How to go from T giving it to me, to me giving it?

This is very much how it's been with me and T. It was scary, scary, scary for me to ask him to meet my needs at first. I didn't even know I HAD needs. It took a LONG time. Once I started to learn how, T ALWAYS met my needs (within the boundaries of our relationship, obviously), and when I needed more, I got more. It SO hasn't escalated forever and ever. Now, I think that the lessons I've learned from T's example are starting to take hold, and I'm leaning WAY less on him and more on myself and other people outside of therapy.

I couldn't have imagined getting to this point a couple of years ago, but here I am. T never ever EVER stopped trusting that I would find my way, and I AM finding it. Just having him trust me in that way was a huge part of me learning to trust and depend on myself.

It takes time, and practice, and patience. It sounds like your T is willing to give you all of those. Maybe the first step is for you to give those things to yourself??

((((((((((Preacher))))))))))

What you are saying about your T makes perfect sense to me. He doesn't sound cold...it sounds to me like you can really feel his caring, and for me, that is huge.

I know it's a little off topic (sorry, rainbow!), but I know that I feel kind of yuck when I feel like people aren't "getting" my T. So I just wanted to jump in and throw some support to you and your T

Ditto to that. PH, your T sounds fine! In some ways, he reminds of my T (who I like a lot). I didn't read people saying your T was being an ogre, inflexible, extreme, or not kind and caring. I think the approach you describe is not uncommon. Some people may have a T that takes a different approach from yours, but that doesn't mean they think your guy is not a good T. There's a lot of variety in Ts out there (which is good for us, because we clients are a diverse bunch too).

Hey, what about me? Does anyone have any advice?

I'm sorry, Rainbow... I keep going back and reading your first post but I don't think I understand what you're really looking for as far as advice goes. Maybe I missed something?

Preacher, what you posted to me just now is so important to me. It is the crux of my problem, at least one of them! I hurt so much inside, try to say that, then you say you don't know what I want. I'm ignored and pushed aside a lot. I'm kind of invisible sometimes.

What I wanted was to be heard and to be given some hope that I WILL be able to go from T giving me love, to my giving love to myself. I wanted help with feeling depressed about it. I wanted acknowledgment of my pain. But, it seems like I have to shout to be heard, and then people IRL tell me I'm shouting at them.

I'M HURTING AND I DON'T WANT TO BE IGNORED.

I don't mind the way the thread went, but I feel (maybe it's one of my child parts) that "what about me" feeling.

Dear rainbow, the answers that are coming through to me are that, yes, you'll learn to give love to yourself, in the sense of self-soothing without having a meltdown if no one steps in to contain you, but--maybe more importantly, you're going to be able to ask others, in RL, to give you love, and it will be appropriate and will be available to you in ways that a t never, ever would be/could be. Hang in there. (see that? rainbow love!!!)

I didn't mean to ignore you or push you aside, though I know those feelings very well myself. I guess I don't know how to help when all I can offer is my own experience of getting through the pain by talking about it and feeling it and working it through. I offered my perspective as an alternative to combining the issue of self-soothing and getting love from our T's because they really are separate issues and I thought maybe it would help to see things more clearly if the two issues weren't mixed up together. But I don't know how to give you hope that you can go from getting love from your T to giving it to yourself because you will still need it from other people even after you finish therapy. In my opinion T's sometimes make a mistake when they omit that part and tell patients that the goal is for them to love themselves. If that's all we really need in life we might as well be amoebas.

Preacher, I just want to clarify that my T does NOT only say that I need to give love to myself. In fact, last session she specifically said we have to work on how I can get more touching in my life. She is always bringing my family into the conversation. I need to work on my marriage more. T and I know that. I need to be sure to connect with my kids and grandchildren. (Yes, if you didn't know it I'm THAT old) But I still have child parts that need love, and T says I can love those parts of me. It's the basis of Internal Family Systems work. So, again, I agree with you. It's not at all that I didn't want to hear your perspective. Maybe I just wanted some s.

bpd2--thanks! I know I have to ask for it. But my H can't be "Mommy" to me. It just feels better when T is the one to give it to me. I do have some women in my life who give good hugs, though, including a daughter. I think maybe I still have to work through some stuff from my childhood, and that's what is in the way. s to you too.

I've had T's tell me I can love those child parts too. But that doesn't help me because those child parts want THEIR OWN relationships with other people! They want to relate to adults in the only way they know -- as children -- and they want to be accepted and loved in that way too. Well, unless I'm prepared to reveal those child parts to anyone besides my T, it ain't happening. My T does accept and care about them and he allows them to play in his office while they talk to him, and he adjusts his conversations somewhat to accommodate them but he and I both know that he can't ever be the parent they want him to be, and he doesn't want to give them the false hope that he can be the good parent who loves them unconditionally -- which is one of his reasons for maintaining the boundaries he sets on meeting needs.
So this whole idea of me loving them is a moot point because that's not what they're looking for anyway, and my T knows that so he doesn't even bother telling me I can love them. He's trying to work with all parts of my system to at least establish a peaceful coexistence which will hopefully lead to an agreement between parts that we will work toward having relationships that meet needs on different levels even if we can't actually reveal the child parts because most people wouldn't understand.

I'm new , and I don't intend to intrude...but perhaps you need to focus more on what you have that is positive in your life. The T-relationship is indeed a real relationship, but it is not meant to "give you what you need." And I find it interesting that you are so focused on a "T" when IRL you have some relationships.

1) You stated that "your parents LOVED you" -- you know this, but yet you are focusing on getting "love" from your T, who in all reality is a paid support and relation. Her "love" or "caring" is a business venture. You pay her to "be/respond" a certain way. When you are "healed" or run out of money, she is gone. Parents and family are not.
Perhaps, you should be addressing your feelings about your parents, instead of focusing on your feelings needed from T. If your parents are alive, address it with them if your relationship is ok or address this issue in therapy.

2) You stated you were married. Support, caring, initimacy, should come from this relationship as well.

3) You stated you have children and grandchildren. Being with a child can bring "the child out in you."

I know the IFS model and I know what Schwartz teaches. It is a good method for many things. I am not so sure it is a proven technique for Borderline PD or "lite" Borderline PD because it does create incredible transference which is questionable in working with BPD. (ie you child part needs to hold the hand, needs to get a hug, and one gets stuck in the child part constantly, manipulating the T to respond to child part needs constantly, etc)

I guess what I see as an outsider looking in, is a person who has many relations IRL, but is trying to create a relation with a T that can not exist. All the parts in the world can try and get their needs met by your T, and you can learn slowly for your Self to fulfill those needs, but instead of using the business T-relationship, perhaps you should be working within the real relationships you have.

Particularly if you have been down this road with other Ts, multiple times. Aren't you getting tired of chasing a T?
You have people that love you!
If you have people that love you, that is where to start questioning what can improve in your life.
Your T will never love you -- remember it is their job and their caring and love is based around that fact. It is not unconditional.

This sounds like a very good idea!! You have to start where you are at and continue on with your childhood development in order to mature your child parts and integrate your personality into a whole adult.

Poet, I am going to discuss what you wrote with my T tomorrow. It makes sense but I know my T believes differently. How are you getting the information on BPD and IFS? I wanted more from my T who did not give to me, so I'm not sure I agree, yet part of me says you're right and makes me feel very depressed right now.

Does everyone agree with Poet? I know there's no right or wrong, but I just emailed my T to ask her about BPD and IFS. I'm awfully depressed right now.

The problem is that NO, I am not getting tired of chasing a T. Well, not true. The child parts were screaming because my former T wouldn't listen to them at all. This T said their stories need to be heard, and touch can be healing. I still think it can be, and it IS. T wants ME to be in charge of the parts.

I agree with what Poet says: we need to be working on the real-life, outside of the therapy room, relationships that we have. Isn't that the ultimate goal? I don't have BPD, so admittedly I don't understand that fixation on the therapy relationship. It almost seems avoidant to the current relationships with spouses, family, friends, etc. in our lives.

I think you need to learn to channel your capability to love to your family... not a person you pay to help you. Your family needs you and your love and they can love you back. Unconditionally. They may not replace your mother, but you should give them chance to form a good relation...

But I DO love my family!!!!! It's just not emough. Doesn't anyone understand???????

Rainbow, I have to say that based on my own experiences with former T's who met some of those child parts' needs, and my current T who does not meet those needs, I definitely agree with Poet. It felt SO good at the time when I had a T who met those needs but it reinforced the kind of manipulation that Poet describes ("the child part needs to hold the hand, needs to get a hug, and one gets stuck in the child part constantly, manipulating the T to respond to child part needs constantly.")
That's exactly what happened with me and I've seen that same process repeat itself over and over as I've been reading here and in other forums over the years. And if the therapy has to end prematurely for any reason, which sometimes happens because we have no control over certain events, it is even MORE painful to lose the "love" that the T had provided. I know that too because I went through it when a former T realized this was a mistake on her part, and she terminated because our needs clashed.
Still, it was extremely difficult to make the transition from a T who met those needs to a T who doesn't... probably one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, and I am 52 years old so I've had my share of life experiences. But it's been worth every ounce of pain because I now have a T who is committed to helping me explore, understand, and change my patterns of reenacting old behaviors that aren't healthy or useful anymore.
I feel bad about discouraging you from something that feels so good, and I don't want to say with certainty that this can't work for you. I'm just saying that I've been on both sides of the fence with different T's and my experiences echo what Poet said.

Rainbow,

Only you and your T can decide what's right for you. We can't know here on a message board what the "right" treatment is.

When I was really struggling in therapy and wasn't sure if T and I were on the right course, I asked him a lot about his experience in working with PTSD. I suddenly wondered if he had ever worked with survivors of CSA, and if he even knew what he was doing. He was able to reassure me by going over his work experience with me. Maybe you can talk to your T about her experiences in doing IFS therapy with clients with BPD?

This is my first time in therapy, but for me, healing has been a slow process. I wonder if you need to give yourself more time before you judge how the treatment is going??

to you. I'm sorry you're depressed.

Again, I'm not disagreeing, Preacher. But I did the same thing with my former T for 5 years because she said she had to treat me that way. I was miserable because she made me want more and more of what she couldn't give me. I was always trying to get her to say she cared about me, and she told me I was manipulating her when I called her just to get "a little support." Her method of treating my "inner adult" did not work. She admitted when I quit that she was sorry she hadn't solve my "attachment problem."

I had other Ts in the past who didn't believe in touching also. They were okay, but why am I still in therapy now? Since my T held my hand, I've been asking for more touching from my H, and have been more open to hugging friends.

But I see your point. I am terrified of my T dying or moving away, but I felt that way about all my Ts, no matter what their orientation. I attached to them all! I had to keep replacing them, which is my pattern.

It's a dilemma for me. Thanks for your input.

I wouldn't have had much success with your former T either, Rainbow. She sounds much too rigid in her approach -- too dismissive of the child parts who needed to be heard. My current T believes an attachment and some limited dependence (but not an unhealthy dependence) are necessary and he believes all parts, including child parts, need to be heard. But there is a difference between having a T who will speak to them and listen to them, and having a T who will also attempt to meet their need for the "good parent" who will provide unconditional love. I think they do need to be heard and accepted in therapy, and your former T would not allow that. It doesn't surprise me that her insistence upon treating the "inner adult" was met with so much resistance -- you can't heal by being forced to deny those parts of yourself.

Pecker, there seems to be a lot contridictions and going back on yourself in yoru posts in this thread. I get the feeling your still giving yourself a hard time for wanting someone to be there for you.

Rainbow, only some of what Poet said rings true for me, but it is usually that way with every post.

More later. Don't be depressed. BRB--have to take a kid to school!