[franki_j]

OK, so I know my parents are not perfect, but my T seems very set on criticizing them. The thing is, my dad was not a good parent to me growing up, and I am willing to admit that (my T says that he abused me, I am not willing to go that far). However, sometimes I feel like she is very harsh on my mom. Sometimes I will say something that she did, and T will frown and say "Wasn't that hurtful?" or something, basically I can tell she does not approve. I know that my mom is not perfect, but she is my mom and I love her. My mom and I have a very close relationship, so when T does this, most of the time I jump in and defend her.
It is weird though, because I also view T as a mother figure. I want her to hold me and tell me everything will be OK and sometimes I wonder what it would be like to have her as my mom, but then I also feel this need to defend my mom against my T, who I feel like is my second mother figure or something. Also I have looked T up online and I know that she is around my mother's age and has no kids. Sometimes I wonder if she is harsher on my mom b/c she has no kids of her own, or because she is my mom's age and feels like my mom or something. Or am I just projecting?
Like today, I was telling T about the time I told my mom I would not be going to law school and would be working at a club instead. And my mom was devastated and one of the things she said to me was "I used to be so proud of you." And my T looked at me and frowned and was like "She said that?" and then asked me if it hurt me, and I was like "Well what would you do if your daughter said that to you?" even though I know she doesn't have a daughter, but I guess I was just trying to make the point that it was a big blow to my mom. Also, I kind of wanted to see what she would say, like if she admit that she didn't have a daughter, but instead she didn't answer the question and asked me something else. Part of me likes that she is concerned, but another part of me feels this need to defend my mom. What does everyone think about this?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by franki_j

And my T looked at me and frowned and was like "She said that?" and then asked me if it hurt me... What does everyone think about this?

I think THIS is more what is meant by "blank slate", or what SHOULD be your therapist's blank slate, instead of her providing her obviously negative reaction and asking you a "leading" question about your feelings. There is being supportive, and then there is the T taking up all the space in the room with their own feelings, which is what this feels like to me. If my T says ANYTHING about my family, he ALWAYS apologizes first, literally, as in, "I'm sorry, but your family makes me so angry, the way they blah blah blah" (and this is after many years, and actually meeting my mother, and lots of work). Otherwise he keeps a pretty straight face, interested, sympathetic, but questions are more along the lines of the stereotypical "and how did that make you FEEEEEEL?" - he would never ask if I felt hurt, I don't think. He does ask if something, an accomplishment, felt good.

[Callmebj]

Hi franki, I imagine this is confusing to you. I hope you will stay with your T and after awhile it may mean you understand more. Mother's can hurt their children by remarks; but that does not mean they don't love them. I think you have to objectify your Mom to some extent, and realize her human state that saying "I use to be proud of you," had to be hurtful to a degree to you. I don't really see her as attacking your mother, she's pointing out that some of the things that's been said to you has been absorbed into your acceptance of who you are. They may be negative self beliefs created in an off hand manner by your mom..

I have a younger sister who denies my mother's cruelty. Me and my brother who readily admit she was one stone-cold bi__h. Protecting yourself right now is more important than protecting mom and dad. Good luck with your therapy. Hugs, bj

[franki_j]

Except my mom isn't cruel, she is, for the most part, a great mom. But I also love my T. But it does get somewhat confusing b/c hankster, like you said, she does ask a lot of times if I was hurt, or she will say "I bet that was hurtful" and start frowning and I can tell she disaproves. So then part of me feels like if I defend my mom I am going against T or something. Like one time my T got all irritated and disaproving at something my mom said and kept asking "Did she tell you why she said that?" over and over,and finally I just burst out with "I don't know why she said that." but T could tell I was irritated. Then the next session I felt that T was kind of colder towards me. I don't know if I am imagining it or not, but I felt that it was b/c I had gotten irritated with her and defensive about my mom. But I don't want T to feel like b/c I am defending my mom I don't appreciate and love my T. Does this make sense?

[unaluna]

this sounds like an opportunity for you to negotiate a little more emotional space for yourself, if that's what you want? I am terrible at this myself! I can't hang onto myself - at least not with people from my "old life". but you are good at identifying what you're feeling, and then describing it. I would tell T what you're telling us here. This is really what being in therapy is about - to work out these difficulties in communication. If you and T are not able to work this out to your satisfaction - if she keeps pulling this frowny face and "telling" you how to feel after you've discussed it with her? - then maybe find a more experienced T?

[SeaBreeze]

I would say that your T is trying to get you to establish and think about what YOUR feelings are regarding your mother's comments, how does it impact on you. In other words you can clearly see your Mother's point of view and opinion, hence how easy it is for you to defend her, but where is your view or opionion, how do you feel when your mother has said something particulary hurtful. You are separate from your mother but you only voice your mother's opinion not your own, do you know what that opinion is? T wants to hear your voice not your mothers. That's why you are there in therapy, its for you and your voice! Its hard to acknowledge that our parents can be complete idiots at times, they are not perfect, it doesn't mean we don't love them any less or that they don't love us any less!

Perhaps its easier to imagine the "mum attacks" to be coming from outside of you rather than inside?

[anilam]

Originally Posted by franki_j

Except my mom isn't cruel, she is, for the most part, a great mom. But I also love my T. But it does get somewhat confusing b/c hankster, like you said, she does ask a lot of times if I was hurt, or she will say "I bet that was hurtful" and start frowning and I can tell she disaproves. So then part of me feels like if I defend my mom I am going against T or something. Like one time my T got all irritated and disaproving at something my mom said and kept asking "Did she tell you why she said that?" over and over,and finally I just burst out with "I don't know why she said that." but T could tell I was irritated. Then the next session I felt that T was kind of colder towards me. I don't know if I am imagining it or not, but I felt that it was b/c I had gotten irritated with her and defensive about my mom. But I don't want T to feel like b/c I am defending my mom I don't appreciate and love my T. Does this make sense?

Reminds me of my childhood, after my parents divorce I kind of felt like I need to deserve their love by constantly putting the other parent down. I made jokes about my mother in front of my father and the other way round. Just to feel accepted and loved.

[Ygrec23]

It seems to me, franki, that SeaBreeze is right and that T is not necessarily "attacking" your mom, but rather trying to get you to think about your own feelings when these interactions occurred. I felt protective about my own mom, and still do, but I had to acknowledge that T was right when she pointed out the various things (very serious things) that mom had done wrong, with terrible consequences for her children.

T and I both agreed that mom had no choice in the matter. That she was operating unconsciously and didn't have the insight to understand and correct her own actions or inactions. So, together, T and I worked out a realistic portrait of mom from all the old memories I had that included mom doing wrong things but at the same time being sympathetic to her as a flawed human being who tried very hard to be a good mother but just didn't have the right tools to do it with.

I guess we all need to be able to try to see our parents as real people, with good points and bad points at the same time. Admitting to their bad points is by no means entirely condemning them. We all have good points and bad points. It's still possible to love and be sympathetic to a parent who really wasn't the world's greatest parent.

So when it comes to therapy, it sounds to me very much like your T is trying to get you to acknowledge that your mom did or said some things that probably weren't very helpful for you. And that by no stretch of the imagination means your mom was a "bad person." It means she was a regular, normal human being with faults and not perfect. That's all.

T and I are pretty much finished with my mom now. We're on to other things (my dad and my brother). But we left mom with the final judgment that she was a hard-working, intelligent, educated person with many friends and admirers (whom she deserved), who, because of bad things that happened when she herself was an infant, was not able to give her own children what they really needed. Did she know this? No. Could she have known this? Well, the way her personality was built, probably not. Did she try hard to be good? Absolutely. Was acknowledging these faults a condemnation of her? Not at all.

I'd suggest to you, franki, that you keep in mind the following: if you go through with T, in detail, the "truth" about your mom, you will be able to wind up in the end with a truly human picture of your mom showing her as an essentially good person with faults like everybody else. Just acknowledging that your mom wasn't perfect, that she did some things wrong, is not condemning her in toto, but accepting her humanity. Take care!

[Perna]

Originally Posted by franki_j

And my mom was devastated and one of the things she said to me was "I used to be so proud of you." And my T looked at me and frowned and was like "She said that?" and then asked me if it hurt me, and I was like "Well what would you do if your daughter said that to you?" even though I know she doesn't have a daughter, but I guess I was just trying to make the point that it was a big blow to my mom.

Your therapy is about you and how you feel; you turned the conversation by concentrating on how your mother felt, not how you felt to be seemingly told that your mother was not proud of you anymore, was only proud of you based on what you "do" and whether it is what she wants you to do or not.

You seem too dependent on your mom (and probably, she on you) and not enough on yourself. You have to become your own woman, your mother cannot do it for you. She is not your friend, she was supposed to nurture you and help you grow up to be a young woman with good self knowledge and self esteem but instead you are still looking to her for how to "be", a woman who is twice your age and does not need your defense, and she is still letting you instead of helping you become yourself and modelling good adult behavior.

[skeksi]

I empathize. Having T challenge our opinions of our families can be disorienting and frustrating. Think about what your T is saying (and why) and how you feel about it. Your T isn't saying your view of your family is wrong--just opening the door for there to be more feelings about them. You are conflicted when T suggests your mom's comments might be hurtful; part of you likes it and part of you wants to defend your mom. Maybe part of you is glad T is seeing that your mom can hurt you (maybe you even feel like T is protecting you in a way by saying that); but part of you wants to see your mom as faultless. All children feel this way to some degree! It's okay to have mixed feelings.

I needed my T to say critical things about my parents' behavior before I could. T wasn't attacking them or saying they were bad--just saying that their words and actions had impacted me, and not always in a good way. I have a better understanding of my family now, and it's not always "I am bad and wrong and mom and dad are good and right." There's a lot of grey and that's okay.

[ECHOES]

Defending is the word, and it is a defense.
When you admit something awful was said or done, and then say oh but these were wonderful parents, there is a gap.
The most wonderful parents aren't perfect and don't meet all needs. And some wonderful parents are more wonderful to those outside the family than to those within the family.

Defending our parents is something learned when we are young, when we are powerless and don't have any other perspective. It's a survival tool, and self-protective.

I don't think your therapist is disapproving of your doing this. I am sure she understands, yet she also wants you to be able to look at these things without that defense. To just look at how it affected you, your feelings about it that are the starting point of your defending.

"I feel crushed when my boss criticizes me harshly in front of others" is true and it is about how someone might really feel in that situation. That true response and feeling can be minimized and even denied by immediately jumping to "But he is a really good boss!". He may be a really good boss... AND... I feel crushed when he criticizes me harshly in front of others.
Both are true.

[franki_j]

Thank you everyone for you responses. I have thought a lot about them. Yes, it is hard for me when my T criticizes my mother because I am extremely close with my mom (I mean, I live a couple states away but we do text and calll each other often. I look up to her a lot.) I just can't help feeling sometimes that T is a little too critical, and I also can't help feeling it is because she doesn't have kids of her own. Although, like I said, part of me appreciates it. And I guess I should be looking at how my parents impacted who I am today (which is what my T seems to be hinting at and has even said a couple times). But part of me doesn't want to is very resistant to it. What skeksi said is true, that it is very disorienting and frustrating to have T criticize my parents, because that is how I feel when we talk about them: disoriented. It is very hard admitting to myself that they did some things that were not OK. Well, it is easier admitting that my dad wasn't a good parent, because he very obviously wasn't, but I think that put more pressure on my mom, which is also why I feel so close to her, because my dad was pretty absent.

[stopdog]

I think it is not unusual to want to defend one's mother against a therapist. First, there is the cliche about them always blaming the mother. Second some mothers who were not June Cleaver were also not Joan Crawford. Some of my friends had awful mothers, and when I hear stories I am aghast, but I am surprised to hear them (and that therapist) being aghast when I tell them about my mother. Things that seem so normal and not so bad have others reacting like I went through something awful - and I do not remember it that way. So when the t tells me my mother was cruel, I do not agree because it really does not feel cruel to me. That whole bit was just to let you know that I understand how odd it can be when they talk about your mother (and mine is even dead and I find it distressing to have her accused of having been mean).

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by franki_j

I just can't help feeling sometimes that T is a little too critical, and I also can't help feeling it is because she doesn't have kids of her own.

A lot of others have made good comments about making this about how YOU feel, not how your mom feels, but I did want to point out that harping on T's childlessness is really just another distraction from your own feelings. If I had to guess, what's going is that you feel really guilty about feeling anything negative about your mom, and this is a way to transfer that onto your T. I don't want to dwell on this point because it's personally extremely triggering for me right now, but I do think you know deep down that it's not a terribly good excuse to brush aside your T's concern about negative feelings you may have had around your mom. The concern, as it should be, is about you -- not your mom, not your T, and not your T's nonexistent kids.

This has been hard for me, too, and it's taken a long time for me to see that there's a difference between acknowledging hurtful things my mom has done and saying that she did something wrong or was a bad mother. My mom did plenty of things wrong, and some of those really hurt. My mom also did plenty of things right, and some of those hurt too. The point of therapy is to talk about my experience, and how all of that stuff shaped me. My therapist is male and 20 years younger than my mom, and I don't think that makes him less capable of working through those issues with me.

I don't blame your mom for saying "I used to be so proud of you." Putting myself in her shoes, I don't know, it might have come out of my mouth too. But I will say that when I read it, I was identifying with you at the time, and it hurt to read. I probably frowned visibly. And if it were me, I'd have been very upset. That's kind of the point -- her disappointment in you was meant to be palpable. If she just made you feel good about everything, she wouldn't be doing her job.

[unaluna]

and what I am trying to say is, even T is criticising franki for not doing the right thing - for not being mad enough at her mom. where is T's unconditional positive regard for franki? it is not T's job to show franki the only, approved, right way to feel - that was mother's job, wasn't it? (a little sarcasm there, yes). I can't believe NOBODY agreed with me!!! sheesh!!! I had to practically SQUEEEEEZE disapproval of my mother out of my T - I thought they wanted you to be able to see it for yourself - no hinting by frowning!

[ECHOES]

We can misread T's expressions and what they mean. I have learned that when my T frowns sometimes it is because she is in deep thought (I tell her "You're making that face again.. and we both smile ) or because she is seeing the difficulty I am having expressing myself.

To me, it didn't sound like franki's T is criticizing, just very curious about how franki.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by hankster

and what I am trying to say is, even T is criticising franki for not doing the right thing - for not being mad enough at her mom. where is T's unconditional positive regard for franki? it is not T's job to show franki the only, approved, right way to feel - that was mother's job, wasn't it? (a little sarcasm there, yes). I can't believe NOBODY agreed with me!!! sheesh!!! I had to practically SQUEEEEEZE disapproval of my mother out of my T - I thought they wanted you to be able to see it for yourself - no hinting by frowning!

Lol hankster, girl you know I usually agree with you! And I would here if I could see any evidence of Franki's T actually being critical. The best I can see is her "frown", which Franki says she "knows" means disapproval, but it's not clear to me how she knows. If she asked T, "Why are you frowning?" and T said "Because I disapprove," I could dig it. But as I and Echoes said, there are a lot of reasons people frown. My T sometimes does the same thing, and in his case it's an empathy frown. Actually, because I was often so out of touch with my negative feelings, his empathy frowns helped me realize that he was reflecting how I felt inside, that I was burying out of shame or guilt or whatever. Not always. But a lot of the time.

All I see is T saying, "That must have hurt," which my T also says sometimes. If it did, I might say "Yeah, that did hurt." If it didn't, I might say, "Well, no, not at the time, because..." And if I was burying the feelings so well I couldn't even feel them I might say, "I don't know." I also see her T saying, "Why might your mom have said that?" which my T also asks out of genuine curiosity, and my answer is often, but not always, "She was just trying to protect me." Seeing things from my mom's perspective has actually helped clarify a lot of things for me... it's helped me acknowledge my own hurt, but also be forgiving of her for any hurt she caused. There's no overt criticism in any of those questions... that Franki perceives criticism says more about her than it does about T, who is just asking, "How does that make you feel?" Without that question, what is a T to do??

In fact, it's Franki who's trying to squeeze something out of her T. She openly says she was trying to get her T to admit to not having kids, which is pretty manipulative and, to be honest, pretty cold. I know women who chose not to have kids and have been happy with that decision, but I have also known women who don't have kids because of miscarriage/stillbirth, failed marriages/partnerships, infertility, difficulty adopting, SIDS, etc. The sorrow they carry has lasted, for some, well past menopause, and trying to get one of them to admit they don't have kids to prove a point seems pretty harsh (I'm assuming Franki doesn't know why T is childless, and so these could be one of the reasons). And the thing is, Franki does NOT sound like the cold, manipulative type -- quite the opposite. I imagine if she did finally succeed in getting T to say, "Yes, you're right, I don't have kids," and that was followed by, "I had three miscarriages and a stillbirth, and after that I just gave up," I don't think Franki would be doing any victory laps. So anytime we do something out of character, I think it's extremely important to examine. Beyond just the fact that these questions are about T, not Franki's own emotions, which should be the real focus.

[unaluna]

looking back over this thread, I am surprised to find I answered twice in a row - that's not like me. this was my birthday weekend, which means I was fending off calls from the darkside - "you should be glad you're still ALIVE at age 60!" - that's a cheery greeting! JOKE! see how that works? can I get a frown and a "that must have hurt" amen. At least my T told me he was glad I'd been born, which he said was kind of the point of celebrating birthdays.

So franki - my T's for YEARS, literally DECADES, told me to stop the contact with my mother if I wanted to make progress in therapy, and that was in the years before cellphones made instant, constant contact possible. Maybe not just you, but I wonder what this means for the future? I mean, my mother was STARTING to call me all the time, but I couldn't take it, I started having anxiety attacks.

[ECHOES]

that must have hurt, Hankster! you can even get a

or I could defend your friends, who I'm sure are wonderful folks...

[unaluna]

that was no friend, that was my mother!

(there's an old joke, Q: who was that lady I saw you with last night? A: that was no lady, that was my wife!)

but weird, huh? like i'm supposed to feel guilty just for being alive? I think it's her issue, and she's been laying it on me my whole life. but now I have the voicemail to prove it.

[franki_j]

Wow so I don't really know what to say from all the responses. Well, I guess I will start with the one from Sally Brown about me being cold when trying to get my T to admit that she doesn't have any kids. This one kind of hurt. I was trying to get my T to admit this because honestly, I want her to show some sort of emotion or disclose something. Not that she doesn't show emotion, but she never discloses about herself. I guess I just wanted her to admit something and show some sort of vulnerability.

Anyways, I know that my T does not approve of some things my mom has done; I have been seeing her long enough to know this. And some of the things I have told her about my mom do sound bad if I look at them objectively, but sometimes I do think that T is exagerrating things. Although I am noticing now, maybe with the help of therapy, that my mom has/is influencing me with things like my future career choices. I am thinking of going to school for social work and my mom, who is a doctor, immediately sounded very disapointed and told me that she looks down on social workers. She did not want me to go to school for that, even if that is what I wanted. In the past, I think that maybe I would not have even thought about a social work MA b/c of my mom's elitist attitude, but now I am trying to look past that and at what I want. And I know if I tell my T this, about the conversation with my mom, then she will act disaproving of her, which I suppose is fair because it's not exactly a supportive response. But I still hate telling T these things because of her frowny/disaproving reaction of my mom.
Edit: It is just hard sharing things about my mom with my T that I know are not exactly the most flattering b/c I know what her reaction will be. And then sometimes I will say things that I didn't think were hurtful but she does (i.e. the "I used to be so proud" comment) and T will frown, and then I will be thinking that she is being too harsh on my mom. It's just hard b/c I can kind of tell that T doesn't really approve of my parents, which include my mom, and so I feel badly telling her non flattering things about them b/c then I am only reinforcing that opinion.

[Sannah]

Hi Franki, are you going to talk to your therapist about this?

You aren't in therapy because you had a perfect mom.

[franki_j]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Hi Franki, are you going to talk to your therapist about this?

You aren't in therapy because you had a perfect mom.

Well, I emailed her and told her I would like to start session off talking about my family, b/c usually I only get up the courage/feel comfortable to talk about it at the end of session when we only have a couple minutes left, so this time I will have to talk about it b/c I specifically told her I wanted to. Although I don't think I will be talking about my mom as much, mainly my dad, because he is a much bigger set of problems. It is easier for me to criticize him b/c he was so obviously not a good parent to me.