How to go from T giving it to me, to me giving it?

Yes, I think I do, and I tried to describe my understanding and to answer your question. But then you said you felt that noone was listening to you and your question hadn't been answered, and I felt confused, which is why I haven't replied further.

I understand that you may be feeling low or panicky; my experience is that this thread has become quite triggering and several people are taking quite a black and white approach to relationships with family vs. relationships with therapists.

I hope you're ok.

Okay, Rainbow--I'm back.
Several points I'd like to make: It is a given that borderlines fear their T's dying or leaving and it freaks us out--even if they're style is "distant."

There is an entire, successful model of therapy for borderlines CALLED Transference-Focused Psychotherapy, being run by The Personality Disorders Institute at Weill Medical College of Cornell University. So, transference therapy for borderlines has definite and professional support.

Next, I don't think I'm in a position to tell anyone what to get out of their marriage. I have ideas about what a person ought to get, and about what marriage ought to be....but.........I've been married 22 years and we're still trying to figure out how to do it so that I'm happy. He's a saint. I've been a flaming borderline in my past--'way better now--but I'm sure he stayed for the children, and after we had them, he for da.n sure kept me in therapy. It's only recently--like in the last two years!!!!--that I've been a decent wife and mother. (THAT after menopause. Such a shame!)

The idea about being with kids letting you experience your kid-parts? Wahoo!!!! You betcha: I just had a wonderful Thanksgiving for exactly that reason with my 11- and 14-year-old and my husband--who likes games also. (Well, for a few other reasons, too, but that's the one that is the most fun.)

I know that much of the anxiety of even beginning therapy (let alone staying in it) is because we KNOW that the therapist is hired and the relationship is a little whacko: here we are crossing our OWN boundaries to tell someone, who might not like us if we disclose all, all about ourselves. Is that bizarre, or what???!!! Especially since the over-riding emotion we borderlines feel is shame. We constantly need reassurance, which is why learning self-soothing is so important, so that we can calm down enough to look at the facts of the relationship and see that we are surviving every minute of it, AND that we can even manage to find peace in those minutes/moments after long practice--and sometimes luck that we can learn to re-create if we can use rational mind long enough. AND, if we can self-soothe, we can gain enough time to snap back into being influenced by other people and by our responsibilities to them--and to our love of them. THAT is why the self-soothing is so important. Then the T becomes far less important emotionally and we can be relieved that they are there for us as support for all the other relationships in our lives that we so often endanger and regret the damage to.

There are different styles of therapy based on the T's, based on their counter-transference with us, based on their consultations with other T's, based on what they are learning currently from current research....it's all in flux, and we have to believe that good will come from it, how ever confusing it might be as t's learn to implement it in practice, and how ever confusing it may be as they shift their treatment modalities. Think of the "recent" enlightened view that we can at the very least improve.

My understanding is that you haven't been in the same dire place all through your mental health experiences: you DO have friends, you DO have a family. Those are huge successes. I salute you for not being satisfied with just functioning but with also wanting to be able to feel confident that you, yourself are loveable and capable. That shame and guilt we feel is a mountain, and it takes a lot of training to reach the summit, and that summit is a narrow place to stand for ALL of us--all people, but especially those challenged with mental health issues--and in particular phases of our lives, all of us who are teenagers, new mothers, menopausal, bereft, and whatever else I've left out.

A note on age: menopause, and pre-menopause can trigger us ALL all over again. SHEESH! Just when you thought it was safe.......!

Wow. Lots to say. And lots of love to you!

Geez, Melba, could you please not call me "Pecker?" I mean I guess it's kinda funny in a way but I'm not even a GUY!!
I'm actually quite content with my current T... we went through some very rocky periods for awhile but our relationship is solid and I'm not struggling with those issues in therapy anymore. I guess if I'm coming across as contradictory I must not be explaining things very well because I don't feel those contradictions you are seeing.

Rainbow, I've read a little about Transference-Focused Therapy that BPD2 was talking about. If you google Otto Kernberg or Frank Yeomans (not sure about the spelling there) you can find out more about it. There are some articles online and also some passages in google books I think.
Hang in there, Rainbow.

Thank you , bpd2. Your entire post is very interesting and calming for me. I keep rereading it. Thanks you very much!!!

I totally understand. I'm in the SAME BOAT

Good point, bpd2. The pre-menopause mood swings definitely affect me, so keep that in mind too, Rainbow. It's like the raging hormones of adolescence in reverse.

I never said Transference Focused Psychotherapy did not work for Borderlines. TFP and IFS are very different and deal with transference differently. TFP is acutally based on Object Relations and was developed for Borderlines and other personality disorder treatment. It is extremely structured and involves twice a week sessions where the client lives out the relationship-dyads with the therapist. The therapist is trained in this method and brings to "light" the dyads that are occuring.

Those that utilize TFP are VERY different from IFS therapists. They are very different therapies.

The point of IFS is to bring the parts in harmony so the Self operates like an orchestra. All "parts" playing their role, when the "burdens" are lifted.
TFP does not deal with this at all. It focuses 100% of the object relation dyads between the therapist and client.

Look, I am not telling anyone what to do. You asked for advice. From the outside looking in, it looks like you have spent years in therapy and have the same problem. You focus on the T-relationship and instead of deciding on a "proven" method of treatment for BPD, you choose another treatment method. Not good or bad...but you are the one saying you have done this over and over and over.

Life is short. If you choose to spend it in therapy searching for a relationship that is a business relationship, that is your choice. But if you want to make changes, then you need to start somewhere. It seems quite lucky to me reading this that you can say that you have a family...and had parents that loved you. A T is never going to love you....it's their job and their business. You are searching for something that you will never get....why? Instead of focusing on the relationships you do have and their meaning?

What do you need from the others in your outside life? What do you wish your parents gave you that they did not? What would be your perfect parent/daughter relationship? husband/wife relationship? mother/daughter?
Those are where the answers lie.... your T is a T. Your relationship is a business to them. You have people that love you, what will help those relationships?

What happens in your life if you are not in therapy? Are you relationships with your family/friends more significant?
Why are you in therapy? For the T-relationship?

Many people go to work on relationships....because they have none, have no family, need family therapy because things are falling apart, addiction, eating disorders, depression because life is bad because they have no support, etc, etc. Why are you there?

Just asking questions...

Why can a T not love a client? It is an intimate relationship that can go on for many years. T's are people with feelings, just like us. I really believe that there is a love that can and does exist within the boundaries of the therapeutic relationship. It is not the love of a parent, or a spouse, or a lover...but that doesn't make it "not love".

When I worked in mental health, I loved certain clients. I worked closely with them for a long time, and there were clients who worked really hard, or who were so open and willing to really share themselves, or that I just "clicked" with, and although we had a professional relationship that existed only in that environment, I did love them. Why wouldn't I?

I do believe my T loves me, and I believe it is a safe and healthy love. Our relationship is a T-client relationship, but that doesn't make it "not a relationship".

Allowing myself to be loved by T has opened me up to the possibility of being loved by other people. I've been married for years, but I never believed that my husband *really* loved me. I didn't' believe I was lovable, that anyone COULD love me. That has changed. I know my husband loves me, and he always has. I know my children love me, and my friends love me. The gift of being loved in therapy gave me the much bigger gift of being able to recognize and believe in the love that was already there for me outside of that room.

I just wanted to throw out a different perspective.

(((((((((Rainbow))))))))

The type of love the OP is searching for is different than what you described Tree. Rainbow is writing from feelings of child need and desire. The writing comes from wanting more than just the T-client relationship.

The reality of the situation is: when the $$ runs out or the therapist retires, or something arises in the therapist's family requiring the therapist to stop working, the "relationship" with the client ends.
The "love and caring" is not unconditional. It is a business, and each client is part of that business. T's keep notes about sessions to remind them about you, to protect them from you, and to keep it a business.

T's can absolutely have a relationship with a client; the relationship is a proven tool in the success of therapy. But the relationship is a business one.

People can goto therapy for whatever they want. Just pointing out that if the OP has been in therapy over and over and over trying to "find love," maybe the OP should start looking around her and questioning that instead of trying to get a T to "love her."

peace.

Rainbow, I've been following this thread with interest. I'm not sure I have anything useful to add. I know that I can now comfort myself, and that I no longer need my T for that (although I still love her dearly). I am not sure how I got to that point. But it did happen. Your T sounds good. Maybe just give it time? You really haven't been with her that long.

-Far

((((((((rainbow))))))))

i'm sorry you are feeling so hurt and unloved. i know you are rather conflicted as to whether therapy can be a help or hindrance for you. i think only time will tell but of course i hope it turns out to be a huge help for you.

one thing i've always wondered is if what you seek with your Ts is even possible to have in healthy real-life relationships. it may be that what you have with your Ts is more about being addicted to excitement rather than real pleasure which has its moments of ecstasy but is not in a constant state of arousal. when we've had (emotionally, physically,etc.) chaotic childhoods our brain chemistry literally becomes altered and we become addicted to excitement. this could be what is at play in your desire for great intensity with your Ts and your finding normal life rather unsatisfying. a simple analogy would be the difference between eating a healthy diet with occasional sweets and a diet of all desserts all the time which of course would make us sick and out of balance. so, it may be more about pursuing healthy relationships that have their occasional ups & downs, and lots of routine but pleasurable times rather than seeking a continual state of stimulation which can be fun and exciting for the moment but later leaves us exhausted, spent and ultimately unfulfilled.

You are precious PH! What a wonderful response!

Rainbow, I think that what you are doing can work. I look at any of this work as mirroring somewhat what would happen if it were an actual child (because correct child development is what needs to happen). Children need to be cared for so that they can learn to care for themselves. My children are already reaching that stage where they are relying on me less and it is my job to allow them to do it. But this needs to be done with great knowledge by the therapist so that the client can be released when the time comes. (And so that the client actually reaches that stage).

I agree that it worked for Treehouse and I also agree with Treehouse that helping professionals can love their clients. I have loved them and it is different than a regular relationship because there are strict boundaries but IT STILL IS LOVE! And this love is very healing when combined with proper psychological techniques.

I am sorry that you feel unloved and abandoned. But I really feel that your T did not mean to have this effect on you. Why not just call her and talk it over with her?

Something just came to my mind, this thread brought up thoughts that some people want to be loved and are open to it and seek it while others are not. I know that I lean on the side of not openly or willingly seeking love but I can give it out. Receiving love is sort of embarrassing for me. Hmmmmmm......... and embarrassment is really shame and I can certainly figure out where that shame would come from - from having a narcissistic mom who gave nothing but her physical duties of motherhood. I must have felt shamed when I sought love from her? Good stuff to know.....

Sorry Rainbow for highjacking your thread, it just came to mind with this debate of who wants/needs love in therapy and who doesn't. (I've had some clients who were so easy to love because they sought it and accepted it and I see people here who are the same way and others who are the opposite).

Good morning, Rainbow! (Morning for me!) I loved your message last night--maybe you could give an update to the thread?
Hope today finds you good!

bpd2, thanks for your cheery message! Yes, it's morning for me too. I see my T this afternoon and will discuss my concerns with her.

I think I overreacted to what she said about my poems (one is called Blanket of Love and is about how I feel she is giving me a soft blanket of love which I feel when I hold her hand). She said that the blanket lives inside of me and I can access it anytime. She also said we will keep working to separate my Self from the other layers so that I can give the child what she needs. Something like that, anyway. I took that to mean that she doesn't want me to get my needs met by her, but I know she will say it's okay, that we are WORKING on my doing it myself.

So, bottom line is that it is NOT always good for me to start threads like this, though they are interesting. I get triggered and instead, what I need to do, is talk to MY T directly. I am easily influenced by strong opinions and then I second guess myself because there is some truth in opposing viewpoints. I think it's too soon to tell, like Far said, whether this therapy will work or not.

I appreciate everyone's posts and will comment on them later. I don't want you to think I didn't read them all. I have to get ready to go somewhere now, and then therapy is a little later, so I'm not sure when I will get back to this.

Hey! I loved this thread! It's been important in helping me understand my own and others' points of view. Good on ye!

It's good to hear that you see your T today! Wonderful! I hope it is reassuring and full of plans for the next step(s)!

I want to finish the replies I didn't get to. Sorry if I missed anyone. It wasn't intentional; this thread just got too long and triggering for me.

bloom: what you said about possibly being addicted to excitement I'm sure plays a part in my "addiction" to therapy. I didn't have a chaotic childhood but I do seem to crave the intensity of therapy. As unhappy as I am about my session yesterday, part of me likes that feeling. Maybe it's the feeling of being noticed and even punished, in a matter of speaking. I wanted to be punished for driving by T's house. I was such a good kid, never got punished, didn't have the attention that could lead to intensity. I don't know if that makes any sense or not. I know craving intensity is a "borderline trait" but I don't know why.

Sannah: I appreciate your encouraging response! IFS has as its goal for the Self to be able to take care of all the parts and my T knows what she is doing in working with me to attain that goal. I tend to want to fight doing it, and that is something new to discuss with her.

What you said about receiving and giving love is interesting. I want to receive love very badly, probably more than giving it, but I am embarrassed about receiving it and tend not to believe it's for me.

I am surprised that you are embarrassed about receiving love? I pegged you as one of the people who can receive it. Now I'm really confused! You feel that you don't deserve love? Maybe this is why you are stuck here? You crave love, seek it but then you won't accept it?

I can relate to this, and to the vicious unfulfilled cycle it can create..

Wow, good questions, Sannah. Rainbow, if your child part can receive love but your adult self can't, then maybe the underlying problem isn't exactly an unmet childhood need for love. Maybe there's something else going on that you're not aware of, something that happened (could have been during your childhood but not necessarily) that's made your adult self feel so undeserving that you're unable to accept love from other people. That could explain why your adult relationships feel so unfulfilling but you crave love and it feels great to receive love from your T -- it's the only relationship where you can actually accept it because it's the child part that's receiving it. It would make sense that you would continue to search for love from T's because therapy brings out the child parts who can accept love and you can't accept it from anyone else.