[Wysteria]

I started with this new DBT therapist about 6 weeks ago and have tried very, very hard to make it work. I have been open and honest and forthcoming. He allowed me to continue to work with my regular T and my regular T has been trying to help me stay open and keep trying and coaching me. It's just not working. He seems defensive, doesn't know what to do with me, shames me, and I'm afraid of him, and he creeps me out. I've dissociated and cried and shook and tried and tried to be patient and calm and forthright, and I just can't do it anymore. My skin just crawls going into his office, and I finally told T how bad it really was and have cried for two days.

I know 6 weeks may not seem like a long time to give a new T, but this skin crawling, freaked out reaction is just too strong to ignore for me. I've tried figuring out if there's some specific transference reaction going on but I just can't think of anyone he really reminds me of...it's just a gut reaction.

I feel like such a failure. I know T really wanted me to be able to make it work. He so wants me to be able to make connections with others, but at least does see WHY I'm so creeped out and why it's not working out and said I did try really hard. He mentors T's and when I relayed our discussions he could explain the DBT T's reactions, but they weren't appropriate and DEFINITELY not the responses that I needed. But it's not enough. I just can't get past that I couldn't work it out. I just feel like a freak. And I don't want to stop the DBT group which this guy leads. So I'm in a tight spot. I'm very depressed and don't know what to do...








.

[unaluna]

There was a creepy T in my DBT group. We had a lot of T's showing up for a month or so at a time. I finally googled him, and I don't know if he was afraid I was going to "out" him in group or what (which I would never do), he was always so nervous. It was a pretty straight group, I think. I don't know WHAT was wrong. I would have liked him personally, but I felt like that's what he was afraid of, so he was kind of awful towards me. I even wrote a letter of complaint (he made a really racially ignorant statement in one of his "scenarios"), so I guess it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. But the whole DBT scene creeped me out. They have such good info, but it's like they want you to ignore your past and your feelings. To me, the ideal therapy would be a psychodynamic DBT. There probably aren't a lot of other DBT choices around? I'm so sorry, Wysteria, this isn't you. It kinda makes sense a creepyish T needs the structure of DBT to "connect".

[ChristineEsq]

Hey Wysteria,

I just wanted to say that you are not alone in having your peace of mind thwarted by this type of persistent ambivalence. Even after a year since leaving therapy, I still cannot seem to reconcile my intuitive/intellectual reasoning about it/her with my emotional one. I can talk a blue streak about how inept and careless my T was, but emotionally, I turn it back on myself every time

As a borderline, I'm sure you're used to having your intuition and perceptive abilities questioned, but honestly, it's not for nothing that borderlines are considered to be the most highly perceptive sentient beings known to psychologists. I'd also suggest picking up a copy of "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker to help allay some of your self-doubt (if you need it). This book essentially teaches you that the easiest way to find yourself in a dangerous, if not life-threatening, situation is to dismiss/excuse away your gut instincts - they are your inborn self-defense mechanism. Ignoring them with a therapist is no wiser (or more noble) than ignoring them with a creepy stranger who offers you a lift in a bad part of town (for example).

De Becker (a former FBI profiler) emphasizes that you should pay particular attention to instinctual fear when it occurs in an ostensibly innocuous situation or with a seemingly harmless person. I think it's great that you listened to your intuition about this therapist and am glad that someone you trust validated it.

Gut instincts are very different from cognitive distortions, incidentally, yet there are still those who (inexplicably) continue to use and discuss them interchangeably. I think you should give yourself credit for appreciating the difference and, quite possibly, mitigating whatever damage your DBT therapist might've caused you.

The reason I feel so strongly about all of this, by the bye, is because I learned about "the gift of fear" two years before I was abducted with a family member and it absolutely saved our lives.

[Wysteria]

Thanks Christine and Hankster,

At least I don't feel quite so stupid and female right now. I really thought I had done everything that I was supposed to do. So, maybe T can help me fix this and will know what to do next. I looked at your link and was amazed at some of the articles Christine...thank you for sharing that. I'm really new to all of this and just learning. It's been a hard dx to accept fully and I'm still full of shame.

I'm so very sorry that you had to go through that experience and so very grateful that you both came out of it intact, although I'm sure there are hidden wounds that will take a lot of time to heal. That must have taken some quick thinking and major guts on your part to get out. You must be some kind of lady. Hankster, as always...your words always hit home with me. You seem to know me too well. There does seem to be some need for control/power something in the DBT T's I have met so far...can't quite explain it...just something niggling in the back of my neck...

I think I'm what they call a 'quiet borderline', and they may all be used to dealing with angry borderlines or something...so when I don't get angry or upset and blame myself instead..they lose it instead of me...and then I react strongly to their frustration and anger with me...I get scared..react..and then they get more frustrated and start shaming me, which I really react to...and then it all goes to hell. It's like they are only taught how to react to angry outbursts or negativity..and how to control people. I don't know..I'm probably projecting or generalizing or judgmentalizing or whatever its called. Just scares the crud out of me.

Take care you two and grateful hugs to both..

Wysteria Blue

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Wysteria

I feel like such a failure. I know T really wanted me to be able to make it work.

I always want my T to be proud of me, and never let her down.

I always assume she will be angry if I fail, but she ISN'T.

You made an honest effort and it's not your T's job to make you feel worse. I think you'll find your T will understand. I hope the response will be, "OK, that didn't work. We'll try something else."

Originally Posted by Wysteria

He seems defensive, doesn't know what to do with me, shames me, and I'm afraid of him, and he creeps me out. I've dissociated and cried and shook and tried and tried to be patient and calm and forthright, and I just can't do it anymore. My skin just crawls going into his office, and I finally told T how bad it really was and have cried for two days.

I admit that this may be a very, very dumb question-- but I wonder, could there be any value, as in any specific thing that you could learn, any skill you could develop, by continuing in therapy with this guy? If I understand correctly, you need to continue seeing him individually if you want to stay in the group?

Can you say to him, you are defensive and shaming and creepy? My instinct says that naming this outloud to him will take some of the punch out of those feelings. Maybe you could have a productive conversation with him about what is his and what is yours.

Also my thinking behind this-- these feelings, especially the creepiness, which is probably what makes you dissociate, are just that. He's not unsafe and the odds are greatly in your favor that he is not going to do anything creepy. Learning to sit with someone who creeps you out is not necessarily a bad thing to learn. Same with the shaming and defensive-- in my line of work, I run across a fair number of people, my own clients, opposing counsel, judges, etc, and I have had to learn to sit in the wind of their bullsh*t and work with them and let the bullsh*t flow around me.

I sense that maybe some of these feelings are historical, maybe it's just the situation of being pretty much forced to see this guy when you don't want to (that would probably set me off, even if he were Mary Poppins in the room), maybe it's some of who he is. But-- just speaking from my own experience here-- I would believe that these feelings have something to do with you and if you can sit there and try to understand them, you'll be a stronger and more enlightened person for it.

Of course, this may be utter bullsh*t and you should ignore it. Your call.

Anne

[Wysteria]

Hey Anne,

No, no..not bs in any way. That is what my T and I have been trying to do. He's been trying to coach me through the feelings and to stand up for myself and tell him how he is shaming me or what things make me uncomfortable. This has been very hard for me to do. Unfortunately I was very honest and open and vulnerable thinking he was safe because he was a T. Then realized he was not safe for me. As I began to say things he was terribly defensive or angry and would stop and turn on me.

For instance, he thought I made a comment that was very self-judgemental..about another girl in group being able to slow her thoughts down. I said no, it was more like a dream or a wish like this girl in a book he had me reading...I wish I could learn the buddhist techniques like her and slow my thoughts like her because mine never stop and go so fast. He stopped the discussion. Backed up. Frowned and then angrily asked me how he was supposed to help me. Like I had slapped him because I had disagreed with him?

Another time I said that my regular T had me do an assignment about emotions, and it seemed to show that I had a lot of fear and shame... He said yes, those seem to be strong emotions for me. Do you feel those in here. I was already teary-eyed. But answered honesty. Yes. He said, "well that makes me feel very bad and sad." I started really crying and apologized for making him feel bad. And he's like, "You told me to be honest with you"...like snidely. Yes, I had asked him to be honest with me. I didn't think he'd shame me with it. Instead of having a real discussion about why I feel afraid or ashamed...he stopped it with a guilt trip on me.

When I dissociated last week, instead of trying to connect with me or talk to me...he rolled AWAY from me over to his desk and got his phone to start chiming and started yelling at me and demanding that I return to the room/body. Scared the crap out of me and felt totally unsafe and body was vulnerable and went further away from my body than I ever have. It still freezes my heart to think of it. I can't think of almost anything scarier than him demanding that I look him in the eye and yelling at me when I was so intensly vulnerable.

I've been going over my discussions with him and my T keeps saying ok, well this is probably WHY he reacts this way..and I'm like ok..but it hurts me..and he's like yeah, it wasn't the right response for you. And finally I just said...I can't take it anymore...he makes my skin crawl and the religious paintings on the walls scare me, and I want someone who KNOWS how to respond to me already! I made the mistake assuming that a T would be safe and told him lots of stuff and answered everything very honestly..so I am very vulnerable to him....but when Thursday morning he again turned on me when I tried to talk to him...and angrily said "What do YOU think we should talk about.." and later again, "How do YOU think is should help you?"...I just broke inside...I don't know. He scared me and I just sat there and stared..and cried. His frustration is palpable. I cannot STAND to be yelled at/scathed at by men...been there done that have the T shirt. I just cannot do this in a safe zone.

So yes, I've been working very hard to try and stand up for myself and be patient and kind and do what T told me to try..but it's not working, and I'm not good with people, and I don't fit in or know what to do. I'm confused, and it hurts, and he scares me. I could never imagine him ever touching me or holding his fingers to connect like I do with T when I'm afraid. I'm trying honestly and trying even now to see if I can make myself continue...I just don't know. I don't hate him or anything..I just don't want to be vulnerable to him anymore. Does any of this make sense???? I sound like such a mouse and you are a lioness against all those judges and prosecutors and such...probably need to come and steep in your aura for a while lol.

Hugs and thanks for writing..

Wysteria Blue

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Wysteria

Another time I said that my regular T had me do an assignment about emotions, and it seemed to show that I had a lot of fear and shame... He said yes, those seem to be strong emotions for me. Do you feel those in here. I was already teary-eyed. But answered honesty. Yes. He said, "well that makes me feel very bad and sad." I started really crying and apologized for making him feel bad. And he's like, "You told me to be honest with you"...like snidely. Yes, I had asked him to be honest with me. I didn't think he'd shame me with it. Instead of having a real discussion about why I feel afraid or ashamed...he stopped it with a guilt trip on me.

WTF??? That MAKES HIM feel bad and sad??? this guy is the worst therapist ever. I am not kidding. my T would be thrilled if I actually felt something in session. okay, my T does sometimes say these exact same words, but not AT my feelings, it's at something that happened to me, and he's maybe showing me how a normal person would feel? OMG. I do not get this guy at all. Show your T this post you wrote. These are clear descriptions of gross incompetence. YOU are a better T than this goof.

And what is with the religious pictures? They have their place, but a T's office I don't think is the place. What did MCL's T say - if he's hurting you, YOU have the obligation to yourself to leave.

[peaches100]

Wysteria,

I'm so sorry you are going through a situation like this with this t. In reading what you wrote about how your conversations have gone with this t, my immediate reaction is that this is not a safe t for you. His reactions do not sound appropriate to me for a t. Instead of listening to what you say and trying to help YOU with it, he is personalizing what you say and concentrating on how it makes HIM feel. I think you should trust your instincts.

Originally Posted by Wysteria

I don't hate him or anything..I just don't want to be vulnerable to him anymore. Does any of this make sense???? I sound like such a mouse and you are a lioness against all those judges and prosecutors and such...probably need to come and steep in your aura for a while lol.

Hi Wysteria,

The problem isn't that you don't make sense-- you do. And I don't think you're a mouse, because I definitely see the inner lioness in you. I just think you need to let out your inner lioness more to help you feel as brave as you actually are.

It sounds that your regular T, when coaching you to stand up for yourself and just tell this @ss how you feel about what he says, doesn't think that you should quit.

I think that you feel unsafe, both by the dude and his wacky paintings, but isn't the reality that neither him nor his paintings are likely to jump you and physically harm you? And I wonder if the emotional pain you feel after your interactions with this guy is more a function of not being able to tell him to f*** off and can his shaming and bullsh*t statements and relate to you as a human being.

I just think, after having spent many years of my life running away in fear from situations that weren't objectively fearful, but where the fear was of my own internal doing, that I wish I'd been a lioness much earlier in my life. Acting and reacting in fear were just not healthy life choices for me, and they didn't lead me anywhere good.

It just seems to me that you're in an ideal place to learn to stand up for yourself in pretty much the safest possible space. You have the support and coaching of your own T to protect you from this guy. Where else would you have the opportunity to try to work on the issue of how you deal with a male @ss who says things to you that you don't like, and that don't help you? What other environment could possibly exist to teach you this skill of standing up for yourself? And, if I understand right, the additional benefit you get is being able to stay in the group that is working out well for you?

It's an opportunity for you-- to overcome your fears, to learn something incredibly valuable, to recognize and use the bravery that I know is inside you. I think you could go in there and kick this T's behind. Screw his icky paintings. Screw his judgmental attitude. Tell him what you think. I'll hop in your pocket and poke him with a tiny hot taser if he starts the bullsh*t with you.

Again, just my opinion. You are in a much better place to decide for yourself what's right for you.

Anne

[mcl6136]

Anne, You hit him low; I'll hit him low! You take the taser; I'll bring the pepper spray.

I could not agree more....

As much work and feeling as you, WB, have put into healing, you just don't need to stall now. I say, trust your instincts! The office pictures alone would creep me, to be totally frank...

I broke out in a rash reading what he said...I would have the very same reactions. This T really reminded me of my cold, distant T. We are here for you but you may have to move on, if that's possible. But don't let anything or anyone get in the way of your healing journey. And thanks for pic! MCL

[ChristineEsq]

Originally Posted by Wysteria

Thanks Christine and Hankster,

At least I don't feel quite so stupid and female right now. I really thought I had done everything that I was supposed to do. So, maybe T can help me fix this and will know what to do next. I looked at your link and was amazed at some of the articles Christine...thank you for sharing that. I'm really new to all of this and just learning. It's been a hard dx to accept fully and I'm still full of shame.

I'm so very sorry that you had to go through that experience and so very grateful that you both came out of it intact, although I'm sure there are hidden wounds that will take a lot of time to heal. That must have taken some quick thinking and major guts on your part to get out. You must be some kind of lady. Hankster, as always...your words always hit home with me. You seem to know me too well. There does seem to be some need for control/power something in the DBT T's I have met so far...can't quite explain it...just something niggling in the back of my neck...

I think I'm what they call a 'quiet borderline', and they may all be used to dealing with angry borderlines or something...so when I don't get angry or upset and blame myself instead..they lose it instead of me...and then I react strongly to their frustration and anger with me...I get scared..react..and then they get more frustrated and start shaming me, which I really react to...and then it all goes to hell. It's like they are only taught how to react to angry outbursts or negativity..and how to control people. I don't know..I'm probably projecting or generalizing or judgmentalizing or whatever its called. Just scares the crud out of me.

Take care you two and grateful hugs to both..

Wysteria Blue

Thank you for the kind words, Wysteria - especially for the comments about the posts on my site. It did take a bit of courage to write about the experience so openly, but without anyone else to really confide in about it, I probably would've just imploded otherwise. The borderline perspective on bad therapy is seriously underrepresented anyway and, from what I can tell, is somewhat shame-based (which is probably why you only ever find post-recovery accounts of the experience).

Speaking of shame though: I really wish you weren't feeling this way about your diagnosis. I know that it's easy to read about the stigma and clichés associated with BPD and suddenly feel like some sort of social pariah because of it, but keep in mind that there are many subtypes of BPD; in fact, recent studies have virtually stripped the nasty stigma of its reliability/credibility. Furthermore, the disorder is not your creation - you are paying for someone else's mistakes, my dear. The "shame" belongs to that person (or persons) and that's where it should stay.

Given that the diagnosis is relatively new to you, however, I was wondering if it might help to have a comprehensive BPD inventory that may give you some insight as to where you fall on the BPD continuum (if at all) and which characteristics best describe your psychic (and/or interpersonal) struggles. I have an excellent one if you'd like me to send it to you.

Also, since you see yourself as a "quiet, as-if" borderline, I thought I'd include a link to a brief, but informative, review of Cohen & Sherwood's book on the subject: http://dysfunctionalpsychotherapy.co...Revisited2.pdf

If nothing else, I hope you're feeling better today and have found some peace in your decision to discontinue work with your DBT T.

[CantExplain]

You may be seeing him worse than he really is (Cognitive Distortion).

However, it does sound like he is not the T for you.

If I were a T, I would keep all religious images out of my office. In fact, no pictures of people at all.

I might put up a picture from time to time. And if a patient got uncomfortable, I'd say, "There's something about this picture that bothers you? It's just an experiment. Tell you what: you tell me why you don't like it, and I'll take it down."

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Wysteria

At least I don't feel quite so stupid and female right now.

I thought someone else (ie a woman) would pick up on this, but they haven't.

What's so female about being stupid? And what's so stupid about being female?

Or is this something "a man could never understand"?

[unaluna]

Men! We "stupid females" understood perfectly and immediately exactly what she was saying. She was describing the effect on her of the T's misogynistic projective identification. It kinda happens alot?

While we're at it, (Did you wake up cranky this morning? Yes, I should have let her sleep!) Can we "crazy" people reclaim the word and use it whenever they want, as other groups have reclaimed their shaming words? My T tells me not to use the CR-word, which only makes me think he really DOES think I'm crazy, when I'm just using it in more of a 3 Stooges context. It's such a good word - are we really getting rid of it? New thread?

[tryingtobeme]

((((((Wysteria))))) If you do not feel comfortable which it sounds like you don't and are past the point of uncomfortable then I would not be seeing this T anymore. You won't get the help and progress you need if you can't get that comfortable setting with a T. I commend you for lasting 6 weeks. I would go to that T next time and tell them that you just can't come back. Be honest with them and tell them why. You have a right to feel comfortable with the person you are working with.

[Wysteria]

YEAH!! My T heard me very clearly and talked to DBT T a couple of times and decided that it was best if I just continue the group only!! DBT T tried to discourage this but T decided that for my safety that this was the best option for now...

Yes, I did say that...I felt "female" for being "foolish" enought to trust my instincts when reason said that T's should be safe...but T said that even T's can be unsafe or poorly equipped. That was hard for me to accept and kind of shook my world. And yes, I felt something like anger coming from him that scared me. Unfortunately, I will never know for sure, but I can live with that for now. Ya'll told me to trust my instincts which yes are a "more" predominantly female trait and I'm glad that mine were so strong and led me away from him... Most of all, I'm glad that I have a T that was willing to listen and validate those feelings and in the end agree that there was something off and that I was in an unsafe place for me.

Hugs to each and every one of you that helped me make this very difficult decision to leave a T and listen to those those niggling, hair on the back of my neck raising feelings and protect myself whether they were valid or not...

WB

[(JD)]

Don't blame yourself for trying something to help you heal. I, myself, have never been a fan of DBT, and never will be. Take care of yourself.

[Wysteria]

And yes, for all I try to be nice, don't mess with me before my coffee or CRANKY is not the word for it...lol

[unaluna]

oops sorry! -I meant, did cantexplain wake up crankyhanky this morning! I should quote my replies - but I am trying to FORCE the world to read the entire thread. megalomania, anyone?

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by Wysteria

YEAH!! My T heard me very clearly and talked to DBT T a couple of times and decided that it was best if I just continue the group only!! DBT T tried to discourage this but T decided that for my safety that this was the best option for now...

Yes, I did say that...I felt "female" for being "foolish" enought to trust my instincts when reason said that T's should be safe...but T said that even T's can be unsafe or poorly equipped. That was hard for me to accept and kind of shook my world. And yes, I felt something like anger coming from him that scared me. Unfortunately, I will never know for sure, but I can live with that for now. Ya'll told me to trust my instincts which yes are a "more" predominantly female trait and I'm glad that mine were so strong and led me away from him... Most of all, I'm glad that I have a T that was willing to listen and validate those feelings and in the end agree that there was something off and that I was in an unsafe place for me.

Hugs to each and every one of you that helped me make this very difficult decision to leave a T and listen to those those niggling, hair on the back of my neck raising feelings and protect myself whether they were valid or not...

WB

Yeah, it's really difficult. Especially when we take someone at their word, and really start to trust that yes, they have made a commitment to be a healer of some sort. It rocked my world to discover that this is not always the case, probably because I was ready to invest this person with all kinds of healing power.

but what if, let's just say, that the power to heal is more in our own hands? what, then, if we had that power, like a switch that we have yet learned to really turn on? What if we found therapists who could help us access that, and then we would have something to really take away from our these healing journeys. Then, we would reach a destination from which we could help ourselves as we help each other.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Wysteria

YEAH!! My T heard me very clearly and talked to DBT T a couple of times and decided that it was best if I just continue the group only!! DBT T tried to discourage this but T decided that for my safety that this was the best option for now...

A COUPLE of times?! So even your T couldn't believe what DBT-T was saying, he double-checked it to make sure he was getting it right, is how I read that. And still DBT-T was pressuring you. What a dufus. Your T sounded SO MUCH like my T (as in "mighty" - mine likes to sing, "Here I come, to save the day!" the Mighty Mouse cartoon song?) during your excellent session - makes you wonder, who has been holding back, us or them? Why didn't they "tell" us all this before? But I know it's us. It's so clear from your post, it's us. They wait for us. I know mine asks me - but I pull back, not him. I'm the one who doesn't "know". But it's not about knowing, is it.