[Chopin99]

I'm going to post my session in bits and pieces because I'm having a hard time processing and my work schedule is going to be hectic today. I'm going to try to relay my session chronologically. In my opinion, attitude and actions were more important in the beginning and at the end. Words were more important in the middle of the session. I did receive some truth during the session.

I talked about my session with my H, who is the most logical person I know. I sent T an email after my last session, telling her how I perceived the session and asked her for an extra appointment. I read the email to H and he said that while she could have taken it critically, her reaction was disproportionate. It was not manipulative. I followed my pattern of assuming the worst, but once again, H stated that the reaction was inappropriate and if he ever needed therapy, he would not be able to work with her.

The biggest issue following this session is that I can't decide if T is too personally involved in my case, has something significant going on in her personal life that's affecting her work, or if she is just plain bat-s**t crazy right now for whatever reason. I would appreciate any feedback you can give!

I sat down in the waiting room and she came around the corner and loudly said my name. She didn't look at me as I entered her office and ignored me for a full minute fiddling with something at her desk before sitting down in her chair. This conversation commenced:

T: So?
Me: So...what?
T: *Silently glares at me.*
Me: Are you referring to my email?
T: Yes. How do you feel about it today?
Me: I don't care (she did not allow me to speak after these words).

She exploded: "Well fine then. That's your choice. If you don't care about it anymore, there's certainly nothing I can do about it." She positioned herself in her chair somewhat sideways, crossed her arms, turned her head slightly toward me, narrowed her eyes, and glared at me breathing heavily.

She was angry. While she was sitting there, her face turned red, a vein on her forehead popped out, and she began to break out in red splotches on her face and neck. I had never seen her react this way and it frightened me. I didn't know what to do. I worried that the next thing that was going to come out of her mouth was going to be, "get out...I'm done with you."

Thankfully, she did not, but instead began to scold me like a child (speaking very quickly in a raised voice). "You're just following your typical pattern. Either I'm the best thing in the world or I don't mean anything to you. When are you ever going to learn not to react that way? Either things are wonderful or they're crap. Well you know what, life sucks sometimes and that's never going to change!"

Woah. In my email, I never said that she didn't mean anything to me. I stated that I perceived her last session as aloof and distant. I also said I knew it may not have been about me. It was also not the reason why I said, "I don't care."

Finally, I said (calmly but firmly), "T, please let me finish my sentence. 'I don't care' wasn't the entirety of it. I want to tell you why I don't care. I think you've misunderstood me. I don't care about the email anymore because I got past it. I did have to numb my feelings somewhat to do so, but I moved on. In fact, by yesterday, I was enjoying the change in my job. I was working with my old clients again. I've missed them. I realized also that through this therapy process, I've learned confidence. I was able to look my soon-to-be-employees in the eye and tell them what I expect and what they need to expect from me."

I will continue this later as I need to get ready for work. I appreciate any and all opinions. I also understand if people would like to hear about the whole session before replying. Thank you, PC friends.

[BashfulBear]

Woah, I'm sorry that happened, Chopin! I'm afraid I don't really have much of anything to add right now, but you definitely seem to have handled it well. I know if that had been me, I would've either; panicked and froze up (physically and verbally), burst out crying, or even have walked out to get away, get some air, and put some distance between us...

[LoneWolfie]

Hi Chopin

Well something was/is in her craw and it my have nothing to with you. I'm sorry that she treated you in such an unprofessional way. Guess the thing to keep in mind is that T's have lives of their own and their own problems but they sure as hell shouldn't be taking it out on clients either.

You will obviously have to have a discussion with her at your next appointment and by then she will have calmed down. It won't be easy but I think she owes you an apology.

Take care of yourself.

[rainbow8]

I think your T misunderstood your "I don't care" as defensive and threatening to her, that her reaction was countertransference and she should have been able to control it. But I want to hear what happened next. I'm sorry this happened. I'm glad you have a busy day to get your mind off T for a while.

[unaluna]

"When are you going to learn that sometimes life sucks?" Who is she talking to, really? Cuz she didn't learn THAT in therapy school. Unless she studied under Albert Ellis. Even so, given your job, I think you know it and are aware of It more and better than anyone.

[WikidPissah]

That's harsh, and I am sorry that you were hurt. I love you tons girlie, and I feel bad when I watch you go thru these extreme emotions with your t.

I remember the boundary thing going back a while with you. So, I looked out of curiosity, and right about this time last year you were banging your head because you didn't know if you were her favorite or not (when you fixed her bracelet). That is really important to you. It can't be simply professional, it is either you are her fav, or she doesn't care. (she's the best t in the world, or she's bat sh i t crazy).

There's a middle ground Chopin. She really hasn't been steady enough with her boundaries, but she would have to be fort Knox ...I think you require firmer boundaries than most (so do I) (it's because of your intelligence). She's a t. She doesn't have to be your bff to help you. She doesn't have to be enthralled with you to care. You don't need to tug at her heartstrings to get her attention, you've paid for it already.

True maternal love is neither manipulated nor bought, it just is. I am so sorry that your mother didn't show you that.

So far my 2 cents... she did take the email personally, T's are human and you two are close. Is it possible that all the turmoil with your job right now caused the email to sound more critical then inquisitive about the last session? I have a way of thinking something is wrong with others when something is wrong with me, just a thought. I hope you both can revisit this session and the email and get past this. ((((((Chopin)))))))

[Syra]

I had something similar happen to me. My T took something I said and turned it in to way more than I said, got defensive, then judgmental and blaming towards me. I was so attached to her I continued for three months to try and work things out. (there were some good things in the three months). Eventually she told me she needed a break. I was stunned and hurt, but thought I would go back after a little while, but things never worked out.

I think they never worked out because I think there were some very wrong things going on - and things I couldn't see until I was at a distance, as I was too attached to see things. I think something had triggered her that she wasn't owning, and probably didn't recognize. She didn't own them and recognize them because she's human, among other reasons. But it's also become apparent to me that if I had return to her for therapy, I would have had to shut down part of myself that triggered her until she dealt with her stuff. Despite being so attached that I couldn't see some things, I'm glad I had enough of myself left that I wouldn't cross certain boundaries (like say I was wrong when I didn't think I was. or let her put words in my mouth and accept them). And it was that integrity I had with myself that I think eventually precipitated the "break" which eventually she ended with a "Dear John" letter.

I'm with a new therapist now and the break turned out to be a very good thing, although incredibly difficult.

I can accept that T's are human and make mistakes. But if their mistakes and weaknesses impact my therapy in a detrimental manner, then it's time for me to change. I think if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have tried so long and hard to work things out, but I would still try to work things out. What I love MOST about my new therapist is how incredibly easy it is to talk about problems between him and me. He's very open and not defensive. It allows more of me to be present and I see more of myself than if I had to work harder to resolve things (like I did with the previous one). I've learned that for me, if I have problems again, the important thing is not that the T may have messed up, it's whether we can talk honestly about what happened, and what is mine, and what is his (without actually spending time on his stuff in my session, just him owning it so it can get past it).

[Chopin99]

Thanks for the replies!

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

That's harsh, and I am sorry that you were hurt. I love you tons girlie, and I feel bad when I watch you go thru these extreme emotions with your t.

I remember the boundary thing going back a while with you. So, I looked out of curiosity, and right about this time last year you were banging your head because you didn't know if you were her favorite or not (when you fixed her bracelet). That is really important to you. It can't be simply professional, it is either you are her fav, or she doesn't care. (she's the best t in the world, or she's bat sh i t crazy).

There's a middle ground Chopin. She really hasn't been steady enough with her boundaries, but she would have to be fort Knox ...I think you require firmer boundaries than most (so do I) (it's because of your intelligence). She's a t. She doesn't have to be your bff to help you. She doesn't have to be enthralled with you to care. You don't need to tug at her heartstrings to get her attention, you've paid for it already.

True maternal love is neither manipulated nor bought, it just is. I am so sorry that your mother didn't show you that.

This is thought-provoking, Wiki, and that's what I like. You will see as I write more about my session, some of this came out, but not Fort Knox status. I have stated to my H in the past that maybe she needed to place more restrictive boundaries on me, but he maintains that I need those flexible boundaries or I would just quit therapy. I think he's right. My two previous T's boundaries were flexible and I made significant progress with both T's. For example, my last T said that a session wasn't over until it was over. I usually had 5 pm sessions scheduled and didn't get called back until anywhere from 5:15-5:45. I didn't mind because she gave me the same courtesy. We usually ran 5-15 min over time.

I have no idea (thus far) why I want to be a favorite. IRL, I don't strive to be anyone's favorite. I know she doesn't have to be my BFF, be enthralled with me, or need her heartstrings tugged at for her to love me or help me. Thing is, she has acted like a BFF, been enthralled, and allowed her heartstrings to be tugged. I think it's for all these reasons that she was actually hurt by my email and subsequent reaction.

Chopin, I was thinking about your experience, and several other people's experiences with their T's changing boundaries. I know that others may disagree, but I do not think changing boundaries as therapy progresses is per se a bad thing. The problem is when your T does it abruptly, angrily or without explanation.

I have rehabbed a number of abused animals. There are things that I will tolerate from an abused animal in the beginning, that I will not tolerate later in training. There is a trainer I really admire, and this is a quote from him: "On a green horse, one that's kind of troubled, I might let them cuddle up to me because it's not a disrespect, they're looking for some support and comfort. But then gradually I know part of the process is that I put him back on the end of the led rope and say, see if you can stay out there and still feel my comfort from out there. But I won't ask him to stay for long. I work my way toward everything I get in small increments, a little bit at a time."

So, your T has let you cuddle, figuratively and literally. Your therapy has progressed and she's trying to get you further away on the lead rope. She's doing it too quickly and with too much emotion. Maybe framing the discussion this way with her next time might be productive for you both?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Finally, I said (calmly but firmly), "T, please let me finish my sentence.

That's the way!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by hankster

"When are you going to learn that sometimes life sucks?" Who is she talking to, really? Cuz she didn't learn THAT in therapy school. Unless she studied under Albert Ellis. Even so, given your job, I think you know it and are aware of It more and better than anyone.

Jung said it better: "So you're in the soup too?"

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

There's a middle ground Chopin.

True, but it can take years of therapy to find it.

Also, I think it is T's job to stand in the middle ground and invite the patient to join her there. No shoving allowed!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

My two previous T's boundaries were flexible and I made significant progress with both T's. For example, my last T said that a session wasn't over until it was over. I usually had 5 pm sessions scheduled and didn't get called back until anywhere from 5:15-5:45. I didn't mind because she gave me the same courtesy. We usually ran 5-15 min over time.

My T is strict about start and end times, but she's always been strict about that, so it doesn't bother me.

CE, different people can require different things to find that middle ground. Using my kids as an example, I could correct my daughter with a quiet, "Sweetie, don't do that." I never even had to say "No" to her. With my son, it took, "You QUIT that right this minute. STOP. NOW." With my horses, I had one that I could not raise my voice to without reducing her to a quivering puddle. With another, I had to literally beat on her with a lead rope to keep her from running me over.

Not everyone can be invited into the middle ground and have it work. Some people can get there is a gentle, 'please stop doing that.' Others are going to need to figuratively get shoved. At least that's what I think. Every person is different and will require different things if they are actually going to learn the lesson and learn to do things differently. If the T just keeps standing there, inviting, and it's not working, and the T never tries anything new and different, you end up being one of those people who is in therapy for years and years without making any significant changes.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

I have no idea (thus far) why I want to be a favorite. IRL, I don't strive to be anyone's favorite.

This makes perfect sense to me.

I was raised by an inadequate mother.
I spent much of my life subconsciously looking for a substitute.
But I only needed one mother, so I only latched on to one woman at a time.

Now I have a T-mother and that fills the need.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Chopin, I was thinking about your experience, and several other people's experiences with their T's changing boundaries. I know that others may disagree, but I do not think changing boundaries as therapy progresses is per se a bad thing. The problem is when your T does it abruptly, angrily or without explanation.

I have rehabbed a number of abused animals. There are things that I will tolerate from an abused animal in the beginning, that I will not tolerate later in training. There is a trainer I really admire, and this is a quote from him: "On a green horse, one that's kind of troubled, I might let them cuddle up to me because it's not a disrespect, they're looking for some support and comfort. But then gradually I know part of the process is that I put him back on the end of the led rope and say, see if you can stay out there and still feel my comfort from out there. But I won't ask him to stay for long. I work my way toward everything I get in small increments, a little bit at a time."

So, your T has let you cuddle, figuratively and literally. Your therapy has progressed and she's trying to get you further away on the lead rope. She's doing it too quickly and with too much emotion. Maybe framing the discussion this way with her next time might be productive for you both?

Thank you...this "different thinking" is exactly what I want.

I know therapy will end one day. I want it to end. I want it to end when I find healing. Whether realistic or not, T promised me I would find complete healing. I expected that as I gain skills, increase confidence in my learned skills, and deal with past wounds, that T would gradually pull away. It's natural. It's how children are supposed to be raised IMO. Your allegory resonates with me.

If I'm indeed being pushed out of the nest (which T insisted she was not doing), my own allegory would be with child raising. I feel as if I am 12 years old. I have received wonderful parenting up until this point. Then, I am kicked out of the house and told I have to get a job and find a place to live on my own. I do change better if it's gradual. I'm 12, teach me the skills to get a job and find a place to live because that's what I want to do one day. I'll get a job at 15 or 16 and move out when I'm 18.

True story: my dad thought he could teach me how to swim by throwing me in the Intracoastal Waterway (with a life preserver) at age 2. That didn't go over very well. As far as I knew, I was terrified of water. Any subsequent attempts at teaching me how to swim as a child terrified me and I resisted. When I was 18, I decided I was going to learn how to swim because I did not want to be afraid of water anymore. Two patient friends taught me how to swim over several weeks. Gradually. Now I am not afraid of water and I can swim enough to keep myself alive.

I realize that if I stay with T, I'm going to have to put up with a few of her issues/quirks. From what she tells me, she is WAY over-involved in her 26-year-old daughter's life. T's story and my story parallel in many areas. I asked her one time if I reminded her of herself at a younger age. Her answer was, "I don't know." I know she cares deeply about me. There are times she has gone over and above what she needed to do to help me. Hopefully, we can get on the same page.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

CE, different people can require different things to find that middle ground. Using my kids as an example, I could correct my daughter with a quiet, "Sweetie, don't do that." I never even had to say "No" to her. With my son, it took, "You QUIT that right this minute. STOP. NOW." With my horses, I had one that I could not raise my voice to without reducing her to a quivering puddle. With another, I had to literally beat on her with a lead rope to keep her from running me over.

Not everyone can be invited into the middle ground and have it work. Some people can get there is a gentle, 'please stop doing that.' Others are going to need to figuratively get shoved. At least that's what I think. Every person is different and will require different things if they are actually going to learn the lesson and learn to do things differently. If the T just keeps standing there, inviting, and it's not working, and the T never tries anything new and different, you end up being one of those people who is in therapy for years and years without making any significant changes.

Good point. I am in therapy to change. T essentially getting mad and yelling at me does not work. My mother tried it for 23.5 years and it drove me away. It isn't going to work for T either. I'm going to resist or I'm going to leave. If this is a "technique" (which she said it was not later in session...I asked), it is one that simply will not work. I will no longer allow anyone to treat me that way; H said I don't need to let her do it either.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Thanks for the replies!
I have no idea (thus far) why I want to be a favorite. IRL, I don't strive to be anyone's favorite. I know she doesn't have to be my BFF, be enthralled with me, or need her heartstrings tugged at for her to love me or help me. Thing is, she has acted like a BFF, been enthralled, and allowed her heartstrings to be tugged. I think it's for all these reasons that she was actually hurt by my email and subsequent reaction.

This is sounding more and more famliar. I didnt' think I was a favorite, but I thought I was special along with several others. She did lower boundaries for me. She did seem to be very maternal towards me. She rescued me at times, I think. Sometimes I wonder if the fact that she did these things for me led her to expect a certain level of compliance that I couldn't give. I don't know. That's not what she said. But she was trying to get me to be more compliant with her thinking, and when I couldn't do that things started falling apart. I can only see this in retrospect, and I don't know the whole story because she hasn't told her side of it - she just asked for a break and several months later sent me a Dear John letter. I believe she was really regretful. I don't believe she has owned, and probalby recognized, her part in it So that's just my speculation.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

This makes perfect sense to me.

I was raised by an inadequate mother.
I spent much of my life subconsciously looking for a substitute.
But I only needed one mother, so I only latched on to one woman at a time.

Now I have a T-mother and that fills the need.

I don't want T to be my mother in any other way than symbolic, a mother-figure of sorts. I don't want to be in therapy forever. I want to be raised up well and then forge out on my own. I don't want to be thrown out of the nest, but I don't want to be a baby forever either. I need to move on, but as an adult and a therapy client, I want to have some say in the pace I'm going. This isn't my first rodeo, so to speak. I was allowed to progress in my first two rounds of therapy at my own pace and both were successful.

But T has her own concept of "control".

[Chopin99]

You know, certain things will become clearer as I write more about the session. All you guys have is the first 15 minutes. It was a full hour.

Will be interested to see what else you post... It's hard to say, but you know, I feel like I see some parallels with what has gone on in my own therapy and the problems me and T have been having. Sudden abrupt boundary switches, T taking things personally...

I am close with my T, too, and I too wondered if getting 'too close' was the problem - or, rather, the feeling that T had found herself too emotionally involved, and the subsequent hasty backing off and overcompensation with suddenly giving me the 'tough love' approach. Yikes.

My T at one point said something about having 'took the training wheels off too soon'... I'm unclear as to whether the 'taking off of the training wheels' was actually intentional or not on her part (complex situation, this wasn't the whole/only issue, and I only know my side of it for the most part) ... and it's tricky, because yes, we do need to be encouraged to 'leave the nest' and 'learn to fly' and go out into the world on our own.. but, at least for me - having issues with trust, fear of abandonment, hypervigilence over rejection - feeling that was T pulling back/pushing me away sparked a downward spiral. I don't feel I was in a stable enough place for that, I'd only just begun to feel safe and secure. Like you, I've wanted (needed?) to feel like it's okay to need T - at least for the time being. I've wanted to be able to relax into the connection, know it's still there - know SHE is still there. I thought the idea was strike out on our own when we've had time to build the confidence and resources? I guess at some point/in some cases the T may need to start nudging, pushing...

It's tough trying to figure it out in these situations... whether it's T having some issues of their own in their personal life, or some issues with countertransference in sessions, whether they are too involved emotionally and there are some boundary issues, or whether it's an issue of misjudgement or miscalculation of what a client can tolerate at a given time... Any/all of the above and then some?! I think whatever the crux of it is, it reveals that the other person in the room is human too. The last couple months or so in therapy have been tough for me to ride out, it's a heck of a tangled web, but I guess that's what makes the bond between therapist and client so important, making it possible to hang on through the rough times. At times I've been frustrated with my T as a therapist, with her human mistakes - but I feel that it's my being able to see her 'human side' that's also kept us going and able to continue in therapy. As painful as all the emotional stuff can be, I feel like it would be worse to have a therapist with whom such depth of emotions didn't get stirred up - and to what level would that be 'therapy'?

Incoherant musings? Am I projecting?! I don't know how much of this is or isn't relevant to your situation..

Failsafe:

[Nightlight]

Originally Posted by just_some_girl

Incoherant musings? Am I projecting?! I don't know how much of this is or isn't relevant to your situation..

Well, you've at least described my exact experience over the past month and a bit. I too felt like I needed the relationship, I needed to fully rely on it as stable, and T as somewhere out there for me, before I'd be ready to let go. Suddenly she's backed off. It started with anger so much like you're describing Chopin, too. Every answer I gave was wrong and I was accused of not trying, T expects better of me after four years, and so on. All said with a very raised voice.

I think T has reassessed her own boundaries. She told me something she did for me was too friend like, yet I've never confused it in my head as being friend like. She's told me recently that she's exhausted and needs a break too. I'm really not sure what I could have done differently though, to get through the sudden changes more smoothly. Some of the things that were said were so harsh. Then she started to forget big things about me, even though we've always had what I thought to be a close relationship. She started to compare me to other clients in explanation to why she forgot things. I don't think I did anything wrong enough to justify the level of anger that was directed towards me (and the awful emotions I went through as a result).

Chopin, it does sounds like your T is reassessing her boundaries, but she didn't really do it in a fair way. It's seems to be something she has wavered on before, the email stuff? The sudden anger wasn't really the way to gradually go about it though, if she wanted to change something about it. That wasn't really fair at all, but they're human and make mistakes too, when they get frustrated. And in the end, after all the awful things that were said to me, I think I've always actually been helped the most by someone who has been willing to give me a real relationship, even by showing her true feelings, such as anger and disappointment.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

The biggest issue following this session is that I can't decide if T is too personally involved in my case, has something significant going on in her personal life that's affecting her work, or if she is just plain bat-s**t crazy right now for whatever reason. I would appreciate any feedback you can give!

My feedback is the biggest issue about your therapy probably shouldn't be about your T. I'm not sure what this means, but it may or may not have something to do with you focusing on her rather than yourself.

I also think your title is interesting. My first reaction, yeah, so? Your T acts different from session to session, she's not a robot or a machine or the therapeutic equivalent of a stepford wife?

Shouldn't this be about understanding you-- your behavior, your feelings. This was an interaction, and you are somewhere in the midst of it.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Good point. I am in therapy to change. T essentially getting mad and yelling at me does not work. My mother tried it for 23.5 years and it drove me away. It isn't going to work for T either. I'm going to resist or I'm going to leave. If this is a "technique" (which she said it was not later in session...I asked), it is one that simply will not work. I will no longer allow anyone to treat me that way; H said I don't need to let her do it either.

What's wrong with an honest show of anger, as long as it isn't abusive? Raising one's voice and having a different tone doesn't really mean yelling.

I understand, I think, that she jumped in before you finished your sentence. Can you look back at that email, perhaps in context of all the other emails you've sent her, and see how she could be on edge about it?

Also, starting out the answer to any question, "I don't care?" It's not a great way to talk to another person and I could see how someone could sort of lose their cool in response to it.

I do think it would be useful to you to try to see how what you said could have honestly provoked her to feel angry. And I'm just not one who believes that showing anger, as long as it's not scary or abusive, is wrong. In fact, I think it's healthy and normal. It's how you show that anger that matters.

Most of us could stand to understand better our impact on other people. In your shoes, I'd be asking my T, what is it that I said or did specifically that evoked/provoked you being angry?