austin t. moving out. not coping & things he refuses to talk about.

saw austin-t again today.
i had shut down completely - he had to ask all the questions and do all the guessing, and i just shook my head yes/no.

he wants me to move out. unlike pdoc & old-T, he is making things move really quickly. pdoc has always been the best about this, because he wanted me to decide what to do and then he said he would help if i needed/wanted it.

austin-t isn't really letting me decide. of course, he plays lip service to the idea but it's more like being forced into doing something & then retrospectively pretending it was my choice. he asked me if he could refer me to one of his social worker colleagues and i said no, but by the end of the session he said he would set it up anyway because he thought it was important. he also mentioned that one of his clients does philanthropic work and takes ppl in to her home, so he would talk things over with her. he said we would probably be good together, because she has OCD too and the reason she is coming to him is because she gets stressed that the ppl she takes in aren't as organised/tidy as she is. she lives in some triple storey mansion.

if i do move out, i dont want to live with strangers. i especially dont want to live in some boarding style place where i have no control over who the other ppl in my living space are. if worst came to worst and i absolutely had to share with someone, it would be someone who didnt bring strangers over at night. my best case scenario is that i could live by myself.

austin-t wants me to talk to uni and find out if they can put me up in some emergency short term accomodation while we figure out something more feasible for the long term.

i dont want to do all that moving. if i have to move, i just want it to be once. with all of my stuff in one go. i wouldnt be able to leave anything behind, so it would have to be some place where i could actually keep my stuff (ie not just uni dorms where there is no place to sneeze).

i dont really like austin t right now. he said he will see me prono bono next week but that the week after that he is away. i dont know how long for.

**eta: trigger for sui talk from here***
i am getting a bit upset with him. he refuses to talk about sui thoughts. i had brought it up on wednesday and he said he doesnt talk ppl out of it and changed the subject. at one point today he asked me what i was thinking and i said he doesnt talk about those things and he said yes and changed the subject again. at the end of today's session he asked me to tell him what my "self harm risk" was for the weekend, and i said there wasn't any point because he doesn't talk about it, and he said he had to ask because it was unethical if he didnt, but that i could always lie.

i dont think im just upset with him, i think i'm pretty angry. it feels like he is forcing this moving out thing on me, and it makes me want to quit seeing him. i need to feel like i have a choice and that i'm in control. and the thing is, i kind of would be prepared to move out. but i have pretty specific circumstances under which i would be prepared to do so and all the options he's throwing at me don't fall anywhere close to the mark, so i find myself just shutting down further and further and planning what to do (in a less life-affirming manner than one would hope) instead. the idiotic thing about this is that all that energy i'm pouring into my option B is energy i could be pouring into pursuing my 'ideal' moving out situation (which i would still need the help of others for). but given that austin-t's idea is that "any change is a good change", it doesn't really matter to him whether the change is so-so or good or great.

on a professional level it goes beyond "pretty angry" to fuming mad. i worked at a suicide crisis line for 2 years, and i did play a small part in helping to prevent ppl from taking their own life (even if it meant being deceptive at times and using information i'd gleaned to send the police their way because i couldnt talk them out of it). professional-deli wants to take the heaviest castiron saucepan she has and whack austin-T over the head for being a **** and having that sort of policy. but then deli-the-client thinks maybe he just has that policy for her, because she isn't worth the effort and hopes that he wouldnt enforce that policy with any of his other clients. so saucepan stays in pantry.

anyway. that's the update. my "homework" is to contact the SRC at uni, and also look at any other options i have open to me. i might go to the src, but other than that i'm kind of eh. im looking for the magic option and no one thinks it's important because apparently in my circumstances i should be happy with anything i can get. but im sick to death of the breadcrumbs under the table approach, and i either want something that will sustain me or i want out.

Hi! I live in austin too. I am not sure what your current living situation is or why it needs to change. I may have some more options for you. You can pm me if you like. I know you are not real keen on the lady with the mansion but maybe you can meet the lady and see the house...who knows maybe the house is so big you will hardly ever see her. I know you are pissed about the si and t's refusal to talk about it...sounds like you need a different t. Hang in there!

-deli

thank you both so much for replying.
i feel so gross for posting all of this stuff, and then i see that the 'read' count has gone high and it makes me feel sad that i really am that sucky.

cuddles are welcome at any time, so thank you ((((llt)))) .

((((((((((nf)))))))))) - thank you so much for your offer to help. unfortunately, i'm living in sydney (australia!) so things might not work out quite so well . the "austin" bit was a moniker that came around because my T dresses like someone from the austin powers movies.

seeing the mansion lady is probably a good idea, but i worry about whether it would then be rude to say 'no', yknow? beggars can't be choosers etc but i'm worried because T said she took some guy in off the street the other day and was having (severe) problems with him. so it makes me wonder if it is really a stable/safe sort of place to be?

re: the si thing. you're right. i've been wondering if austin-t is the t for me if he won't talk about that kind of thing. in one way i think, he's helped so much and no one is perfect. but on the other hand, i put up with my old-T against my better judgement and i regret staying with him for so long. it's difficult to know what the right thing to do is.

How odd that he won't talk about your suicidal thoughts (I'm assuming that's what sui stands for). I sort of understand when he says he won't talk people out of suicide. My t says if a person is intent on committing suicide, there's not much he can do to stop them. So, when I have those thoughts, he doesn't say things like how much he would be hurt by it and stuff. Instead though, he works to find out what I am so angry about (because generally the gist of the problem for me is anger.) Your t doesn't even do that? That's really strange. I'd find a different t.

Sorry you are having such a hard time right now. You sound really frustrated. I hope things clarify for you.

(((((deli))))) hang in there, deli. Wish I had time right now for a proper reply.

chris - i work from the premise that if someone is talking to you about suicide, then at least they aren't 100% intent just yet - there is a tiny amount of ambivalence you can work with. i know that is not always the case, but if i believe the opposite then i wouldn't bother trying helping ppl out. e.g., when i used to work i had 2 callers in one month, both of whom were in the process of actually attempting (very rare, thank god!). one i was able to work with and get to safety, the other one i lost. if i worked from the idea that i wouldn't bother then that would be 2 ppl i'd lost instead.

austin-t does kind of work to the root of the problem in a general way, but it's kind of a limitation because he doesnt address it directly. my big thing is hopelessness and feeling impotent to change. and he's figured that, but he just assumes that any change will be ok. and because im not allowed to talk about those thoughts, i cant really tell him what changes i require to keep safe.

it's ok, i guess . even if i could be open, i'm sure he'd be like "well, that's something to work towards and we cant achieve that right now". so maybe what i want doesnt matter anyway.

it just feels weird, because i dont recall ever having spoken to him about this stuff before. i could understand if i threatened it all the time - then it would be something to acknowledge but not delve into - but.... it just feels like he's refusing to take this seriously. i dont know. im hypersensitive and worried about the possibility that he's playing games with me.

i guess it's his job to be the therapist, and my job to be the client. so deli-the-client thinks, i can't be honest with him and he doesnt think im worth the effort to try and engage with on that level. and quite frankly, maybe he is right. so why am i continuing to see him?

it's ok, sunny.
i'll still be hanging around on monday talking to my src so no rush.
but thank you so much for taking the time to reply with even that. you're always so nice to me.

((((((Deli)))))
I'm so sorry you are in such a stressful situation right now. I hope the src people are able to help you. If not I would suggest going and meeting the social worker, they will hopefully know about resources that you can tap into that austin-t does not.

As to austin-t not discussing sui, I think that is totally unethical. I don't know the ethical standards for Australia, but here in the US if a client is suicidal they must be evaluated at every appointment. To not do so is malpractice. (I'm currently taking an ethics class.) I know that you were talking about not going to see pdoc for therapy any more so that you only had one T, but do you still have any med appointments with him. Could you ask him about austin-t's refusal to talk about sui and get his take on the matter. I don't want something to happen and you not to have someone to contact who will help you through the crisis. (not that i think you would end up in a crisis situation, but for myself it is always important and makes me feel safer to know that no matter what, I have that resource just in case- even when I'm feeling my best.)

I think the social worker may be able to help you in feeling that it is your decision and your plan as to what to do about where you are living. The social worker may be able to give you a couple of options that you could then choose from as to which one is best for deli.

Please take care of yourself and know that we are here to support you no mattter what decision you make.

My T also does not talk to me about my suicidal thoughts, when I have them. She has never SAID she won't, or that I can't talk about that or anything else, but when I go in there & I'm suicidal, she just won't talk about it & changes the subject. It's been really confusing for me but the best I can figure is that she's trying not to reinforce what she sees as negative behavior??

I'm in DBT, so maybe it's a DBT thing, I don't know. I really wish I had Linehan's book for T's sometimes, lol!

((((((((((((((((((((((((Deli))))))))))))))))))))))))

I'm not reading much right now, and replying even less, so please don't see my lack of a reply as a lack of caring....I DO care, and I wish I had the time/energy to put together something more helpful than a hug for you.

For now, though:

It seems so strange that a therapist wouldn't talk about suicidal thoughts. Heck, that's usually one of the first questions my t asks me. "Are you having any suicidal thoughts?" We go from there. I'd seriously think of finding a different therapist, particularly if this is a problem for you.

Deli, you always have control. Neither Austin-T nor anyone esle can make you move but yourself or the people you're living with right now. Remember that. T's aren't supposed to run our lives and they don't unless they try and we let them. I see no harm in meeting with people. As far as your conditions about moving out scenarios, how restrictive are you being? Are you sabotaging your efforts by being so restrictive that it prevents you from moving out? On the sui thing, don't know what to say. Sounds very odd for a T and bothersome. Where's pdoc these days?

Deli- Hmmmm.....Ive had to give this some thought. I think that the decision to move out has to be yours. YOU have to want to. I think you know the reasons mmoving out would be better for you, so I am surprised that austin-t didnt just go over and over those. I agree that you should move, but unless you believe this and understand how different your emotional/mental life could be not living with your parents in the conditions you live in, you may not be willing to make the sacrifices you need to make. And those sacrifices include not living in ideal conditions. Youre a student, not a working person, and havent got the resources to live as you would optimally like.

Oh, boy, as a young person you cant imagine the conditions I and my friends lived in to be free. You couldnt put a price on what living on your own does for your mental health. Regardless of who is your roommate. And that doesnt mean the roommate is necessarily involved with your life or that you even see each other very much. The list of benefits is pretty much endless. Not to mention, in your case, leaving abuse and learning not to abuse yourself to continue the legacy.

It is possible that if you do see this social worker she/he can make the transition easier and not as overwhelming as it might seem. I wish you would meet with the mansion girl, my instinct tells me that living on your own would bring benefits to you that you couldnt even foresee at this point.

I hope I dont sound like austin-t! Im on your side, Deli. I love and care about you Id love to see you safer and happier

Regarding the talk about suicide thoughts, I have a friend whose therapist told her not to talk about sui thoughts with her because if she did, she would have to hospitalize her. She said that when a person is suicidal, they have moved beyond the level of care provided in outpatient therapy. so she wouldn't be able to work with my friend if she said she was suicidal. The therapist did see the need to talk about those feelings, but they would have to be discussed inpatient or in partial. My friend refused to do anything suggested to help herself.

Also, there are some people who use suicidal threats to manipulate others, not saying you Deli, but maybe austin- T has had that happen with other patients. My friend (the one who I was talking about above) used to always talk about suicide and I worried constantly. She would tell me she set a date and made plans, said her goodbyes, etc and it drove me to the point where i was very angry with her and told her the next time she hints at suicide i would call 911. You really feel helpless and scared when someone is suicidal and yet they won't do anything to help themselves. I tried to help my friend, listened to her day and night, was there for her at the expense of myself! This was years ago, and today we are the best of friends and she is getting appropriate care.

(((((Deli))))))
Don't believe that lie......
You ARE worth the effort.
There must be some kind of disconnect here.

Oh, on the post read count, it might help to look at it as as a caring meter instead of a caring meter instead of a sucky meter. Sending you safe cuddles.

I agree with this! - often I open a post and want to reply but I can't at the moment. (esp if it's a long post)....sometimes I'll even open the same thread a couple of times!
I know I could just offer a hug.....but I feel so useless when that's all the input I have...

I don't have much to say since I'm conflicted on what therapist intervention should be regarding suicidal thoughts. I think anyone should be able to talk about them if they want to though. All I can really offer is a but I thought I would add one number to your replies to let you know I care.

deli, i'm so glad you are going to look into the campus housing. there is so much i want to say but i don't know where to start. in my artist way class this week we were talking about perfectionism and how it is a block. it prevents us from moving forward in our lives. i think when we want or expect things to be perfect we really hinder the growth and progress in our lives. you may not have the opportunity right now for the perfect living situation, but it sounds like you do have some pretty good options. you are in an intolerable situation, and you're tormenting yourself as well, and you need some space to heal and find peace of mind. maybe whatever living situation you get won't be your ideal but i can only imagine it will be a huge step in the right direction. maybe you can look at it as a stepping stone to something better. i know that's not what you want but "progress not perfection" as we say in 12-step programs.

same with your schoolwork. trying to "do your best" is holding you back. i am not convinced that what you are calling your best is in fact that but rather perfection. to do your best is to go through the process and do the best you can. if you don't go thru it then you haven't done your best in that situation. something i'm trying to focus on is just "showing up". it's hard. as a fellow perfectionist i want to wait until i'm ready and everything is perfect before i step out and do anything. but that holds me back like you wouldn't believe. it's not comfortable to show up sometimes when my best looks terrible, but i survive and my life is slowing moving forward even if at a snail's pace.

this perfectionism crap that we both struggle with is about trying to earn the love of others. we're so terrified people won't love us if we're not perfect but the truth is people already know we're not perfect. the only ones we fool is ourselves! not everyone will treat us as we have been treated in the past. does that mean we won't still experience crap from people? no. but most people will be a whole lot kinder to us than we imagine.

as for the self-hatred/sui thoughts i think you are internalizing your anger. you have this "i'm a terrible person" loop going on in your head but it makes no sense. you have had some horrendous things happen to you and they were absolutely not your fault. you had no control over those things as a child, and yes that is terrifying to accept but it's the truth. bad things happen and it really, really sucks. it doesn't mean you deserved or caused it. it's a consequence of free will and some of us have gotten caught in other's horrendous free will choices. you need to stop punishing yourself for things that are not your fault and direct your anger where it belongs so you don't destroy yourself. i'm not saying hate your abusers or even see them as "bad people". but what has/is happening is bad. and you should be angry about it. not at yourself but at your abuser(s).

deli, you're a wonderful person and so many people here care about you. please let austin-t and pdoc help you to find some freedom. you can't do it alone. none of us can because we're not meant to. please take gentle care of yourself sweet deli.

ok im only sort of half here at the moemnt lol so improb gonna be more blunt that usual - please dont take offence anyone....

first Deli - i love and care for you my friend - please dont hurt yourself

2nd - great you are thinhking of moving out - i know its very stressful - painful - and driving you mad - maybe it will help - if you see the woman wiht the mansion then let her know about your concerns - they are valid - and its best to be straight up - as i know oyu can be

Austin T - he cares about you - you know that - he has proved it time and time again - yes he is pushing - my T has told me to leave my job lots of times -i think he is frustrated that he thinks its harming me staying there (and it probably is) maybe Austin feels the same jmo

re austin not talking about su thoughts - some T's think it will make the matter worse - bring too much to the suface for us to deal with at the time so they sidestep the issue and go at it another way.... maybe thats what austin T is doing....?

The uni housing - is that in the uni? or nearby?

know that i care - you can do this - i am here with you sitting with you even if i am not here physically ok

take care

P7

(((( deli ))))
Deli, you seem to have many reasons why you cannot move out. In another thread I remember you said another reason was that it was too expensive to live near campus and you didn't want to live further out because of the added cost of transport. It seems like you are boxing yourself into a corner. You have said you won't live on campus because of the hostile climate toward women. You won't live off campus because it is too expensive, too far, you'll have to move twice, you won't live with anyone you don't know, with anyone who brings people over at night, or you want to live on your own... I wish you could just get out and try it, Deli, maybe just for a short time, a week or two trial period. Maybe it would be so great, you would be willing to make compromises after that just to stay away from home.

Deli, this stood out to me so much. It sounds like you envision leaving as a catastrophic event breaking all ties with your family, not even being able to leave any of your belongs at home, even temporarily. Maybe it doesn't have to be that way. Maybe you can just leave on relatively good terms (not because you necessarily want that, but to avoid conflict). If you move out, you don't need to tell the family it is because of them. You could just say you've been waiting for the right opportunity to move, and here it is. Parents expect their adult children to move out at some point, so it is very plausible. So if you leave on decent terms, could you move to the dorm temporarily and leave some of your stuff at home? Could you box it up and put it in a closet somewhere at home if you think it would be in the way? Then after a month or two, go back and get the rest after you've found a more permanent place to live? I worry that things are never going to be ideal for moving, Deli, and so you just won't do it.

I also worry too about all the sui thoughts. You say you had completely shut down, and then in the same session Austin T is really pushing you to move. I can only think that the two are somehow connected, that something impossible to tolerate with your family has pushed you toward this, and Austin's idea is to remove you from the family. Perhaps not a bad idea at all.

Deli, I know this is not the same at all, but when I was a teen, I used to self-harm. No one knew about it and I had no idea anyone else on the globe had ever done this. I did this mainly to help me get through an intolerable home life. At 17, I left home to go to college. I put over 1000 miles between me and my family (my mother was the one I was escaping). Once I got out of town, I never self-harmed again. Ever. Or wanted to. Once I was out of that environment and away from her, there was no need to "cope." So much in my life was "solved" and became easier once I was away from them. I wonder if you left, might you experience similar feelings of relief, escape, improved functionality, etc.?

Deli, is there any way you can ask Austin T why he turns away from sui talk? I can see it might feel very rejecting. Maybe it would help you tolerate his behavior if you knew why he did it.

Good luck with the homework, Deli. I hope you do go so see Social Worker and that she/he has some good ideas.

I don't like the idea of your T telling you want to do. I know my T who works with domestic abuse cases, says that if she were to tell them what to do, that they needed to leave, etc. that she would be putting control over them like their abuser is doing. It is up to the client to make those decisions. It is okay to recommended things, but it sounds like your T is a little too controlling.

theres' a lot in here. thank you all oos much .
i had the worst anxiety attaxk earlier. i cant remmeber if ive ever felt that ba dbefore.

flaoting now and im gona sleep becuse 3am adn what ccan i do.

((((Deli))))) You know, you have a fmily of online friends who care very much. I just want you to know that.

I agree with Sunny- it doesn have to be all or nothing. Dont leave, or leave not a travce of you behind. It can be accomplished in steps. It REALLY can.

And I didnt say it in my last post, but I also felt strongly that the sui feelings and living situation are connected. I dont know what austin-t is thinking when he doesnt want to talk sui with you, but it could be the sui feels like the only way out of an intolerable life and that there IS another, healthy way out. You just need to jump the big hurdle and your over it, and from there, you may not feel so sui. You will have a purpose, that of taking care of Deli.

Look at all of your responses and everyone that loves and cares for you, my sweet Deli You can do this........... Deeeeep breath......