects in the female population especially. People my age and younger? We're all called "generation me" for a reason, we are force fed messages every day that encourage more blatant forms of narcissism.

Another part of it is simple, we are two different people. It's really that simple.

It would be very hard for me to feel insulted with anything you wrote ^ when I asked for your thoughts and you gave them. Thank you very much for your reply! Maybe not the norm for most people, I know. And especially not now (again) in this era of political/social correctness.

Not that you asked, and maybe it’s getting a little off-topic, but I personally would feel much worse if you had ignored my request. Guess that may be personal and something of an issue for me, possibly related to wanting understanding, and true for some and not true for others.

Any other thoughts or feelings which anybody would like to add?

I totally understand what it's like to be lumped into a category. Instead of even attempting to offer me practical solutions, all of my therapists have dropped me as a patient as they consider me untreatable. Once they've made up their minds that's it, it's law. And all the ones after simply, follow suit.

@here_today

You're welcome. Offline I have a pretty heavy (and accurate) reputation for not being politically or socially correct.

I think you do want to be understood, I can see that desire in your posts much of the time. That is not a crime, and I dislike how some people and institutions treat basic human needs as if they're criminal acts.

What I wonder about when it comes to personality disorders are things you won't find in professional textbooks or what have you.

Something similar has happened with me. Except with me they refuse to call a spade a spade and simply argue with me about labels instead of trying to help me.

I don't see how therapists can justify this kind of behavior. Not offering you assistance when you could really use some practical solutions isn't very pro social of them.

It seems professionals have lost sight of what their job is. Their job is to help people. Not to stroke their egos and feed their greed doing it.

In my case they've offered very little effort on my behalf. It seems it was easier to put me out in the cold. They must have hoped that I'd become the legal systems problem.

This is sadly very typical. They try to sluff you off to another system just so they can say "oh yes, we've handled it." The entire system of systems is so corrupt I can't think about it for long without seeing red.