New Development: Completely Unexpected

Internet may not be REAL life to you but it is to me. Don't disiguise your opinions as facts. "Being a pc member" is not -- for me -- at all like being behind a shield, nor do I feel as though I'm driving a cab. Plenty of people "meet" on line, and have relationships that turn into long friendships, and to downgrade these is, in my view, really pessimistic. I've "met" people online who have helped me write books, learn about new places, and I've met some of them face to face...and all of these combinations seem possible and "real."

And as for getting hurt, well, that's possible here, too. I know, because I feel somewhat hurt and rebuffed by your comments, ygrec. I was just trying to help you, as you have helped me.

Oh well. I'm sure I'll get over it. I always do.

An absolutely correct admonition on your part. I apologize for so doing. What I say goes for me, and is not to be taken as some universal judgment. It's irritating when people do that and I can well understand your feelings.

Fine. For you. For me, it's as described. On the internet I'm free. IRL I'm not. I'm only too happy for you that your situation is different and not like mine. But I think we're just chasing each other here. The internet offers great advantages to many, many people, regardless of how it's characterized or how it's used. For me, and perhaps for others in my situation, the internet is protective. For you, it's something different. And that's fine.

Well I certainly didn't mean to hurt you in any way at all. Difference of opinion, even if it results in contradiction, shouldn't be interpreted as intentionally hurtful or even negligently hurtful. My parents were sadly lacking in many respects, but they did make it clear at all times that disagreement is only the beginning of mutual adventure and exploration. Take care!

Indeed. and the adventure/exploration continues. I do like your style, and as you are fond of saying.... take care!

Wow what a lot of debate!

I wanted to say a couple of things, firstly as I feel more real being on here that I do in real life, what does that mean? Which is therefore more real? Me being real on the internet, or me not being real when dealing with people face to face? Hmm.

Secondly, I read from one of your posts Ygrec23 that you said sorry to disappoint us on here with "Is that all?" - I don't follow peoples posts to be nosey like some soap opera of will they won't they? - let's all vote now - I follow both for my own personal growth (I have learned so much from others on here), but also because I genuinely feel admiration and a sense of hope when I read that someone has taken a step forward - that would be the same if someone had a deep realisation about some traumatic abuse or finally discovered that oranges grow on trees - the content to me is not the important bit, but it is the way if makes someone feel and I get from your posts here, that this has had an impact on the way you feel and that is wonderful.

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat, Soup! Though I have to say that I think both on and off the internet are "real." In one environment (there) I feel very limited, tongue-tied, frightened. In the other (here) I can say what I think and feel without fear or favor, but with consideration and kindness. Neither is "more real" than the other. They simply have different advantages and disadvantages. I'm strongly hoping that in the near future things in what we call "IRL" will become for me more like they've always been for me on the internet.

I thank you very much. I'd just like to demonstrate to others that therapy can really pay off. That self-examination and exploration really are effective in the end. Can change your life entirely. For all kinds of reasons, originally explored by Freud himself and elaborated on by his successors, too many people give in to their internal promptings telling them to give up trying, to stop this nonsensical peering into their mental innards. It's only your unconscious telling you to lay off for its own entirely self-interested reasons. Therapy is worth the price of admission. I think it should be pursued with as much strength, intensity and seriousness as any individual can possibly muster. For many of us, there simply aren't any other options. Take care!

I have not found that I can say what I think and feel either here nor IRL. However, I have found that more and more of the time I can be mindful of what I think and feel, regardless. That did not use to be the case, and it is still not easy for me to make the distinction between thinking what I want and saying what I want. Not being free to say it is not the same as not being free to think it.

This is shown quite dramatically in a video that was linked to on another thread, the "Still Face Experiment". When the mother ignores the baby, he first gets upset and then completely falls apart. I empathized so completely with the baby that I knew exactly what he was feeling. I cried so hard I nearly had an asthma attack. It's amazing because the mother is not abusive or angry - her face is simply blank. And yes, I will be discussing this with T.

Here's the link again:

That's a shame, Pach. I'm sorry to hear it.

As in mindfulness meditation?

Don't quite understand. "Thinking" is personal, private, unheard by others. "Saying" (if you're not talking to yourself) is meant to communicate something to others. Not easy?

Agreed. Agreed very much.

Take care!

Thanks, Bunny. I'm going to keep that for future reference. I don't think I'm up to watching it right now. Take care.

To me, mindfulness and meditation are different things. Meditation might be a technique to help in being mindful, but mindfulness is just being aware of what your real thoughts and feelings are, without censorship.

As a child, I think not being able to talk about something is almost the same as not being able to think about it. In my case, anyway, I think I perceived that I could not even afford to think about many things, in case I slipped and let something I thought get expressed, and that was dangerous. So I learned not even to think about forbidden subjects.

Can you do that without therapy? I couldn't. I would think that getting rid of the censorship is exactly what therapy is all about, no?

Yes, yes, I agree. Particularly for very young children. And all of that was set up before memory, if not before language. But I don't comprehend how you could have known about that without therapy. I mean, that's what repression is all about: not thinking about forbidden subjects. There are all kinds of things that I couldn't let myself think about, but I only learned that recently, with T. I had no idea of any of this stuff until recently. Yeah, I read a lot of books. Big deal. Fat chance. It doesn't help. Take care!

Okay, sorry to fuss about this again, but that winky face DOES NOT fit right after that sentence about such a horrible thing. I'm not trying to be nit picky or give you a hard time, but just want to point out it's okay to use the purple frown face or the red angry face with us on PC. You don't have to put on a cheerful face for us.

Thank you for the encouragement. As I'm reaching middle age I'm sometimes feeling like it's not worth it to try to change much, or something like that. As if there's not enough time to go in a different direction, so I better stick with the program and not do some wierdo, difficult therapy crap. You inspired me to think about it more consciously at the moment, and I don't really believe what I just wrote. IDK, I don't want to understand my life as something that needs to be changed and fixed all the time, as if the way things are is never acceptable, but I don't want to stop changing either.

This relates to what you wrote about PC being an "after market repair shop"- creative phrase. I feel regretful sometimes, but I want to focus on the wonderful feelings of new discoveries that can let me feel better and let me help other people feel better, the way it sounds like you're doing, as much as I can.

Hi Ygrec, my family also, from the outside, looked like the perfect family. My mother was never abusive but she just wasn't capable of deep relationships with anyone. I sometimes felt my sibs, who were all adopted, were the lucky ones as they were in an orphanage and people who work in orphanages usually really love and care about babies and children. I do wonder if that is why my sibs are all more secure in their own skins than I am. sigh..

Thank you.

It's worth it, oh yes it's worth it. If you're living in constant pain and you want to get rid of that pain, then you do what you need to do. At any time of life. Particularly when you know that a route to pain-free living is really out there. I don't know why you threw in "...that needs to be changed and fixed all the time..." I know that a number of folks here have spent decades in therapy. I don't think I'm going to need that, by a long chalk. Nor do I think I'll need to redo my head again. So "all the time" seems strange to me.

Yeah. You understand this thing. A person is not infinite. If you're really serious, I think that like many others (not all) you can do what you need to do and then you're finished. And I think you can help other people. Take care.

ygrec, i am so happy for you. ever since you returned to pc i sensed a positive change/contentment in you. this was before your revalation recently. i'm so glad u shared this growth in therapy and you are ridding yourself of bondage for many repressed feelings. it is difficult at times but well worth the journey. i too find therapy has aided me in peeling the layers of the onion. no age is too late for that! anyway simply put, i'm glad you're here with us at pc.

Ygrec23 - I am so happy to read of your personal revelation and of the freedom and joy it is bringing you! In a sense, the iron curtain has finally fallen! Congratulations!

Thank you so much, madisgram, for such a gracious "welcome home." Yes, the rather tough and grueling five months I spent offline were worth every minute and I came out of it very much better than I went in. So now I've had these "insights," and it's time to try to "work them through." I understand from some other threads that for "working through" you're supposed to re-feel those terrible old feelings you felt at the beginning of the problem. And that's problematic for me. I'm really very good indeed at evading, avoiding and simply repressing bad feelings. And I can sense that I'm really, really afraid of getting into touch with those old things. Any ideas on how that can best be done? Take care!

Thank you very much, unhappyguy! But the war ain't over yet. Insight has to be followed by successful "working through," and for me at least that's just as much of an unknown country as my own infancy was six months ago. They say you have to get in touch with all those really bad feelings you had way back then, before you could talk, before you could think. I'm such a cognitive, left-brain person it's very hard for me to figure out how to do that. I've asked for advice, and I'll ask you too: How do you re-feel the feelings you've spent your life (and 75% of your energy) repressing in your personal dungeon? Take care!

I don't want to be Debbie Downer here, but the realization was, for me, easier than the repurcussions of an insight like your own, which I had ....it was a new development, completely unexpected, like your own.

The repurcussions came when I admitted that I had wasted a lot of years being fairly numb, and wasted a lot more making compensations for my wacky family of origin....enlisting in their lies, their denial systems, their assumptions about the world (being a fundamentally dangerous place), their assumptions about how to exist in the world (by working and achieving).

O the anger, the mis-steps, the collateral (sp?) damage. It was not pretty.

But I'm glad I'm doing it (I did not say DID it).

Take care!

You're by no means Debbie Downer! And, in a sense, I had "repercussions" like that even before I had this recent realization. I mean, just going into therapy when you're 65 means the game's almost over. And even if just in anticipation, I was very, very down with having so little of life left to me in the event I had a successful therapy. I spent 25 years in therapy previously! 25 Years! With 5 T's! All top-notch! With credentials out the wazoo!

And I do admit I got pretty close to being hospitalized for relatively long periods of time. And I figured out later that the reason nothing had happened was that they must all have concluded (without having told me or mine) that I was just too fragile to be "forced" into some kind of realization of my true state. It's called "supportive" therapy and it brings in big bucks, I'm sure. No one ever gave me the chance to just have my defenses torn away and see if I'd sink or swim.

Most of those statements are simply assumptions on my part. All I know is I got to the age of 65 just as screwed up as I'd been when I was 18. But if I understand you correctly I can honestly say that I've already been through that kind of regret and mourning and feel free right now to move on to a happier future. No question, feeling those feelings will be tough. That poor little baby. But I'll do it. I'll do anything I have to do. Without anesthesia. Whatever it takes.

WOW.....your commitment knocks me out. I feel as though I've been on the precipice for a long time...see sawing along and then, for some reason or another, I'm done with the anesthesia too. The numbness just aint working any more. yes, I'm older than your average PC member, too, in all likelihood (I aint telling!) I'm burning daylight!

For me, though, some supportive therapy is necessary otherwise I feel so swamped by the anger, regrets, and did I mention the anger? I need a therapist who can support me and give some steadiness or I feel that I will completely fall apart while facing some of these dark spaces, and yes, they're particularly about my mother, who failed to protect me during my early years....when my rage-a-holic father was on his otherworldly rampages -- violence, violence and violence....memories that I can take apart but only slowly. No wonder I'm angry sometimes. And sad!

I feel like I'm detonating a bomb, to be melodramatic. but in a sense, that's exactly what I'm doing....tick tick tick...
And I need others in my bomb squad, and for me, that means support.

But there are many ways to go about this...and go about it, I must!

Take care!

I also had that realization some 20 years ago and it made sense. Life relating to my mom has never gotten any easier, I just understand now. Have you and your T talked about attachment issues? The pre-verbal baby really needs a secure face to look at for reassurance. My mom has low vision and did not know people had facial expressions. She did not even realize that we were afraid of her and her face was confusing. Peace to you.

Well, maybe it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Maybe you can just start with small, cautious steps, always being gentle with yourself, with or without your T. You know yourself best so follow your own instincts as to how much you can take. I plowed through my pain and it was a long journey but it was worth it for me. Best of luck to you Ygrec and to everyone else who is on their journey--Terry

I'm not in constant pain, I have more moderate but ongoing depression. It's not that clear that there's something I "need to do." My therapist apparently doesn't think so either since he said he can't answer for me whether therapy is a good idea for me. I want to believe therapy could fix thoughts of suicide and being disliked, but it's not always clear if there really is something that could be changed, or if my issues are just normal problems in life. It is good for you that you're very clear on that, for yourself, that there is something you could fix and be finished with. My t said that he thinks therapy can be useful for everyone whenever they have the time in life to focus on it. So my t believes in a sort of endless self development, I guess. I think "whenever they have the time" is a roundabout way of saying when the depression is drawing one's attention instead of any more engaging things in life drawing one's attention. Kinda seems like one should try to push one's attention toward other things in life and try to become detached from therapy, but that also seems like it would defeat the purpose of therapy.

On the other hand, it is nice to think if therapy takes longer than one expects, it doesn't necessarily mean you haven't accomplished something you're supposed to accomplish, it could just be that you need support the same as anyone can use support from therapy.

wow learning...are we the same person?!