c o u c h 38 - The dark ages....

I also know that I can accept and will think about what one person says if I like and respect that person. The same information from someone I do not respect or who I think is a condescending know it all will not be received by me. And I pretty much okay with that.

I think what I am talking about are things that seem objectively true to me or seem objectively wrong under all circumstances. Like the desire to enmesh another person and/or force them to accede to your will. That seems objectively wrong to me and connotates a complete complete disregard for the other person's autonomy.

[suddenly noticing how much my language changes when I'm talking directly to you, stopdog. That strikes me as very funny for some reason.]

That does make sense to me. However, if thinking that the sky is green is the driving force behind my panic attacks, then something really does need to change. Continuing to see my world from my warped point of view isn't going to help me heal.

That said, I'd like responses from people who think the sky is blue, people who think the sky is pink, and people who think the moon is made of swiss cheese. That way I can weigh my opinion against the alternatives. I don't mind people that insist that blue is the only color; I can still take or leave their opinion.

My take on this is that one can not decide for someone else how to change and grow or what for them they want to change and grow. I can say how I see it, but I don't think I am going to get anywhere for them or me by insisting.

This is a fun conversation that is totally taking my mind off of marriage counseling.

I do see your point, stopdog. If it is a gray area, I tend to stay out of it. Perhaps it is just because I grew up with a boundary stomping, enmeshing person who insisted on being in power and raging at those who even appeared to be encroaching on that power, that I cannot seem to tolerate those who do those things and consider those things to just be unquestionably wrong under all circumstances. I seriously cannot imagine a scenario in which that behavior would be acceptable.

I think maybe this does not bother me because I know someone else can't enmesh me. (except perhaps therapists - they are wily). I don't know why I see this as different when I have such a strong and huge deal about autonomy and personal freedom, except I don't see how someone wanting to enmesh with me will make me succumb to it. For the most part
I see that as a future with me doomed to failure for them that I don't really have to get involved with.
I more fear bullying from those who believe theirs is the one true way and will stop at nothing to insist everyone go along with them (the state, doctors, prison guards etc) where I cannot opt out and just be left alone. I see those who want to enmesh and boundary stomp as unable to do so as my boundaries are strong and they aren't really going to be able to get to me if I don't let them. I am not doing a great job at explaining what I see as the difference here. I will think and try. I have to go to a hearing now.

The language thing is funny.

Having had to fight at times viciously to get my power hungry enmesher off of me, I know that they can be vicious and incessant. Some try to break you down by sheer repetition -- having the same rage reaction to the same situation over and over amen. Alternately they persist in trying new ways to manipulate you into complying. I know how horrible that is to on the receiving end of, and hate to see it happen to other people. If the other person says no, accept it and go on with the relationship. If the person cannot tolerate the 'no' response, then the person should leave and find someone who WANTS to be enmeshed. When a person persists, time after time, year after year, in attempting to browbeat the other person into compliance, in my opinion, they are clearly in the wrong for attempting to violate the other person's boundaries. I completely understand and agree that it is the person's, whose boundaries are being violated, right to decide for him or herself whether they want to continue the relationship, but I do not think that excuses the boundary violator's behavior and I see no point in telling the person that the behavior is acceptable.

Using you as an example, you have mentioned hurting yourself. I respect that you get to do whatever you wish, but I will never agree with you that this is okay. I care about you, so I will never support you in that, or tell you I think it's perfectly acceptable.

This is probably one of those things we will never agree on, and I'm fine with that. You are allowed to have your own opinion, just try to clarify mine (and that is for my own benefit as well because my intense reaction to this is something I should probably deal with).

I'm secretly hoping she will stop me.

She won't of course.

There was a time when she broke the rules for me.
There was a time when I saw the tears in her eyes.
Those days are gone.

Power is the rock on which we break our ship.
At high tide, we sailed over the rock.
At other times we sailed around the rock.
But she is determined to face the rock square on.
And so we are wrecked.

Not very good poetry, but heartfelt!

((Lola))

Which therapist do you disrespect least?

wow quite the conversation

Thanks. I'm seeing things more and more from your point of view.

"Sweet talk" isn't about love, it's about power. It means she respects me enough to think I'm worth buttering up.

The real flattery in flattery is the idea that I'm worth flattering.

What?! I thought that hippy chick was you!!!!!!! Seriously!

Can't you just discuss this with her?

Yeah, I had to bow out before I got lawyered. Instead I will just go sit in the corner and do some math.

that is to funny P good to see ya around. i hope you are well

What a lovely story!

how was T lola

Wants to have a good cry but can't!

Why are you keeping this a secret from her? Terminating therapy primarily because you want her to stop you is pretty passive-aggressive. She cannot read your mind. You're setting her up to fail.

Do you really think it's a therapist's right or duty to try to talk you out of terminating therapy? It's your therapy, it's your choice.

That's a sad story.

Whew!! All I can say is, I like your mood. I'm also seeing red about this situation. This is why I could never be a t. You would be ticking me off so bad right now! But I think you would like to know that

T was good granite.... now I'm tired. Thanks for asking.

Mel what's wrong?

CE just tell the woman. "I want you to love me and I can't accept anything less then that, so please help me to accept that you dont love me. and I'm still ok"

I was going to make a joke about someone's typo, but I decided that would be petty and maybe even hurtful.

i'm off to T now have a good night all