[deliquesce]

austin-t told me today that i'm "wilful" and stubbornly avoiding issues and "caught up in victimhood". i hate him so much.

i want pdoc and i want a real hug and i want someone to tell austin-t that i've NEVER been a victim, because i always always always looked after myself and i'm still looking after myself and that being accused of somehow wallowing in victimhood is so painful and misguided that i wonder if he knows me at all.

(((((((deli)))))))

i'm sorry austin-t made such boneheaded comments to you. i think you need to be the one to tell him this though:

Originally Posted by deli

i want someone to tell austin-t that i've NEVER been a victim, because i always always always looked after myself and i'm still looking after myself and that being accused of somehow wallowing in victimhood is so painful and misguided that i wonder if he knows me at all.

[skeksi]

Ouch. I'd be hurt, too. {{{deli}}}

[googley]

((((((((((Deli))))))))))

I'll give him a kick in the pants if you want me to. Sometimes he seems to say some of the most boneheaded things. I'm so sorry he said another one.

[Onward2wards]

Sorry to hear it. I say, if a T is really doing little anymore but make you feel put upon, it may be a bad fit and its time to find another one. Good luck with everything.

Ugh (((((((((((((((((deli))))))))))))))))))))

[Kiya]

ugh! T said that to me about a year ago also!! >=[ I too was furious for your same reasons!!! It sadly has been one of those topics we return to when one of us is put out. Grrrrrrr. I'll grrrrrr at him too, but i really hope you will tell him what you told us!

Sometimes I really have to wonder where Ts come up with the things they say. For example, last week GT told me that ... well i started titrating off a med because NO ONE will help me get off it OR continue to cover it in the past 9 months. So i started safely, and there was a bad reaction and she actually said to me "So you thought you'd be the doctor?? You thought you'd cause a crisis and let everyone else deal with it??" @_@ REALLY??? Is there some book of "Stupid Things T's Can Say to REALLY Piss Off Clients"????

Maybe we need to send him back to T school. Give him a "civilian ticket" for bad public behavior and send him to T Traffic Violation School. (((((((((Deli!!)))))))))

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by bloom3

i'm sorry austin-t made such boneheaded comments to you. i think you need to be the one to tell him this though

it's something that keeps coming up. i dont know if i just havent been telling him loudly enough. clearly, it hasnt been effective. im not really sure that telling him again is going to help. but i do think maybe i need to call him on it. i dont know.

Originally Posted by googley

I'll give him a kick in the pants if you want me to.

please do . this made me smile, googles .

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

Sorry to hear it. I say, if a T is really doing little anymore but make you feel put upon, it may be a bad fit and its time to find another one. Good luck with everything.

thanks, onwards. the problem is that he actually has helped me - more than any other T i've gone to. but his poor opinion of me (which comes up now and again) makes me terribly upset. i need to decide whether i can just put that to one side and keep going back because i DO make changes because of our work. it's difficult, though .

Originally Posted by Kiya

ugh! T said that to me about a year ago also!! >=[ I too was furious for your same reasons!!! It sadly has been one of those topics we return to when one of us is put out. Grrrrrrr. I'll grrrrrr at him too, but i really hope you will tell him what you told us!

Sometimes I really have to wonder where Ts come up with the things they say. For example, last week GT told me that ... well i started titrating off a med because NO ONE will help me get off it OR continue to cover it in the past 9 months. So i started safely, and there was a bad reaction and she actually said to me "So you thought you'd be the doctor?? You thought you'd cause a crisis and let everyone else deal with it??" @_@ REALLY??? Is there some book of "Stupid Things T's Can Say to REALLY Piss Off Clients"????

Maybe we need to send him back to T school. Give him a "civilian ticket" for bad public behavior and send him to T Traffic Violation School. (((((((((Deli!!)))))))))

i'm speechless about what GT said. my GOSH. how did you respond, kiya? sometimes i can be quite reactive and be assertive, but today i think i just wore my mask of "everything's fine; you can't see that you're hurting me".

lol, i think a civi ticket back to T school is in order, for both GT & austin-t.

[Luce]

So deli... WHY does Austin T see you that way? What could it be about your way of being and his way of interpreting things that makes him feel that?
Please don't get me wrong - I am not in any way insinuating that he is right. I'm just wondering if you yourself have any idea what could be driving his comments. WHAT is giving him that idea?

[Popskid]

I use to ask my t if the class on "how to make potentially homicidal clients want to kill you" was required to get your MSW. He told me that he thought it was an elective... Sorry you are having a hard time with your t. They all seem to have a way of doing that.

[darkrunner]

Deli,
I like what Luce has to say, that instead of reactin emotionally it might be helpful to look at it from a different perspective. It sounds like austin-T is kind of being hard on you, but sometimes T's have to be hard on us to get us to make a jump. My T has been awfully hard on me lately, but I know I need it.

Originally Posted by deliquesce

austin-t told me today that i'm "wilful" and stubbornly avoiding issues and "caught up in victimhood". i hate him so much.

I admit that I am willful. Actually being 'willful' versus being 'willing' is a CBT concept, and maybe that is not how austin-T intended it, but it is true that willfullness at times can be a barrier to making progress. I know it has been for me, and when I change to the more 'willing' mindset I am able to accomplish more. It really is a change in attitude.

Originally Posted by deliquesce

i want pdoc and i want a real hug

I'm glad you can go to pdoc for comfort. When I read this it reminded me of how a child can be with their parents - when one parent is being tough on them it is natural to want the parent who is not being so tough, and to 'hate' the one who is. I think it is normal and natural.

Originally Posted by deliquesce

i want someone to tell austin-t that i've NEVER been a victim, because i always always always looked after myself and i'm still looking after myself and that being accused of somehow wallowing in victimhood is so painful and misguided that i wonder if he knows me at all.

I don't think being a victim means not being able to look after yourself. In fact, I think a lot of the times victims are forced to look after themselves, espcially child victims, because the adults in their lives won't do it for them. I'm not saying that is the case for you, but I guess I don't understand how what you're saying here relates to what austin-T said.

Originally Posted by deliquesce

being accused of somehow wallowing in victimhood is so painful and misguided that i wonder if he knows me at all.

You used quotes around what austin-T said, and if those were his exact words, it sounds like he was not at all saying you are wallowing in victimhood. Wallowing has very negative connotations. being 'caught up' in victimhood, to me, sounds more like just being stuck. I don't think he was judging you at all (nor am I, because I am often in the same place). Sometimes when we are in a place we are so entrenched there, that we can't see it from an outsider's perspective.

Deli, I'm not saying that austin-t is right or wrong. I really don't know enough about your situation to say either way. But I'm sure he didn't purposely intend to hurt you. It's ok to hate him (and you can hate me too, if you want).
But it might be more helpful for you to be open to what he is saying and explore it with him.
Sorry if I am offending you.

[WePow]

((((((Deli))))))) Sometimes a T just doesn't use their words the right way. Urrrrrr.
I had my college T tell me "I think you stay in these situations becuase you don't want change. You wouldn't know how to live a happy life." ---
I avoided him for a month after that~!! I hated him more than I hated anyone in the universe!!!

I finally went back to see him because he made me (or I would have been kicked out of college) and I was sitting there with my arms crossed. He told me that he knew why I was mad at him - I was like "So tell me! Why I hate you!" Then he told me it was because of what he said. I called him "brilliant" and glared at him. Then he told me what he was trying to say. And he said he was letting me "stew" because he wanted to see if I would figure it out for myself but figured I needed help with that too- (( duh! Hello! ))

He told me that sometimes when a person grows up in abuse, that is all they know. They understand fear and running. If someone is mad at them, they get it. They live with the expectation that the world will crash in around them at any given chance. And that was how he saw me living my life. He said it was not something "bad" I was doing, just the result of growing up in a chronically abusive situation.

He said that what he was trying to get me to see what that I really never knew what it felt like to be "normal" - to not always be looking over my shoulder or ready to duck and cover. He said that whenever I did find a healthy relationship, that I was subconsciously doing something to destroy it because it "felt off" for me. My mind said "This is going to end very badly anyway. They are obviously hiding something. They will hurt me in the long run." With that belief system, I would see problems where there really were no problems. My friend might be having a hard day and get cross with me, but I would destroy the entire friendship rather than be able to talk with them about what was said.

He told me that my mind was trying to fight to keep what it knew. I didn't know how to deal with healthy relationships because I never had one before. And when things would start to be "normal" in the home situation, I was always looking out for something bad to happen. I didn't know how to live in a state of peace at home.

He said there were things I could do to get myself on a more solid footing in life, but I was terrified of the changes I would have to make. He was spot-on. I knew how to have an enemy. But I didn't know how to have a friend.

Just wanted to share this with you because I do understand how frustating comments like that can be for a client!

[Oceanwave]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

austin-t told me today that i'm "wilful" and stubbornly avoiding issues and "caught up in victimhood". i hate him so much.

i want pdoc and i want a real hug and i want someone to tell austin-t that i've NEVER been a victim, because i always always always looked after myself and i'm still looking after myself and that being accused of somehow wallowing in victimhood is so painful and misguided that i wonder if he knows me at all.

Deli, it sounds as if you T is frustrated with you. Do you want to say a bit more about the context in which he said all this? It might help you figure out why he said it and what he really meant.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Oh my gosh Deli!

Can you tell austin-T that shaming the client is, how do I say this politely, not a recommended approach. grrrr

you know us - we are for you when you call.

[WikidPissah]

My old T used to piss me off all the time by asking "do you really want to get better?" I would respond "yes". He would counter with "I don't think you do". ARG!!! Why the hell would I keep coming week after week and putting up with his bs if I didn't want to get better??? It was a constant circle, and it frustrated the hell out of me.

T's say and do things that piss you off. Sometimes they are absolutely wrong in their assumptions of us, after all they aren't mind readers (although it would be much easier if they were!) Let austin T know he pissed you off once again. Keep calling him on it.

[Oceanwave]

Originally Posted by Eileen2010

My old T used to piss me off all the time by asking "do you really want to get better?" I would respond "yes". He would counter with "I don't think you do". ARG!!! Why the hell would I keep coming week after week and putting up with his bs if I didn't want to get better??? It was a constant circle, and it frustrated the hell out of me.

Don't forget that Ts sometimes play the devil's advocate. I suspect deli that's what yours is doing right now, and you'd have to understand why. Discussing this with him will surely help.

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

it's something that keeps coming up. i dont know if i just havent been telling him loudly enough. clearly, it hasnt been effective. im not really sure that telling him again is going to help. but i do think maybe i need to call him on it. i dont know.

please do . this made me smile, googles .

thanks, onwards. the problem is that he actually has helped me - more than any other T i've gone to. but his poor opinion of me (which comes up now and again) makes me terribly upset. i need to decide whether i can just put that to one side and keep going back because i DO make changes because of our work. it's difficult, though .



i'm speechless about what GT said. my GOSH. how did you respond, kiya? sometimes i can be quite reactive and be assertive, but today i think i just wore my mask of "everything's fine; you can't see that you're hurting me".

lol, i think a civi ticket back to T school is in order, for both GT & austin-t.

i just want to add that i dont believe for ONE SECOND that your therapist has a poor opinion of you.

[phoenix7]

Originally Posted by Oceanwave

Don't forget that Ts sometimes play the devil's advocate. I suspect deli that's what yours is doing right now, and you'd have to understand why. Discussing this with him will surely help.

My old T (bless his little cotton socks ) used to things to me to make me think abuot things - things i didnt want to hear - and he once said i was being wilful in not moving forward - i put my mask on and did the rest of the session as if nothing was wrong - but i know he noticed the withdrawl cos the next session he asked about why i had distanced myself from him

i told him he had hurt me by saying that i didnt want to get better and that it made me sound like a spoilt child (wilful) that wouldnt move cos somthing upset her and he said well........
you see in a way i was - i didnt know it - but inside i wanted to stay wiht what i knew - my abuse had taught me this was the safest way to be and there was no way my inner self was giving that up wihtout a fight

so it wasnt that i was saying nope dont want to get better - inside i was saying nope not takingthe chance that things may be wrose when im safe here..... sighs ..does that make any sense?

when he fully explained his comment i went away and thought about it and agreed he could be right ... jjust could be mind you (dont tel him i said that cos he was always right lol - wherever you may be T bless yuo for putting up wiht me )

the only way out is through - i cant remember who said that - but its true jmo - and the only way out of this is to talk to austin T about it and how it made you feel adn see what he says - i hope you discuss it with him - i knwo hes helped you a lot

big hugs

[Fartraveler]

I've been thinking about this thread all day -- Deli, you always do raise the most thought-provoking questions!

I agree that having that victim mindset does not imply that one isn't competent at taking care of oneself. I've also always taken care of myself, but, yes, I have come to realize that I do, in a sense, think of myself as a victim.

The problem is, I actually am a victim, I did undergo people abusing me. That's just reality.

I think that the difficulty here is distinguishing between (and I'm just inventing terminology here) "being a victim" and "having a victim mindset."

"Being a victim" is often just an unfortunate fact.

"Have a victim mindset" is generalizing that experience to other aspects of one's life. I mean thinking that the world in general is going to take advantage of <me>, or hurt <me> or thinking that someone <I> am less capable or more wounded or more something, as a kind of general constraint, which will always exist, and which always will differentiate <me> from the more normal folks in the world.

So, it's kind of like "being a victim" is a fact, which can be dealt with in a variety of ways, and "having a victim mindset" is a story that <I> tell myself around that fact.

And the story can always be changed.

So does that make any sense to anyone? I'm really just thinking out loud here, but this is actually a question I've been mulling over recently.

-Far

[Onward2wards]

One thing I do need to add to my previous post: although I have never had a T or counselor accuse me of sinking into a victim mentality, I have caught myself at times throwing an expert "pity party" when I am caught up in a negative attitude. If I don't expect much positive in a situation, it is easy to simply not demand enough of myself, either. We all do this - I am painfully aware that I do it too. The realization was very humbling. Maybe this is what your T is trying to point out, although it seems he is aggressively overstating the fact and obviously his communication style is in need of some serious improvement, imho!!!

[deliquesce]

thanks for your thoughtful replies, lovelies . austin-t's comments through me right off last night, sorry i didn't come back to reply earlier. not sure i'm going to cover everyone's comments here, but i'll try my best.

Originally Posted by Luce

So deli... WHY does Austin T see you that way? What could it be about your way of being and his way of interpreting things that makes him feel that?

i suspect that i may be more "argumentative" than his other clients and that this rubs him up the wrong way. i think he interprets my saying "yes, but..." or trying to question him further as me being resistant to his suggestions. hence, being wilful, stubborn, not wanting to let go of being a victim etc.

thing is, i'm pedantic. i see things in a lot more detail than most other people do, so i anticipate more objections, or need more clarification. my thinking style needs all the details filled in before i can see the big picture; i'm absolutely woeful at making general summaries (can't see the forest for the trees).

so my questioning austin-t, or raising objections, or whatever comes from a place of me needing details in order for his suggestions to work. but he interprets it as me just not being willing to do the work.

example from yesterday: we're talking about triggers, and how i can manage them and also graded exposure so i can overcome them. i study psychology, i've seen the evidence for how this works, i'm committed to actually seeing it through. so one of my big triggers is having my back facing an open door, and we were talking about maybe when i'm home i can leave the door open just an inch and learn to be calm with that, then open it a little bit more etc.

my problem is that i've done this, a million times, but the anxiety hasn't reduced at all. austin-t told me to talk to myself "i'm safe, no one's at home etc" and also do relaxation exercises. and i can do this, and i have done this, but it still doesn't work because - fundamentally - i don't believe i'm actually safe. repeating "i'm safe" to myself doesn't change my belief that i'm not. telling myself that no one else is at home doesn't mean anything to me until i've checked every room, every wardrobe, under the beds, and then started again because maybe someone has got in since i last checked (i dont do this, btw, but i would have to in order to convince myself no one else is at home).

so i tried telling this to austin-t and he got all stroppy with me and said what he did. and i'm only telling him this stuff because this is what i need help with - what do i do with this situation? i WANT to stop being anxious, but telling myself i'm safe isn't helping because i don't believe it.

now that i've had some time to reflect, i know what we needed to do (look closeley at my cognitions re: safety, prevent hypervigilance with is another safety behaviour which interferes with graded exposure) but this is all stuff i know because i've studied anxiety disorders myself. this is stuff austin-t should be doing with me, not attacking me because i'm not playing along.

edit: i really want to respond to everyone else, but i have to run off to uni (i'm meeting a potential supervisor for next year!!! fingers crossed we click). there are interesting points being brought up here which i'd like to explore more, so please keep posting even if we're going on tangents. this discussion is really valuable to me .

deli, when austin-t asked you to keep the door open a little was he talking about the front door or an inside door like to your bedroom? i'm asking because if he's suggesting to keep the front door open and expecting you to eventually feel safe that may be rather unrealistic in this world we live in. if it's an inside door then it does make more sense. have you ever considered taking a self-defense class or martial arts so you would feel safer in your own place? i know that is something one has to be ready to do so as not to get triggered there, and maybe you're not ready yet, but it could be something to consider in the future if you've never done it. it could give you a real sense of your own power.

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

I've been thinking about this thread all day -- Deli, you always do raise the most thought-provoking questions!

I agree that having that victim mindset does not imply that one isn't competent at taking care of oneself. I've also always taken care of myself, but, yes, I have come to realize that I do, in a sense, think of myself as a victim.

The problem is, I actually am a victim, I did undergo people abusing me. That's just reality.

I think that the difficulty here is distinguishing between (and I'm just inventing terminology here) "being a victim" and "having a victim mindset."

"Being a victim" is often just an unfortunate fact.

"Have a victim mindset" is generalizing that experience to other aspects of one's life. I mean thinking that the world in general is going to take advantage of <me>, or hurt <me> or thinking that someone <I> am less capable or more wounded or more something, as a kind of general constraint, which will always exist, and which always will differentiate <me> from the more normal folks in the world.

So, it's kind of like "being a victim" is a fact, which can be dealt with in a variety of ways, and "having a victim mindset" is a story that <I> tell myself around that fact.

And the story can always be changed.

So does that make any sense to anyone? I'm really just thinking out loud here, but this is actually a question I've been mulling over recently.

-Far

i think you put it perfectly.

[deliquesce]

sorry about not replying earlier - i've been out doing real world things . and then our internet kicked . anyway, more selective replying, because im too tired (sorry) to reply to everyone individually.

Originally Posted by Oceanwave

Don't forget that Ts sometimes play the devil's advocate. I suspect deli that's what yours is doing right now, and you'd have to understand why. Discussing this with him will surely help.

ive spoken to austin-t about this before. i'm not in therapy to be manipulated; to have someone purposely push my buttons so that i react in a way they would like me to. that's patronising and i don't go in for it. austin-t knows my thoughts on this and has agreed that he won't do it with me.

Originally Posted by phoenix7

you see in a way i was - i didnt know it - but inside i wanted to stay wiht what i knew - my abuse had taught me this was the safest way to be and there was no way my inner self was giving that up wihtout a fight

so it wasnt that i was saying nope dont want to get better - inside i was saying nope not takingthe chance that things may be wrose when im safe here..... sighs ..does that make any sense?

i understand this completey, (((((P7))))). the thing is i AM willing to take risks for this, but i don't see how it can work and i'm trying to point this out to austin-t and he's assuming that i'm refusing to take risks.

i want to get better, and i'm willing to do graded exposures to get there, but the model he is using is leaving out a huge variable and pointing this out is making him all stroppy with me.

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

"Being a victim" is often just an unfortunate fact.

"Have a victim mindset" is generalizing that experience to other aspects of one's life. I mean thinking that the world in general is going to take advantage of <me>, or hurt <me> or thinking that someone <I> am less capable or more wounded or more something, as a kind of general constraint, which will always exist, and which always will differentiate <me> from the more normal folks in the world.

So, it's kind of like "being a victim" is a fact, which can be dealt with in a variety of ways, and "having a victim mindset" is a story that <I> tell myself around that fact.

this makes sense, Far. however, i think that the victim mentality/victimhood label is thrown around disparagingly, and certainly that is how i felt with austin-t using it. imo, it makes sense that i believe the things i believe because being a victim wasn't a one-off event or fact, it was a series of facts that constituted my the majority of my world up until i was 18 and beyond. and the story i tell myself is based on those facts. being told that i'm "wilful" suggests that i'm just being stubborn in refusing to change my thinking - that i'm silly for telling myself the story that i did and that all of a sudden i should just believe i'm safe because my therapist tells me so.

Originally Posted by bloom3

deli, when austin-t asked you to keep the door open a little was he talking about the front door or an inside door like to your bedroom? i'm asking because if he's suggesting to keep the front door open and expecting you to eventually feel safe that may be rather unrealistic in this world we live in. if it's an inside door then it does make more sense. have you ever considered taking a self-defense class or martial arts so you would feel safer in your own place? i know that is something one has to be ready to do so as not to get triggered there, and maybe you're not ready yet, but it could be something to consider in the future if you've never done it. it could give you a real sense of your own power.

yeah, he meant an inside door. this is something i brought up as something i want to work on, it wasn't his suggestion.
i dont know about doing self defence. maybe one day, but i think for now it would be too triggering. and also, i'd like to think that one day i wouldn't need that skill, because i wouldn't be worried about that sort of stuff happening. it feels like another safety mechanism to me, and that's what i'm trying to let go of...?

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

i'm speechless about what GT said ("So you thought you'd be the doctor?? You thought you'd cause a crisis and let everyone else deal with it??"). my GOSH. how did you respond, kiya? sometimes i can be quite reactive and be assertive, but today i think i just wore my mask of "everything's fine; you can't see that you're hurting me".

lol, i think a civi ticket back to T school is in order, for both GT & austin-t.

My jaw dropped just like your smiley icon and i said "**I** didn't cause a crisis!!!!" She merely repeated me in her elfish way (she reminds me of an elven character or something complete with elf features, so it is easier to talk straight to her for me - like I can't tell if she's serious or not). It still ruffled my feathers. I hope YOU ALSO tell t!! Don't pass it off for fine. It's really not fine.
((((((((Deli))))))))
Kiya