need a little outside perspective: having all your difficulties blamed on one 'event'

have put up the trigger icon, because i'm gonna mention ab*se stuff. (edit: oh look! this has turned into another essay. no need to read or respond, i think it's just a ramble with no point. dont know what im looking for, and dont need any responses. just rambling because i'm tired).

i've been seeing pdoc for 4 years now. 2 years ago i mentioned some physical stuff that had happened, but really played it down. kind of made out that it was a one-off thing. ok.

last year i admitted maybe it was a bit more than one-off thing. even went into details a bit. i am good at minimising what had happened, but i had to admit that some of that stuff would even meet my stringent criteria for what counts as 'trauma'. pdoc was... i don't know. he validated a lot of it, but the stuff that was a bit more extreme he didn't even respond to. it was like i said something, there was a pause, and then he switched the subject. i dont know if he didnt know what to say, didnt think it was appropriate to go into at the point in time, or if he didn't believe me. maybe he didn't hear me, or heard me but it didn't register. i had mentioned this stuff to my old-T around that time also, and he made it very clear that he didn't believe me (it was around this time that i started to decide he was an arsehole anyway, so i didnt think too much of it). but maybe pdoc also didnt believe me, because maybe it is a difficult thing to believe. i dont know.

this year i finally told pdoc about the csa. in one way it has been good that i have told him, but in another i am kind of... angry at him also? he has been so supportive and brilliant about it, and i could not possibly ask for more. but he also thinks that me being significantly better over the past few months is directly related to telling him about the csa. kind of like, the csa was the root of all of my problems.

i know that some people think like that, but imo, the physical stuff was a lot worse. the physical stuff was all bad, whereas the csa was at least partly good. and i never got (physically) hurt during the csa.

we haven't done any work on the csa since i told him. all he knows are the very spartan details he gleaned from me in that one session. it is ok that we haven't re-visited it - i have other things to focus on right now. but i am kind of angry at him that he keeps saying that i'm better now because i told him.

i think a part of that is because it almost minimises everything else that i am doing? yes, telling him was HUGE for me. it's been a steep learning to curve to accept that he wasn't going to reject me as a result . but i am also doing really quality work with Austin-T re: uni stuff, and the meds i'm are finally working like proper psych meds should. it makes me feel angry at myself because it's almost like... maybe i would never have even been depressed if i had just told someone this stuff years and years ago when i first started getting down. makes me feel like it's my fault for not speaking up earlier, if the 'cure' was just so simple. also makes me think i shouldn't be seeing a pdoc anymore, because if my depression is only related to past experiences, then what am i doing taking meds for it.

i dont know. i know i want to talk to pdoc about this when i see him on friday, but i'm a bit all over the place about it. i know i feel angry at him because of what he said, but it feels like the anger is disproportionate to the event, so i'm trying to get my head around what is triggering the rest also. it occurs to me that he is still probably trying to validate my telling him, still letting me know he is proud of me and ok with it and that only good things will come of it. but maybe i am angry that this didnt happen when i told him about the physical stuff. i dont like him for thinking csa is somehow 'bigger' than physical stuff. he's a poo head and i dont like him anymore.

((((((((((((((deli))))))))))))))

Well, first of all, it's probably a combination of ALL of the work that you are doing with p-doc and Austin-T that is helping you feel better. I mean, you are working really hard.

I will say, in my experience, to my SHOCK, talking about the CSA really is what started pushing me towards feeling better. It's so crazy - I mean, I was raped when I was 19 and we talked a TON about that, I grew up in a very physically abusive, alcoholic home and we've talked about that...but it wasn't until we started dealing with the CSA that I feel like some kind of darkness has been purged from my soul. I mean, I FEEL the difference.

I spent my WHOLE LIFE thinking the physical abuse was the main problem. And I do think there is a lot to deal with there. But it almost seems like on some level, the CSA was bigger - at least in how it affected me.

The thing is, YOU know yourself. What p-doc says is his opinion - and he probably does want you to know that sharing what happened was a big deal and that he is proud of you.

Oh- another thought (I am all drugged for a hurt back so forgive me for being confused and rambly) - looking back, I wonder if I was focusing so much on the physical abuse stuff because it's easier to think about/deal with than then CSA?? I mean, I walked right into T's office when I started therapy and told him right away about the physical abuse...and only a few months later we talked about the rape...but it took almost 2 years to even begin to admit to the CSA. Hmmm.

Don't know if there is anything helpful here, but those are my scattered thoughts!

Childhood abuse is such a major violation of innocence and huge betrayal of trust, that it would stand to reason it is the deepest wound, no matter what kind of abuse it was. I think it is a valid point deli, for you to be able to decide what was worse, and not p-doc. Only you know what each type made you feel.

I am on the same page as treehouse. The sa was worse for me. The physical pain I could understand.

Anger = beatings.

What I couldn't for the life of me figure out, was the psychic pain.

Blank = sexual abuse. WTF???

Why would someone abuse my soul?

Talk to p-doc. Tell him how you feel. Sometimes we have to spell things out slowly for these book smart intellectuals, lolol.

Yes. TOTALLY.

Deli, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you experienced physical abuse separately from childhood events? (You had physical abuse events as an adult?) Maybe I am not sure what CSA stands for. Sorry to spell it out, but is CSA=childhood sexual abuse? If so, I'm confused by separating physical from that. Why don't you think CSA is physical? You say your pdoc thinks CSA was bigger than physical, but CSA does include physical!!! Sorry, I'm very confused.... I'm not doubting what you say, just trying to understand.

Why was it your fault? How were you to know what would be helpful? You're not a psychologist. Now you are learning more, since you have been in therapy for a while. You are learning what leads to healing. Don't blame yourself for not knowing that back then, deli. Also, I don't understand why you think that past experiences can't lead to depression? Many people are depressed in part because of past life events. It is one of the most common risk factors for depression. That is a big reason why psychotherapy can help with depression. Life events (stressors) can affect our brain chemistry and that is why drugs can sometimes help. It is wonderful that you are finding a combination of meds and therapy that is now helping you beat your depression. Deli, don't beat yourself up that you didn't discover all of this sooner. It is not like there is a manual to follow that gives the step by step instructions that will help every single person with depression. We are all different, and it can take time to find the key. I was very very depressed when I went to see my first T (and I knew nothing of therapy or meds). I had heard of anti-depressants before, so I mentioned ADs to her one time, to see if she thought they might be helpful and she got so hostile to me and said she would not do therapy with me if I took ADs. I was so cowed by that, I never mentioned that again. I didn't want her to drop me. When I learned more, after I had left her, I realized her reaction was all wrong. I was angry at myself for not standing up for myself and calling her on her judgmental attitude. (I am taking some meds right now and they have been so helpful to me.) But how could I have known that at the time? Why be angry at myself for her problem? I don't know why we are always so quick to blame ourselves. Deli, you are not at fault for not knowing years ago what could help you.

Deli, I know this stuff is really hard for you. I think the pain you're in now and in general like with this stuff is getting to you and distorting some things.

For pdoc you cast it, as above, in terms of "all." I don't think anyone would think it was "all." When he talks about you being "better now" it seems that you're taking it as if he's dismissing any other suffering, like that you're "all" better. Some better, maybe?

You also use the universal "only” (i.e. "all") “related to past experiences."

Don't lose sight of the bigger picture(s).

((((((((((((((((Deli)))))))))))))))))))
dunno what to say, so here's a lot of big hugs for you!

Sorry you're feeling like that.

You should check next time you seen him, but maybe he meant therapy and meds are what are helping, not that you told him that and now everything is going to be great.

Maybe he didn't word it well.

Take Care

thank you so much (((everyone))). you guys mean so much to me, and i'm so lucky that you care enough about me to reply also .

i'm just gonna snip bits & pieces so this post doesn't end up even more mammoth than usual (lol! deli tries to be concise ).
i know it is a huge step for me, and i know it is an important one. it's definitely something i need to address in order to get where i want to be. i guess... though, i was starting to feel better even before i told pdoc about the csa. there was maybe a month before i told him about it where i had just started the new meds, and we were both like "wowowowow, this is a miracle drug". heck, i even went on a date with a stupid boy (first time eVeR ).

maybe it comes down to... if he remembers how much the drugs help, then he'll know that part of my depression has a biological component and that it's not my fault. but if he thinks it's all due to life experience... then it is my fault? i should have done better? got out of it sooner? talked about it earlier? i think this might be the big issue for me . gross. but thank you for replying in your drug addled state, tree!! i hope you feel better soon, darling .

this is just a side thingy, but i was raped when i was 21 too. not really a big deal (in terms of what i consider the significant events in my life), but i feel kind of bad because i didnt tell pdoc, and i had been seeing him for 2 years at that stage. it happened on a sunday and i saw pdoc on the monday. it's not something i feel i have the need to talk about, but i wouldnt mind him just knowing it as a single sentence or something. but i would feel bad telling him now, because he thinks the csa thingy is significant, and this rape thingy really really wasn't THAT big a deal (i'm not saying it hasnt affected me - it has, but it only built on stuff that was already there) so i dont want to tell him in case he blows this one out proportion too.

it's almost like i wanna give him a list and say "ok, this is how you're allowed to think about the previous influences on my life".

oh yeah. this is probably another part of it, too . the physical stuff i didn't admit to for a long time, but at least i never doubted that those events actually occured (i did doubt whether they where classified as physical "stuff", but yknow - i know that x,y,z happened). the csa on the other hand... is so hazy... it is very difficult to separate out whether it was just a dream or not. did that stuff actually occur? or did i make it up? the physical stuff is easier because at least i know it happened, i guess. so it's easier to accept that it had an effect on me. the csa... who knows?

pdoc reckons it happened. i trust pdoc so i will try to pretend it happened also, maybe. but a part of me just kind of gets shocked every now and again and thinks "holy fk, deli - what kind of mess are you tying yourself up into? this stuff never happened and it is scary that you even half believe that it did". so i dont know.

ok, lol. one reply is enough of an essay. will maybe reply individually instead. bit tired though, so it might come tomorrow instead .

thank you, sweetie. i know they have both screwed me up in different ways, but i feel like the physical stuff was worse because... it always made me feel bad. the sa was different. my equations:

anger/control/discipline/them being bored/whatever = physical stuff. deli deserves it because she is a bad person.

intimacy/gentleness/being loved = csa. deli 'earned' it because she was a good girl. for those 5-10 minutes when it used to happen (if it happened, oh fk, i dont know)... if it happened... deli was a good girl and she was loved and she meant something. and all she had to do was to be quiet and close her eyes and not tell anyone and be good. sometimes she also participated because it meant that she would be held in place, and that was nice also because it was almost like a hug.

of course, she was a bad person in the morning again. or even immediately after it was over. but just that period of time when it was happening was nice because she was good then and she liked being a good girl. it used to terrify her beforehand, and make her feel lonely and disgusting after... but just while it happened it was the best thing that could happen, because she could shut everything off and just focus on the fact that she was good.

pdoc will think deli was a ***** if she told him all of the above. maybe it is better that he just lives in his book smart world and doesnt think bad of her.

nothing to be sorry about (((sunny))). 'physical' for me would leave me hurt and bruised and... stuff for weeks later. csa didnt hurt physically because it was all very gentle and quiet - a secret. physical was big and screamy and the neighbours knew and not sure if you're gonna live through it.

csa... also... when it stopped happening physically... became more verbal and covert. being watched, being commented on, being told things to do. physical 'stuff' happened for a long time, but physical csa only happened for a few years.

****, i dont know why i'm even writing this. i am tired and will probably regret all of this in the morning. if anyone reads any of this, please dont mention it outside of this thread. because this thread will eventually sink off the first page and then i can pretend it never happenend and no one knows .

sunny - the rest of your post is so helpful, but i'm too tired to respond right now. same to you, impy and kiya and kureha . i've tired myself out. i should goto bed. i'm meant to be studying but i'm thinking silly crap instead, so i should at least get some sleep so i can try the study thing tomorrow.

you guys seriously have no idea how grateful i am, though. i think the world of all of you.

Deli, that is the most painful statement that I've ever read on PC. I want to cry. What other people think and will think of you when they know the whole story is 100% opposite of what you imagine.

(((((((((((((((((((((deli))))))))))))))))))))))))

You are brave. And strong. And good.

(((((((deli))))))))

None of it was your fault. You're not a *****.

Deli, that is your fear rearing it's ugly head. Don't let it fool you. P-doc would not think that. He would probably want to cry too if he knew that was how you were feeling .

I know it's incredibly hard to put all of this stuff out there for us to see, but we're completely supportive. Those of us who have read and who will read will be an extended community to you. If you regret writing, know that we don't regret you sharing your heart. You are such a kind person that it makes it easy to be there for you, even when we don't have anything helpful to say (like me right now).

Being tired seems to bring out the best in you, then -- or maybe to let it peek out when your fears and judgments and whatever aren't up to protesting (protecting?) very hard.

Go ahead and regret, if you do. Perhaps you'll eventually get it out of your system that way.

Perhaps this is the wrong time... not really sure.... looking at this comment "Why don't you think CSA is physical? " From what I understand from 60 hours of classes and 6 years of therapy, sex abuse and physical abuse are techincally in different categories. Not that they can't go hand and glove. But then there is mental, emotional, religious, financial abuse - all in their own categories, but again often fitting together, and also neglect (which i am told ALWAYS is the case with CSA because it means someone wasn't paying attention).

Anyway, I agree with everyone on here Deli - you were not, are not, a *****. Not ever. ((((Deli))))

I was referring more to the idea that CSA is very complex and has a number of different components--emotional, verbal, psychological, physical (it has a physical component because there is touch involved), etc.

deli, thank you for clarifying what you meant. I understand now that when you said physical you meant physical hurt (not physical touch).

Deli . I am sure your pdoc is not going to think you are bad for having experienced CSA in the way you described. Deli, you have spoken of your pdoc before as not being trained to handle these things and how you have to be very professional with him. So it sounds like you don't really do therapy with him? Or do you? And if you do, how can you exclude such key topics? Are you really sure your pdoc is not able to deal with deep stuff like CSA and trauma? Also, you have said before that you go to Austin-T to work on uni-related things. So you have a pdoc for non-trauma stuff, and a T for uni-stuff. But who is helping you with the stuff that is so important???? Why can't you work with Austin T on the CSA? If you raised the topic, would he say to you "no, deli, we are only allowed to work on uni"? Why can't you have a mental health provider who will help you with whatever you need help with?? And are you sure your current mental health providers cannot do this?

Just remember that life events can cause changes in our biochemistry, sometimes short-lived, sometimes longlasting. It is an artifical distinction to say that some depression is biological and some is caused by life experience. Life experiences causes changes in biology results in depression. It's all the same, sweetie!

((((((((((Deli))))))))))

Deli is not a *****.

Your pdoc will NOT think that about you. He cares about you.

(((((Deli)))))

You are a good, caring person now, and you were an innocent little child then. You are not bad. What happened was not your fault.

did i really write all of this last night? wow. not going near a computer again when i'm tired, LOL. i think you are right fz that my censors go down.

i dont know if i can respond to everyone's posts right now. i just read over what i wrote and i'm a) surprised i actually wrote that stuff and b) really sad. it looks like there's a long way for me to go .

i dont know about the pdoc/***** thing. i want to ask him, but that makes me a bit scared. and i dont really want to know. i told pdoc a tiny bit of this stuff that first (and only) time i talked to him about it. how i used to offer to do it with other people i liked because then they would like me more. pdoc said it was understandable that i would try to "seduce" other ppl, given my experiences. he said it was almost stupid to use that word for a kid, but he didnt take it back either. he let it stand. so it follows that if i was trying to seduce other ppl (no one ever went through with it) that those times i also initiated it with the person who taught me... that i was seducing him too. so i think that makes me a *****, even if pdoc wouldn't use that word.

you're all so good and kind to me, and i dont really get why. eck - am falling into my tired & rambling mode so gonna stop here.

((((((((((((((((Deli))))))))))))))))))))

I think what you did is really normal for someone in a CSA situation.

I know that for me, I was little and really desperate for love, attention, someone to tell me I was pretty. The CSA seemed like it provided all of those things. Especially at the beginning, it felt good more than it hurt, I literally had no idea that it was "wrong", it seemed like a special secret more than anything else. Later, when it hurt, I didn't like it anymore, and it scared me, but I still was really too little to understand that it wasn't okay for other reasons besides it hurting.

When I was 5 or so, my grandma was giving me a bath and I reminded her to wash between my legs. She FREAKED OUT and said that was dirty, that she wouldn't touch me there, I had to do it myself, etc. etc. A lightbulb went on in my head, and I understood DEEP DEEP DOWN that what happened was bad, and *I* was bad, and dirty, and every other bad thing a 5 year old is capable of thinking.

I guess I'm telling you this story (which I will probably regret later, but I'll try not to delete it until after you've read it) because I want you to see, from outside the situation, that it's really normal for children to not understand that what's going on is not okay, and it's totally understandable that kids will seek out love and attention wherever and however they can get it.

You're not alone, Deli, and you're NOT a *****.

((((((((((((((((( deliquesce )))))))))))))))))))))

don't worry at all about this everyone is there sometimes.

hugs to you

Well done, deli! Since it's really the journey that's the destination anyway -- why is that bad?

Let me fetch out my plutonium tongs and pick up that word so we can take a closer look at it. C'mere, you little rascal...What exactly makes it so bad, besides your own judgment that it must be so? If I ever had to choose between being termed a ***** or deli's persecutor, I'm certain I'd opt for ***** every time. What do you suppose makes the other so repulsively (jmo) attractive to you?

No hurry, deli, but somewhere down the line you'll be needing to address this interesting little discrepancy and puzzle out whether we're all silly for loving you -- or, possibly, you are, for not.



-----------------------------------
Something else I don't get is:
Suppose, for the sake of argument, you really were a *****. Why, then, would that bring your value down -- instead of bringing the value of *****s the world over up?