[adel34]

Hi Everyone,
First I want to say that I do acknowledge that I said over the weekend that I wouldn't be posting threads anymore. I still do have issues with some things that happen here, but also realize perhaps I could have voiced these concerns in a calmer way.
This is something I think many of you would apreciate. On Friday I had a veryy difficult conversation with my caseworker from the mental health center I go to. A caseworker coordinates your treatment plan helps link you to resources, goes to pdoc appointments with you ETC. So is not necessarily a therapist (though some staff do casework and therapy and I believe mine has two clients as she's very new to doing therapy,) but is expected to be emotionally supportive.
Anyway, she was driving me home from the center and we were discussing an issue that had been very stressful for me for a couple months now and finally seemed to be coming to a head where I felt I had to choose between continuing to get more stressed out, (as I learned that if I pursued this the conditions would be more stressful for me,) or to put it on hold for now and do what I feel is right for myself. This is hard as I worry about disappointing people.
Anyway, I think it's beyond this concrete issue too. I just had a lot of built up emotions between this issue, still not having found a t and probably a million other things. So at some point during the conversation I started crying and couldn't stop.
It took her longer than I would have thought to actually address how upset I was. Before she did, and even after, she continued to talk to me as if I was still my logical just normal self. Usually when you're talking with someone problem solving or whatever, and they start to cry or have another emotional reaction your approach to them shifts somehow in response. The voice softens or changes tone, the person shows concern or something else to make the other person aware that they acknowledge that a big shift in mood has related, and the conversation often changes course as well.
Well this didn't happen. It's as if she was still stuck on problem solving this issue even as I was falling apart.
Her only suggestion in addressing how to calm down was to take deep breaths and relax my body. I timidly asked her if I could hold her hand, as this had worked before to help me calm down with my last t. I still planned on following her advice about breathing and relaxing, I just really felt I needed the extra support.
She said evenly that we'd had this conversation before about her comfort level. I had misunderstood it back then, only thinking she wasn't ok with hugs or the physical sitting close/ holding that my t had done. I didn't realize that something as small as her hand on my hand or arm or me holding her hand for a minute to calm down would be something she'd have a problem with. But she would not budge on the issue, no matter how much I said how hard it was to even ask, and then ask and get told no when I was clearly so upset. Taking deep breaths didn't help much in fact sometimes it made me cry harder.
She talked about how she's just not comfortable and wouldn't be with any of her clients. She also worried that I'd rely on the touch too much to help calm down and not have other skills. I said that my former t I thought had a middle ground between using just touch and also helping me find skills myself. I didn't think it was either or, or should be. Still she held firm.
I eventually did calm down after a long long time. But this situation hurt me very much and kind of stopped me in my tracks. I always thought, excluding anyone's job for a minute, that just person to person if someone saw another person as upset as I was, and especially if they knew this other person was without sight so couldn't see the caring look on their face, that their first impluse would be to reach out and touch them even in a small way. I mean it could be just me, but I almost don't think you even have to think about it. Whether you follow the impulse or not I'd think it would still be there.
But a friend of mine reminded me that so many ts just don't consider touch at all in the work. It's not covered well in school, many consider it fostering dependence or doing other harmful thinggs, and it simply never enters their minds. So she said that it just never even entered the caseworker's mind as an option even though I may have wanted or even needed it badly.
As time has gone by I've really reflected on all of this. Maybe the caseworker, other ts, and those here on the forum are right about touch not being a part of therapy and about that being ok. I've been trying to find ts where based on their training/ philosophy would be ok with touch, but am finding very very few. As I've said in other posts IL seems much more tradditional in the types of therapists that are there than MA. Maybe I need to adjustmy expectations to this rather than expect others to. I agreed with my last t too that touch is especially important due to the fact that I'm blind. And yet I've worked with two professionals so far who have known this seen my struggle and still held their boundaries. Maybe in spite of my thinking I need it, I just need to learn how to calm myself down like anyone else and that's it. I can't be interacting with say the caseworker, and have what I feel as this need still inside me. Expressing it and having it not be met would just make it worse. Maybe I was spoiled by having the t that I did, and so have an unrealistic expectation of what ts can provide. I try to remind myself that a t isn't friends or family and those are the people I should be getting touch from.
I was wondering anyone's thoughts on the situation. I imagine many people would agree with the conclusions I've come to over the past couple days. Maybe it will make finding a therapist easier without these high expectations for something that maybe isn't supposed to be there in the first place, or perhaps I needed it at one time but now I don't. I was supposed to see a potential t tomorrow but this got canceled due to a stupid snowstorm. I did send her a reflection I wrote on qualities in a therapist, in which touch was a big one. I had planned to say how it had helped me, but also this recent difficult experience and how that's made me realize maybe it's not so important or something I actually do need. It's just very emotional for me but I'm trying to be brave and accept it.

[CantExplain]

If I recall correctly, you can't see very well. In that case, you don't get the facial cues that the rest of us get. I think it only fair to give you some of the touch you ask for.

I agree. If you are blind touch is VERY important. It probably doesn't have to much, just to let you know you are being heard and to convey feeling on the T part.

[adel34]

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the replies so quickly!
Yes CE, you're right. I'm totally blind except for light perception. TThis made it especially hard that my parents did not comfort me with touch/hugs when I was upset, as I couldn't see their faces. Then again they were usually yelling at me about why was I crying and accting disgusted with me for being so emotional, so I can't imagine their facial expressions would have made me feel any better! LOL!
Being blind all my life I have a keen sense for tone of voice, picking up a person's mood through their voice ETC. I've gone most of my life without the emotionally supportive touch, and it was only a year ago with my last t that this was used. I felt it helped me to express what was inside and really feel held/ contained but as I said maybe I've grown beyond the point of needing that. I don't know.
But yes, especially in the silences or when the t really doesn't know what to say a little supportive touch would be helpful, but I'm not sure it's necessary. The caseworker clearly didn't think so.

[learning1]

I'm sorry your caseworker was so insensitive. From someone I know who is some sort of therapist, I think some therapy programs can be very insensitive to people who are blind. For example, they don't teach therapists anything about body language with people who are blind, and they teach as if everyone could see. I wonder if your caseworker or other therapists would learn how to express their visual expressions to you verbally or tactile-ly over time, as they get to know you. This is more for my curiousity than anything, so of course only answer if you want to, but do you ever talk about facial expressions or other body language verbally with your therapists or others, especially the good therapist from MA? Do you know if it is helpful if they tell you, for example, that they are smiling or tearing up or other body language? Also, do the current therapists you are meeting give you their arm to guide you to a chair or elsewhere? I wondered if they would learn to be more comfortable starting from that, but that could be a long stretch I think. I hope you can find a therapist who is comfortable with it from the beginning.

I don't know, but I imagine a lot of therapists consider it a risk to ever have physical contact with a client. It seems to me like in a lot of public or business situations it's a taboo to have any physical contact, just in case someone is offended by it (and some people, such as some people who have been abused, obviously have a good reason to want to avoid it). But sometimes I wonder if people with various disabilities who use touch a lot might help to change the taboo a little, without being insensitive to people who really do not want to be touched.

[learning1]

I wanted to add that my impression is that caseworkers don't necessarily get a lot of training that would lead to a lot of self awareness or ability to express empathy. I'm sure others on here may know better than I do. But I don't know if they are required to have much of any training that would lead to those things. Can they be hired just based on experience doing some type of unlicensed, untrained social service job?

[adel34]

Hi Learning1,
Thanks somuch for your comments and questions.
Where to start? Well the first thing that jumped at me was you asking about whether I talked with t from MA about body language and stuff. Yes, we have. Particularly the importance of me holding my head up and facing people when I'm talking. She coached me in how to sit/ where to face when doing an exercise about practicing sentences to use when setting boundaries with my mom. It took her awhile to adapt her style to the fact I was blind, but we worked through it. . Her biggest issue was trying to teach me about the physical movements/ body relaxation envolved in her work in a way that was nonvisual. But we got there.
She commented recently that towards the end of her in person work with me she found it helpful to tell me what she was thinking, ask a lot what I thought she was feeling, stuff like that as I couldn't see her face. I actually don't remember a lot of her doing this, except the her asking how she was feeling part, and being able to clarify that she wasn't mad at me which was good. But really with the two of us, and a couple ts I was working with during that same time (for about a year I saw two ts a week) touch played an important role.
Next, yes the case worker, and other staff at the mental health center are comfortable with guiding me to a chair. But this is not the same as emotionally supportive touch, and I know that and so do they unfortunately. But I wish your stratigy could work.
I don't know about how caseworkers get hired, and maybe others would have some better thoughts on this. I know that the one I didn't like at the last place I went only had a bachilor's degree in social work, and her last job was working with homeless people and she had no mental health care experience. She was a total flake, smoked in front of me in the car ETC. I hope she's gone soon.
Mine has a master's in psychology I believe and has the certification for qualified mental health profesional which is an IL thing I guess. Maybe it means they're pre licensed or something. Anyway, she's had several jobs before this one including inpatient work. and other agencies. I don't believe that where she works now has a hard and fast no touch policy, but she said other places have and that personally she is not comfortable with it and as my former t pointed out when we talked briefly this is an important boundary for her. She said that we don't know the case worker's personal history or what touch means to her.
I agree that there isn't a lot of education for mental health profesionals on those with disabilitys, or education for those who work with people with disabilitys on mental health-- I think it can work both ways. I see Corey as caring based on her actions and the amount of caring/ sense of humor/ warmth that she allows to be expressed in the relationship. The problem is that I sense there's much more there and if she'd let herself just be herself and let these positive traits come out it would help her clients and probably her. It's as if half of her is this detached clinical persona, and the other half is more herself but a smaller version of herself. This is a lot of what I see at the mental health center, particularly with the t I left. She's almost all clinical persona and every so often when I catch her off guard and make her laugh is when I most often see it, you see a glimpse of something more natural. This is such a switch for me from even the schooling I do have with a bs in counseling. Lesley's orientation is humanistic and so it's all about being genuine. Obveously for a lot of these people maybe they were taught to be more detached.
The one person who is actually herself is the drama therapist. There's nothing overly clinical or detached about her and she is very down to earth. And as a drama therapist uses touch in our group work, and has adapted exercises well to meet my needs. It's confusing that one person allows touch and others don't but I realize everyone's boundaries are different.
I'm pleasantly surprised that the view so far is that she was being insensitive / should give me some touch to accomidate for my blindness. For some reason I thought people would come down more on her side. In any case, thank you for the caring support.
It's just that there's really nothing I can say or do to change her or anyone else's mind on this. And I want to figure out how to stop feeling disapointed/ hurt about it. I can tell myself to accept it and that it's probably good in the long-term that I learn to emotionally support myself-- and that before my good t in MA I never had this touch from anyone and did ok. Then again back then I wasn't as open to my feelings so nowbeing without it just feels overwhelming. I can tell myself this but feel like crying all the time when thinking about the situation and what I feel I have to accept. So I can change my thinking but not my automatic emotional reaction and was curious your thoughts on that. Perhaps over time it'll just feel better as I get used to doing therapy this way. Again thanks for your support and questions.

[adel34]

I forgot to add that I agree with you, Learning1, about society's general feeling of wanting to steer away from touch in professional or work situations. I think this plays a big part in therapist's shock and not knowing what to do when I ask about it.

[scorpiosis37]

I'm sorry that you didn't get the support and physical comfort that you needed when you were upset. I think, as humans, we DO have a genuine need for touch in our lives, and it can be very healing to use touch in therapy. I don't think that offering a client touch is allowing them to use it as a "crutch," nor do I think it discourages clients from using their own coping skills. In fact, I think touch can strengthen the intimacy between T and client, allowing the client to be more vulnerable and more open in what they share with the therapist. It also makes the client feel more heard and accepted, which can increase the client's self-esteem and self-concept.

In my own therapy, I hug my T at the end of every session and, once, when I was very upset, T sat next to me on the couch, put her hand on my knee, rubbed my back, etc. Her stance is that, because I did not receive any touch growing up and was never comforted as a child, and that has had a significant impact on my life, she thinks it is beneficial to show me some of that now. Honestly, that has been the most healing aspect of my therapy. However, my T has also explained that she is not comfortable using touch with every client who asks for it. She says that, for her, she has to feel personally safe/comfortable with the client, be sure there is no romantic/sexual desire motivating the client's request for touch, and feel that it will be therapeutically beneficial for the client. I think her policy makes a lot of sense. If I ever need to seek out a different T in the future (i.e. if I move or she retires), I would intentionally seek out another T who is comfortable with touch. Of course, for me, it would take me many months of therapy with a T in order for me to feel comfortable receiving touch from them, but it's something I know I would want eventually if I built a strong T-relationship with them. (The first time I asked for touch from my current T was 9 months into therapy).

It seems clear that you want touch from your caseworker/Ts for all of the right reasons-- and I think that is something you have the right to look for when you're seeking out a therapist. I do feel though that every T, caseworker, etc. has the right to decide their own policy around touch. Some people simply don't feel comfortable with touch in general or with anyone outside their immediate family/friends (they may have an abuse history, neglect history, etc). so they make that policy for their own protection. Since touch is a two-way street, both people have to feel fully comfortable in order to use touch. Even for me, while I do feel safe using touch with my T , I do not feel safe touching my co-workers, casual friends, certain family members, or even students crying in my office (I teach at a University). I have been in situations where I know that the other person is very upset and wants physical comfort from me, but it would make me extremely uncomfortable to provide it. It's not that I see the other person as a threat per se, but that, given my own history, touch is not a safe thing for me. Touch only feels safe from a handful of people who have "proven" to be safe over long periods of time. I have friends I do not wish to hug, and one of the worst things they do is try to get me to change my mind. The second I feel my boundary being pressed, it makes things extremely scary. If they keep telling me they want to hug me and they think it would be beneficial for me too, it makes me feel threatened and it's cost me more than one friendship because I wouldn't give in. It has also probably made some of my crying students feel like I don't care-- I do care, but I still don't feel safe hugging a student. It's not because I think hugging students is inherently wrong-- as an undergraduate, I even remember hugging one of my professors who felt like a "big sister" to me. But, at the same time, I'm just not comfortable when the roles are reversed. It really has nothing to do with the person wanting the hug-- it's purely about what my personal boundaries are around my body and touch. I don't know why your caseworker has the boundaries that she does, but it may have nothing to do with professional ethics. It may be that she simply does not like to be touched, or perhaps she has a history of trauma or abuse and touch is not something that is safe for her. She probably does feel care and concern for you, and she probably does want to help comfort you, but touch is just not a way that she feels she can do that.

In this situation, I think you're both right. Your need for touch is legitimate and reasonable and you should have someone around who can provide that for you. At the same time, she has the right to maintain her own personal boundaries. What it sounds like is that she can't offer you what you really need in those moments. I don't know if you have this flexibility, but it sounds like you really need a caseworker, a T, a bodywork/somatic therapist, or some other kind of T who DOES feel comfortable using touch. I think you would continue to benefit from having touch in your therapy (like you did in MA). The struggle seems to be finding that right person. But I do hope that you continue to look and that you find the right T for you.

[learning1]

It sounds to me like you have a lot of understanding and insight into all of it (more than I could). Thanks for sharing about it. I thought it was awful that your caseworker continued in problem solving mode when you started crying. I think it would be good for you if she could give you touch. But who knows if she has some kind of abuse history that makes it too hard for her to touch people. I hope you will find a therapist who will offer you touch again eventually. I'm sure you know this but if it helps any, I thought you have an extremely good attitude about it, especially what you wrote here...

"It's just that there's really nothing I can say or do to change her or anyone else's mind on this. And I want to figure out how to stop feeling disapointed/ hurt about it. I can tell myself to accept it and that it's probably good in the long-term that I learn to emotionally support myself-- and that before my good t in MA I never had this touch from anyone and did ok. Then again back then I wasn't as open to my feelings so nowbeing without it just feels overwhelming. I can tell myself this but feel like crying all the time when thinking about the situation and what I feel I have to accept. So I can change my thinking but not my automatic emotional reaction and was curious your thoughts on that. Perhaps over time it'll just feel better as I get used to doing therapy this way. "

I was thinking that it's true you can't change any particular individual who is strongly against it (at least unlikely, and probably would take a long time and not be a good goal I suppose), but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for you to have someone who could give you touch if you could find someone. So, sure, it's good you can learn to emotionally support yourself more, since you haven't got any other choices about the physical touch for now, but just because you don't have it now doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you for needing it. I'm sorry it's hard

[adel34]

Hi Everyone,
Thanks again for such in depth and supportive replies.
Scorpiosis, thanks for your response about how you feel about touch in your own life, and touch in your therapy. I'm glad you and t hug at the end of every session. When I was younger and saw two different talk therapists they were both comfortable with this, which was nice. This is why it really surprised me when the t I saw at the center and my caseworker were unable to do the hugs or any kind of touch. But I know howgood it can feel to have someone right there next to you rubbing your back and stuff when you're that upset so glad you have that in your life, and you and t have built up that level of trust.
I understand about everyone's boundaries being different, and what you and Learning said about the caseworker's not wanting to use touch due to her own history or just personal preference makes sense and is what the t from MA said. Though, I do think that in her mind and perhaps others at the center it does have to do with profesional ethics. She seemed so convinced that she didn't feel comfortable with the touch because what if no one was there and I needed to learn to cope on my own. Even when I said that t in MA and I had had touch and she was teaching me skills she said she didn't feel it was right. I guess everyone has their own take on ethical issues like this which is why they're so controversial.
Unfortunately I don't have much flexibility at all due to financial circumstances. Also as I said before Chicago really doesn't have much in the way of body-centerd somatic therapists. T from MA is an expressive arts/ body centered therapist, as were the other two I saw who were good for me. My apt next week is with an intern who's internship unfortunately ends in MA so we wouldn't have much time together. The center she works at is big on internal family systems and mindfullness, and when I asked the intake coordinator she said there was no hard and fast policy against touch. But this experience has shaken my feelings/ conviction on asking for touch so much that I'm not sure I'll ask her for it.
The other place I'm looking into is the one place in the area that has creative arts therapists. And after an intake would be assigned a therapist, I imagine either drama or dance/movement both of which I believe use touch to some degree. So I'm planning on trying this intern first. Her policy says you have to have six sessions before deciding if therapy is meeting your needs. So I'll do that and then either move on to the creative arts people then, or wait til she leaves in May or something. I'm hoping at some point some more creative type therapists will come to this city.
Thanks Learning1 for the compliment about my good attitude. I'm trying to be positive though it doesn't hurt any less. I'm just hoping as I said over time that I'll feel better about the whole thing as I get stronger in managing my feelings. You've all been so caring and helpful. A

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by adel34

I forgot to add that I agree with you, Learning1, about society's general feeling of wanting to steer away from touch in professional or work situations. I think this plays a big part in therapist's shock and not knowing what to do when I ask about it.

Frankly, our society is foolish and immature when it comes to touch. Yes, there is inappropriate touching, but to assume that all touching is inappropriate is just crazy.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Frankly, our society is foolish and immature when it comes to touch. Yes, there is inappropriate touching, but to assume that all touching is inappropriate is just crazy.

Yes, the assumption that all/most touch is inappropriate or sexual is quite Victorian and silly. I'm glad I have a T who uses "common sense" in this regard! However, I do appreciate the fact that touch is not used in my own workplace. It has nothing to do with ethics or a fear of sexual intensions. I highly doubt my crying 18 year old student or my gregarious department chair are thinking anything illicit! But, For me, touch is personal and intimate (even on a platonic level) and not something that feels comfortable with my colleagues/ business associates/ students or deans. For me, touch expresses the bond I have with someone and, if that close personal bond is not there, I do not want to use touch. So I guess I do feel that touch is not really something that mixes well with a professional setting, unless one's profession is in the "healing/helping/body" realm, like a therapist, doctor, nurse, masseuse, dancer, athlete, etc. Do others agree, or do you think there should be more touch in workplaces? I guess my fear is that if I worked in a setting where touch was the norm, it would be expected of me, and it would feel hard to protect my personal boundaries by constantly saying "no." I guess I feel like companies should not have blanket policies, but allow individuals to make their own choices (and support an environment where that choice really is free).

[Asiablue]

Touch is something that comes up on this board a lot. I think i read somewhere that touch isn't encouraged by the therapy profession particularly when a client is upset because it interrupts the clients emotional state or ability to work thru that moment. Kind of like coming to the clients rescue and that hugs send a message that that's the only thing that will make them feel better. Sitting with the client while they are immersed in their grief is considered far more therapeutic. And in a way i get this.... if i am crying and a therapist came over and hugged me i would feel a pressure to dry my tears and appear to feel better by their attempt at comfort.

That being said, i think there is a huge need for society to change it's view on touch between adults. Everything seems to get sexualised. We don't seem to be comfortable with touch. I think a lot of people are touch deprived. I include myself in this.

My ex-T refused all touching except for a handshake (I never requested it, it came up in a conversation re: his boundaries on the subject), which I think he reserved for meeting a client for the first time. My current T has hugged me 4 or 5 times, all when I have been upset and then once this last session because I have a big, anxiety-producing appt. coming up and he was trying to be supportive.
I personally grew up without much touch and as an adult don't need or really want it (I call it "my personal bubble") unless I am in a relationship with a guy, and then my needs can vary depending on that relationship.
Anyway, the important part...I read everything you typed in your first post and I think it was cold of her not to acknowledge how upset you were...she can still be comforting with her words and tone, even if not with her hand (if she feels that is a personal/professional boundary for her, I can understand that).
However, with you being blind, I would think touch would be an important part of your therapy, as you are missing the cues the rest of us get to see. I don't think it's wrong to keep looking for the right T who will include touch in your therapy....I think it might be difficult to proceed and feel fulfilled w/out it.
I have read several people posting on here about Ts and receiving hand-holding or hugs from them, either during every session, when requested, or when needed as a form of support.
I say keep looking...it's great that you are checking out some opportunities, and I am sorry more are not readily available to you. You deserve the right kind of T who can give you the care you need.

[elliemay]

Personally, I have touch issues. I can tolerate a manicure (NO pedicure) and I've had a massage once - that was okay, but not as relaxing as it should have been.

My old therapist and I hugged maybe 5 times throughout the entire course of my therapy.

It's very easy for me to see that if I have issues with touch, then my therapist might as well. It might have nothing to do with caring, or nurturing, they just might have a thing about it.

I just think the same courtesy that I hope would be applied to me regarding my physical boundaries, could be extend to my therapist.

My current one doesn't touch at all. He won't even shake hands. It's okay. I think he is a little OCD. I don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by elliemay

Personally, I have touch issues. I can tolerate a manicure (NO pedicure) and I've had a massage once - that was okay, but not as relaxing as it should have been.

My old therapist and I hugged maybe 5 times throughout the entire course of my therapy.

It's very easy for me to see that if I have issues with touch, then my therapist might as well. It might have nothing to do with caring, or nurturing, they just might have a thing about it.

I just think the same courtesy that I hope would be applied to me regarding my physical boundaries, could be extend to my therapist.

My current one doesn't touch at all. He won't even shake hands. It's okay. I think he is a little OCD. I don't take it personally.

I am the same with the pedicure...no way...and the massage (once as well) I think made me more tense.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by tractionbeam0610

I am the same with the pedicure...no way...and the massage (once as well) I think made me more tense.

I hear ya! I guess it's just natural to me to understand that about others, including my therapist.

I mean we all have boundaries. It's okay. I get to have them respected, I just think my therapist should too.

[Dreamy01]

Hi there

I'm sorry you've had painful rejecting experiences with touch in therapy. I understand how horrible that feels.

Touch is such an individual issue and there's really nothing wrong with needing it in my view. Some Ts do offer touch and you have the right to see someone who is prepared to offer it if that's what you need. Sometimes feelings change over time in the t relationship - in my case my t started by offering touch but then felt it wasn't helpful - and you might need to be prepared for that as obviously it is up to the T whether he or she wants to offer it and they have a right to refuse at any point, although hopefully with sensitivity.

I don't think there's any right or wrong about use of touch in therapy (obviously within ethical boundaries) only what feels right to t and client. I'm in a muddle with this myself because I crave touch strongly but it has pulled me backwards in the past and made me desperate for what i can't have. At other times it has helped me feel connected to and supported by t. My T uses her judgement call on what feels right at the time and I have to respect that. I prefer that to her saying 'no' full stop because she's leaving the issue for us both to negotiate as time goes on, although naturally the final decision lies with her. That wouldn't work for all but it does for me.

Maybe you have decided that touch is no longer something to expect from therapy, but it's worth being mindful that your feelings and needs are okay and there will always be ts prepared to work with you.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by adel34

I was wondering anyone's thoughts on the situation. I imagine many people would agree with the conclusions I've come to over the past couple days.

I am really glad you posted about this. My thoughts are not about the role of touch in therapy. I think whatever both people negotiate is perfectly professional. I believe that touch can be healing and that it can be detrimental to the person. I work with very traumatized people, and I still remember 20 years ago the first time I touched someone in empathy-- I patted her knee gently as she was crying. And she nearly knocked her chair over trying to get away from me. So I now use my words and I don't touch anyone unless they touch me-- sometimes people reach out to me for a hug and I am not going to shove them to the floor.

I think the issue is more about how to deal with not getting what you want from people, and it looks like the work you did on this issue has really moved you forward. I think this issue surfaces in T a lot because a lot of us are there to get what we are not, or haven't got, from others. The supportiveness of the T role primes us to expect, maybe even demand at times, that we get what we want. But T, like everyone else, cannot be totally devoted to giving us what we want even if they understand what that is. So sometimes they deliberately refuse (if they know), other times they don't get it so they don't have the opportunity. There are times when what we learn from this is that we have to be better communicators of what we want, and that increases our chances of getting it.

But people will always disappoint us, in and outside of T. Nobody is perfectly attuned nor do they have the attention or capacity to always provide what we want. So we can kick and scream about it, and induce guilt in them for not giving it to us. We can adjust our expectations, consider the reasonableness of our requests. We can reject everything from everyone to avoid being disappointed that we don't get what we want. Or there's probably lots of other emotional and behavioral responses that I haven't thought of.

It just occurs to me that this work you've put in to deal with your disappointment will serve you well in the future. Thoughtfulness and reflectiveness is never wasted.

[adel34]

Hi Everyone,
Wow! Thanks so much for all the thoughtful and supportive replies.
Yes, I agree that society's general tendency to shy away from all touch really doesn't make much sense. I also think it's such a personal issue that people's boundaries need to be respected on it, even in an environment where touch is more the norm. Even though I felt I wanted it or even needed it from the caseworker I also kept saying that I didn't want to hurt her or disrespect her boundaries, so I was never about that. I think I wrote a post awhile back about the t I saw att this same place who wasn't comfortable with touch/hugs, and someone said I should demand this of them because I believe it's what I need. I wouldn't do that as I think it would be very insensitive.
It's the part about her saying it's more important for me to focus on ways to calm myself down on my own, rather than relying on the touch and what if others weren't there to provide it? This is what made me start to think that maybe she's right and maybe I'm at a point where I don't need it in therapy, even if before it was helpful in order to help encourage expression of feelings and for me to feel contained. I'm getting better at expressing my feelings, I can't believe I said all I did to the caseworker in the conversation we had even while so upset, so this is why I started feeling maybe it's more of a want than a need.
I'm not sure but I think therapy could procede without the touching. I never would have said it before this incident, because I was so focused on how helpful it had been in the past and just trying to find someone who could provide that, Ididn't stop to think about adjusting my expectations to the fact that I may not find someone or it may not be as big a deal as I thought. I did do good work particularly with the psychiatrist I saw for a couple years and there wasn't much touch at all except an ocassional hug. It would be different work than I did with my t from MA, but maybe it's what I need right now and could be valuable in it's own way.
Ann your response means a lot! Thanks so much for your thoughtfulness and insights. You're right that this is less about the issue of whether touch is right or wrong in therapy, and more about dealing with not getting what you want, or having to really consider if this thing is really something you need or just something you want strongly.
Telling myself that touch isn't necessarily the job of a t, but only something used if they're comfortable/ really feel it's for our long-term benifit is helpful. And that I can get touch from others besides t, like a friend. Someone I know who does brain gym and developmental movement sessions even shared with me ways I could touch myself to help calm down. Like I guess putting your tongue on the roof of your mouth helps with stopping crying, never heard of that but she's very smart in this area so I at least will give it a try! Kind of funny though LOL!
Having more realistic thoughts about this still doesn't take away the difficult feelings of sadness and kind loss of something that all this time I felt was such a need in therapy and really I think isn't. I just don't know about asking ts in the future for touch. This whole experience has made me really reflect on whether that's necessaryor not. I certainly won't hold it as such a big expectation when looking for a t, which will probably make it easier to find someone! And if I do get it, I don't know, I don't think I'll let it be so much the focus of what I want from the therapist as I did with previous t. I've just become more cautious about the whole thing.
Thanks again so much everyone! Oh, and I think those of you are right that the caseworker could have showed more caring in her tone of voice. But again, unfortunately showing a lot of caring even through their voice seems to actually be kind of hard for some of the people here. I don't know, but again I can't make people be a certain way. An interesting thing though is that last week my caseworker couldn't take me to my pdoc appointment. Caseworkers work on teams of three and so cover for each other with stuff like that. So I went with a different caseworker. She has come from a background of sociology and criminology. I felt like her way of interacting with me was much more natural and just herself rather than being clinical and careful with how she says things all the time. I guess it has it's negatives in the sense that she's come to this work without the clinical training others have. But then again she hasn't developed the detached clinical persona that I personally don't see as helpful in working with clients. Just interesting to notice.
I'll keep everyone posted on my t search going forward.

[Syra]

I have struggled with this issue of "if touch" "how much touch" "what kind of touch." I still haven't decided what I think are good guidelines although I have some guidelines.

I think if there is touch, then that needs to be discussed as to what it means, and what feelings are triggered. Perhaps not immediately, but soon.

I think some touch is okay, but I'm not sure on when and where and how and why.

I think lacking the ability to see body language would make more touch more acceptable.

I think the concern about becoming dependent on touch is a reasonable concern, but I don't think the answer is necessarily to never touch. I think the answer is to talk about it.

I htink a lot of professionals have a no touch rule to protect themselves, not to serve their client. On the other hand, if they can't handle it, I'm not sure how they can do it.

[Dreamy01]

I understand your reasoning about whether touch should be used by a t as a way of soothing a client rather than encouraging self care etc. I also know what you mean about want vs need. I only have my own experiences to draw on and I think I can self care pretty well most of the time. It's just that when I'm in a certain place I really feel as though I NEED (but am willing to admit it could be a strong want) to have physcial contact in the form of hand holding with t. This doesn't happen all the time but when I have touch it can feel too good as someone else said, and this sends me back into 'wanting it all the time' mode which is obviously unhelpful.

I don't think there's necessarily a mutually exclusive relatonship between touch and self care. I think it's natural to crave touch from another person es well as being able to self care. It depends on where the client is I suppose. If touch is replacing self care then that's obviously a problem. Maybe your reasoning stems from the fact it might have been?

Touch isn't the job of a t, but some do offer it, mine included, because it can be healing in some circumstances. My T is very body orientated anyway as she feels healing is a holistic process, not merely an emotional or mental one. But again, this comes down to what feels right for t and client.

Best of luck with your t and life journey.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by adel34

Telling myself that touch isn't necessarily the job of a t, but only something used if they're comfortable/ really feel it's for our long-term benifit is helpful.

That strikes me also as being important. We are not entitled to have what we want from others. For me, with my history, I have a conflict with wanting things from others at all. I feel that if I want something from someone, and they are not comfortable giving it, then I have done something wrong. Growing up, there was someone who got what he wanted from me despite the fact that I was uncomfortable-- sometimes he used force, sometimes he used manipulation, sometimes he used threats against other people and creatures, etc. So the idea of being on the other side, of asking people for something and them being uncomfortable, makes me feel icky. So I often do not ask for what I want. I am not afraid of rejection, I am afraid of making other people feel how I once felt. I know logically that doesn't make me a perpetrator, but my emotional reasoning is a bit further behind.

[adel34]

Sera: I can understand the conflict of not knowing exactly the place of touch in therapy. This isprobably something a lot of therapists and clients struggle with. For the therapists/ professionals who don't allow touch it's probably a combination of their own feelings of wanting to protect themselves as well as their sense of ethics. As someone who's blind touch is more important, in general to me, than to those who aren't blind. But as I think about it, it's also not necessary. I've interacted with many people, other ts, staff at the place I live, teachers, ETC where there wasn't touch at all or very little touch besides just having me take their arm. And as I said my parents didn't touch/ hug much and I did make up for not bbeing able to see people's faces by getting a lot from their voice. Also I think I should practice more asking people how they're feeling instead of just assuming, as we all can get in the habbit of doing whether we're blind or not!
Dreamy: I think you're right that perhaps I was depending on the touch too much in the place of really learning to soothe myself. I mean as I said this was something that my previous t emphasized teaching me, but there was always the knowledge that the touch would be there too, and this often worked better to help me calm down than my attempts to calm down myself. Because it was just during the time I was with her that I even became really open to my feelings, I'm really just learning how to also calm myself down. So I guess if I were to be honest I'm not that great at it, and maybe was relying on the touch too much in place of really learning the skills and to trust myself rather than automatically thinking that someone else would just give in to my wants or needs.
Ann: I understand how emotionally, if someone got what they wanted in an abusive way when you were younger, asking for what you want yourself and feeling uncomfortable to see their discomfort would make you feel like you were making them be in the position you were in as a child in some way. I'm sorry all this happened to you, and I hope you continue to heal from it.