[rainbow8]

I'm determined to work hard on myself in T, maybe even more so than before, to show my T that her disclosure to me didn't change anything. I want to work on my issues very strongly.

But, what happened last week did change something....

I still feel I want to apologize to her for "putting her on the spot" and making her tell me something she didn't want to tell me.

I feel disbelief about what she told me. Maybe it's more like disillusioned. Reality. Her life wasn't as perfect as I thought it was. That makes me feel very sad. For her and for me. It's the way life is. The previous week I had told her "I want to be you". That's not true anymore.

I admire her courage.

I have to accept my feelings, not push them away. Maybe some will say I'm overreacting, and tell me to go on as if I didn't know what my T is going through. Just to forget it. Easy to say, difficult to do when you're doing somatic experiencing and focusing on the "now", in the room, and how the space feels, and how my body feels.

Grist for the mill, I suppose.

[HealingTimes]

Hey Rainbow I don't really know too much about you or your situation with your T, but i found it a real shock when i found out that my T wasn't this perfect person, with a perfect life.
I asked her "how can i trust you with all of my inner most secrets, if you are not perfect?". I think that by seeing your T isn't perfect, it opens the door to you seeing the possibility of her being able to make mistakes.
It's hard to trust and depend on someone that isn't perfect (well, it is hard for me, anyway), but we have to believe it's ultimately worth it

I'm really glad to hear that you are planning on working really hard in your T, me too

[unaluna]

I'm glad she finally told you. It might be something she's been waiting for the right time in your therapy to do. I love these bolts from the blue. They might shake you up at first, but then you wonder later how your therapy would ever have progressed without them. And that's so weird to say, because they're such random things.

[Raging Quiet]

((((Sits with you))))

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I have to accept my feelings, not push them away. Maybe some will say I'm overreacting, and tell me to go on as if I didn't know what my T is going through. Just to forget it. Easy to say, difficult to do .

You're not a machine. You react to things, it's a human thing to do. Give yourself space, and time, to process this; and then the going will get easier. After all, what T told you was true before last week; what you know doesn't change her. And you are there to work; that hasn't changed either. It'll be OK Rainbow.

[SallyBrown]

I think that if apologizing will help you move forward, you should go ahead and do it. I always think it's a shame if a genuinely-felt apology is held back.

I don't think anyone's telling you to stuff your feelings about it inside (although I don't want to speak for anyone else). I think the concern is that you'll make this the focus of your therapy. But that doesn't sound like what you're saying right now. It seems like apologizing will help you step AWAY from the issue, rather than getting stuck in it. If it were me, I'd probably try to approach it that way -- that is, saying sorry as part of deliberately setting the issue aside, so the focus can remain on what sort of stuff this brings up for me and how it can help me learn about myself.

[ultramar]

You know, from a certain perspective, if you hadn't asked her in the first place, it wouldn't have to be 'in the room' at all and would not have to influence or interfere with your therapy. I think this is at least one of the reasons she has asked you not to ask her personal questions (or personal questions about certain things) --not because it burdens her, but because it leads you to focus on her, instead of you.

For those who will say, what's wrong with asking personal questions? I think it depends on the patient and the therapy and what one needs to work on.

Now her marital situation is going to become a part of your therapy, one way or another, and from what you've said. I think this is the intent behind this boundary --to avoid this.

I'm glad you're wanting to work hard, but I hope it's not because of this disclosure and how you feel about asking her. Again, that would make this desire to work hard about her --instead of you.

I'll say again, I don't think there's any need to apologize. Just grist for the mill for yourself in not splitting hairs when it comes to boundaries and in making your therapy about you. Good luck.

[rainbow8]

ultramar: I didn't want to read your post to me because I knew it would hurt. It does, but I'm trying to pay attention to what you are saying, and not get defensive or ignore your comments.

What you write is accurate, but I think there is a middle ground. It hurts me too much to think that therapy isn't somewhat about the relationship between my T and me. Most people agree, in one of the threads on the forum, that the relationship between them and their T is very important.

Do you also think it's wrong for therapy to be about her and me in the room? That's the way my T does therapy. It's NOT about her personal life, but about her and me.

If I want to work hard to please my T, then that's where I am right now. I guess the bottom line is that a lot of what you tell me in my threads rings true, but I am where I am. My T is happy with where I am, and if it's still about her, at least I'm moving in the right direction. TBH, it may be that I'm not quite ready to apply what you have to tell me. I have to take reality in small doses. I hear you, and hopefully I will get to the point where I will not make therapy be about my T.

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

ultramar: I didn't want to read your post to me because I knew it would hurt. It does, but I'm trying to pay attention to what you are saying, and not get defensive or ignore your comments.

What you write is accurate, but I think there is a middle ground. It hurts me too much to think that therapy isn't somewhat about the relationship between my T and me. Most people agree, in one of the threads on the forum, that the relationship between them and their T is very important.

Do you also think it's wrong for therapy to be about her and me in the room? That's the way my T does therapy. It's NOT about her personal life, but about her and me.

If I want to work hard to please my T, then that's where I am right now. I guess the bottom line is that a lot of what you tell me in my threads rings true, but I am where I am. My T is happy with where I am, and if it's still about her, at least I'm moving in the right direction. TBH, it may be that I'm not quite ready to apply what you have to tell me. I have to take reality in small doses. I hear you, and hopefully I will get to the point where I will not make therapy be about my T.

Hugs to you, Rainbow

[feralkittymom]

It hurts me too much to think that therapy isn't somewhat about the relationship between my T and me. Most people agree, in one of the threads on the forum, that the relationship between them and their T is very important.

Do you also think it's wrong for therapy to be about her and me in the room? That's the way my T does therapy. It's NOT about her personal life, but about her and me.

It's absolutely true for you (and many others) that therapy is and should be about the relationship between you and your T in the room. That's appropriate.

But everytime you insist on knowing personal details of your T's life outside the room, you triangulate and actually dilute the relationship between you inside the room.

It might be worth exploring why you feel the need to create this distance.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

ultramar: I didn't want to read your post to me because I knew it would hurt. It does, but I'm trying to pay attention to what you are saying, and not get defensive or ignore your comments.

What you write is accurate, but I think there is a middle ground. It hurts me too much to think that therapy isn't somewhat about the relationship between my T and me. Most people agree, in one of the threads on the forum, that the relationship between them and their T is very important.

Do you also think it's wrong for therapy to be about her and me in the room? That's the way my T does therapy. It's NOT about her personal life, but about her and me.

If I want to work hard to please my T, then that's where I am right now. I guess the bottom line is that a lot of what you tell me in my threads rings true, but I am where I am. My T is happy with where I am, and if it's still about her, at least I'm moving in the right direction. TBH, it may be that I'm not quite ready to apply what you have to tell me. I have to take reality in small doses. I hear you, and hopefully I will get to the point where I will not make therapy be about my T.

I read what you wrote and found myself smiling. I like your trust in yourself, knowing you are in a process, knowing you are making progress, trusting that you are going in the right direction, knowing you can't do it all immediately, and knowing you are aren't at the end yet.
Is that what it's like?

Rainbow,
I really feel for you you work so hard on your relationship with t and it pays off because you have a really good trusting relationship with her.
That shows because of the fact that t was honest with you and able to tell you about her marriage breakdown. I understand you worrying about her and this is why ts don't disclose personal details because therapy becomes about them and not us.
I have a feeling that your t did not want to talk about her husband to you before because she was having problems for a long time.
You have good intuition rainbow because I remember you saying before that you felt they weren't compatible in your opinion.
Your t is hurting right now and of course you are going to be worried about her it's only natural that we will worry about them if we are invested in the relationship but please try to use your therapy for you because t can look after herself

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

It hurts me too much to think that therapy isn't somewhat about the relationship between my T and me. Most people agree, in one of the threads on the forum, that the relationship between them and their T is very important.

Do you also think it's wrong for therapy to be about her and me in the room? That's the way my T does therapy. It's NOT about her personal life, but about her and me.

It's absolutely true for you (and many others) that therapy is and should be about the relationship between you and your T in the room. That's appropriate.

But everytime you insist on knowing personal details of your T's life outside the room, you triangulate and actually dilute the relationship between you inside the room.

It might be worth exploring why you feel the need to create this distance.

Maybe, but I feel VERY close to my T. I sensed something and I brought it up with her. I don't think I've asked her many personal questions in the 3 years of therapy. I honestly don't. I think this calls for a thread about it.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

[B]But everytime you insist on knowing personal details of your T's life outside the room, you triangulate and actually dilute the relationship between you inside the room.

YOu seem very certain of this. I'm not clear to me how personal details triangulate - or perhaps it is the wanting to know personal details is triangulating. I would like to hear more. The issue of boundaries is something I struggle with a lot and I'm trying to learn more about it.

I just read this over, and perhaps I missed something important. I think for a client to INSIST on personal details could be deadly to therapy. I ABSOLUTELY agree with you. But I think there is a difference between INSISTING, and asking, and wondering & being curious. Although perhaps not. or rather, perhaps that isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if sometimes it is. If I ask about the marital/partner status' of a therapist, and don't want to do marriage therapy with someone who is single, and I insist on knowing before discussing marriage issues, that may be deadly to the therapy, but it's my choice whether to see a therapist for marriage counseling who isn't married. Or if I think cohabiting without marriage is an unwise idea (or shows maturity that I wish in a T), and wnat to know if the therapist cohabits because I think it gives me a sense of shared values, I'm entitled to do that. I might be wrong, but I can ask. The T can choose whether to answer, and we can talk about whether we can resolve the issue.

Perhaps we get to the same end place however, as I agree, the issue behind wanting to know is important.

[feralkittymom]

Syra, I agree with the appropriateness of your examples. What I think can make it problematic and triangulating is the obsessive need to know, not based on any rational reason about one's own therapy, but for some other unhealthy reason.

I think obsessions can be very much like addictions in how they originate and play out. Addictions are often defense mechanisms of some sort, devised to distract, or cover, or get distance from something painful or uncomfortable.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Maybe, but I feel VERY close to my T. I sensed something and I brought it up with her. I don't think I've asked her many personal questions in the 3 years of therapy. I honestly don't. I think this calls for a thread about it.

Wait, so if you're not sorry about asking her, then why are you apologizing, and for what?

[Syra]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

Syra, I agree with the appropriateness of your examples. What I think can make it problematic and triangulating is the obsessive need to know, not based on any rational reason about one's own therapy, but for some other unhealthy reason.

I think obsessions can be very much like addictions in how they originate and play out. Addictions are often defense mechanisms of some sort, devised to distract, or cover, or get distance from something painful or uncomfortable.

Thanks for your response and taking the time to explain it more fully. I hadn't thought about the overlap between addictions and obsessions, but I think I agree - there are many similarities. I'm not sure if I am understanding fully yet. I obviously agree that an unhealthy reason for wanting to know would be something to explore. And wanting to know personal information can be unhealthy. Even if the T volunteers the information (and sometimes they do).

But an unhealthy desire to know can't be explored without telling the T about one's unhealth questions. And at that point, since I'm the cl and they are the T, I would expect the T help guide the client as well as make their own decisions. I wouldn't expect a client not to ask. That's what they are in therapy for.

Perhaps I heard you differently than you intended. I thought I heard that you suggest that the OP should not ask and should instead work on why they want to know. But I'm thinking that would be a question for the T to consider and sometimes it would be okay, and sometimes not okay to answer. I guess I thought your statement But everytime you insist on knowing personal details of your T's life outside the room, you triangulate and actually dilute the relationship between you inside the room. was suggesting the client work on this by herself, or recongize this dynamic, as clearly a client wanting the information is unlikely to be able to work on that issue without hte aid of the T. I'm thinking I'm hearing the cl has to be better able to assess the issue than the T, if the T is willing to answer the question. I imagine I am very mistaken, but I'm not sure what I missed?

Just to be clear, I totally agree that wanting too much information, or certain information, can be unhealthy. I think it's a good issue to consider. I'm not sure what triangulation is, or what a diluted relationship looks like, but I suspect you are absolutely accurate. It has a feeling of being accurate. It's after that I'm unclear. Should the client be recognizing the triangulation if the T doesn't? Should she be working on it outside of therapy? or inside with a T that doesn't recognize it? I maybe that is where my confusion is.

[feralkittymom]

I thought I heard that you suggest that the OP should not ask and should instead work on why they want to know.

Well, that would be a goal. Of course, if it's an issue for the client, they're probably going to first become aware by enacting it, rather than articulating it. When the time was right, a good T would try to refocus the client on the deeper issue of the need to know.

But when the pattern is well-established, and the obsession has been discussed pretty clearly in therapy, and boundaries have been articulated, then I guess I do think the client should try to adjust the behavior. At the very least, rather than persist in asking the personal questions, talk about feeling the need to ask--deal with it as a therapy issue. This may be impossible, if it's a true obsession (much like an addiction)--but then the T should be addressing it.

In this case, I think the T made an error by answering. She acted inconsistently about an on-going issue in the therapy. It sounds like she was taken aback and a bit thrown at the time. Understandable.

But now the focus has moved to discomfort and doubts about the T's worth. Whether or not to apologize. Everything but the issue that drove the questioning in the first place. Absolutely, the T should be bringing this to the client's attention so that it can be worked out in the room. And I hope she will.

Triangulation is just what you think it is: bringing a third entity into a relationship. This T set up clear boundaries about seeking info about her husband. Then she answered a question that very much involved her husband. I don't see that as a change of mind as much as a corruption of the therapy frame because allowing that boundary to be violated has created harm. Now it's an issue between T and client, damaging the frame, which creates distance in the therapeutic relationship.

That's an armchair analysis, FWIW. I hope it works out.

[Syra]

I thought I heard that you suggest that the OP should not ask and should instead work on why they want to know.

But when the pattern is well-established, and the obsession has been discussed pretty clearly in therapy, and boundaries have been articulated, then I guess I do think the client should try to adjust the behavior. At the very least, rather than persist in asking the personal questions, talk about feeling the need to ask--deal with it as a therapy issue. This may be impossible, if it's a true obsession (much like an addiction)--but then the T should be addressing it.

I can see your point, although perhaps this is where we part and disagree. Since the therapist answered the questions, and clearly was capable of not answering the question as she initially didn't, either the cl didn't breach the boundary, or the T was not clear about hte boundary.
Although I agree with your last statement - if all those things are true, then the T should be addressing it. The client should haven't to worry about what is okay and not okay to say, ask, etc.

In this case, I think the T made an error by answering. She acted inconsistently about an on-going issue in the therapy. It sounds like she was taken aback and a bit thrown at the time. Understandable.

I think again we part. I'm not convinced the T made an error. Maybe she made an error, but I don't feel like I can know that. So much is involved than just what is written about here. I'd probably also find it difficult for someone to tell me definitively that my T was not doing things well enough (although I'm sure it's true on occasion). So much goes in to therapy.

But now the focus has moved to discomfort and doubts about the T's worth.

okay I missed that part. I remember wondering how getting a divorce would impact therapy, but I read that a little different from the t's worth.

Whether or not to apologize.

Actually I resonated wtih that. I'm not sure an apology is the issue as much as the discomfort. People often apologize when they experience discomfort. I would think that would work itself out, and more important for the client to take the issue to the T, than to sit on it. Perhaps the discomfort is exactly what you think happened, and through the apology they will get to the issue of why she wants to know. Maybe. I guess my sense is T often isn't in a straight line and I often learn things when things go awry.

Everything but the issue that drove the questioning in the first place.

I wonder if they would get there eventually by doing what is alive in them, rather than trying to figure out what they don't know is going on.

Absolutely, the T should be bringing this to the client's attention so that it can be worked out in the room. And I hope she will.

I imagine that if it is an issue that interferes with therapy, it can't help but come into the room.

Triangulation is just what you think it is: bringing a third entity into a relationship. This T set up clear boundaries about seeking info about her husband. Then she answered a question that very much involved her husband. I don't see that as a change of mind as much as a corruption of the therapy frame because allowing that boundary to be violated has created harm. Now it's an issue between T and client, damaging the frame, which creates distance in the therapeutic relationship.

Hmm. I'll have to think about that. I'm not so sure that husband=marriage, that the therapist is clear, or that there has been corruption, or harm. I've actually had my therapist makes a mistake that turned out to lead to one of the most wonderful moments of therapy. I guess I don't see the issue about the boundary as resolved and clear for either of them. I guess I don't see all issues between T and client as damaging the framework. For me, part of the framework is working out issues between T and client, and sometimes it takes a few sessions. I wish my T NEVER EVER made a mistake. particularly given my prior experience. And yet I learned that far more important than the T NEVER making a mistake is the ability to discuss and resolve mistakes (either by T or cl). So I guess I don't see this as as serious as you.

That's an armchair analysis, FWIW. I hope it works out.

I believe you. You sound like you really care what happens and have spent time and shared yourself to try and help. I hope it works out too.

[rainbow8]

Thanks, Syra. It helps me to see that my T and I can decide, and I shouldn't base my emotions on what I read on PC. I'm very quick to judge myself negatively. Ferralkitty and ultramar's responses make sense, but so does YOUR viewpoint. Perhaps my questions to my T should be: why do I accept what people tell me that's negative, rather then positive? Why can't I decide for myself?

[rainbow8]

Update: My T was not too interested in discussing my problem of wanting to know about her. She didn't think it was a big deal that I asked, and she said she decided to tell me. It didn't seem right not to. I think she said she had wanted to tell me because it would make us closer. I wasn't expecting any of these answers so I may have heard wrong! But she did say that we know each other a long time, so it may have been okay for me to ask and to know. She's fine. I think she's glad she's leaving her H.

She wanted to go back to the SE from last time, as did I. So, my session was okay though SE is so slow. It's not talk therapy. She always says I've had years of talk therapy that didn't help, so we're doing this. "Trust me, she says." Then I ask "what about EMDR? That didn't work." SE is like EMDR but slower, gentler. "We're talking about your parts too," she says. So....I will trust her because it's a different approach, and I want to heal. Plus she's right about my years of talk therapy.

I forgot to say that I did sort of apologize to my T for asking her, and that's when she said it was okay, etc.

I don't want to start another new thread, so I will add something here. I know I'm doing better, but I was triggered by my T talking on the phone when she left the office. I went to the bathroom first, and didn't know she was leaving. We met in the hall. It was the first time I cried after a session in a couple of months! I know it's transference and about me, not her. It still hurts incredibly. I emailed her that I want to do SE about it next time instead of what we're doing. It's upsetting how quickly I reacted to being left out. That's old stuff, and I know I wasn't left out, but yes, T went back to her real life. She waved to me, but she was laughing on the phone! It seems she's on her phone all the time when she's coming or going. Like the rest of the world. My brain knows everything; it's my heart and body that are the problems!

So, I've got to use DBT skills for this. I can do that. I think. I know I can!
Please, no criticisms of my T or of me. I just have a need to get it out.
We're all "works in progress" here. Most of us, anyway.

[ultramar]

I can see your point, although perhaps this is where we part and disagree. Since the therapist answered the questions, and clearly was capable of not answering the question as she initially didn't, either the cl didn't breach the boundary, or the T was not clear about hte boundary.

I disagree -the logic seems to be that because she answered, no boundary was crossed. The therapist was inconsistent, yes, (and as someone else said, I think she may have just been taken by surprise and didn't think), but my point is that how the therapist responded has nothing to do with violating the original boundary/doesn't justify it. I don't think she was necessarily communicating that a boundary wasn't crossed by answering. This T has been crystal clear about not asking about her husband/family. Because she answered doesn't mean that that request has changed.

Although I agree with your last statement - if all those things are true, then the T should be addressing it. The client should haven't to worry about what is okay and not okay to say, ask, etc.

I don't think Rainbow has to worry about what is okay and not okay -it's been made clear. I think a goal here would be to not focus on can I or can't I in x situation, but consider the intent behind the boundary and honor that. If you consider why the boundary was put into place (and this was discussed, this is clear) then the client themselves can make informed decisions based on the intent, the reasoning behind the boundary. Eventually, hopefully, there won't be a need to worry about each and every situation that comes up, there will be the ability to honor the spirit, rather than the letter of the request. That's not happening yet, but it can be a goal.

[~EnlightenMe~]

In my opinion, Rainbow's therapist (and all therapists) are responsible for their own boundaries, and determining if one is crossed. If one is crossed, the therapist then is responsible for and quite capable of (hopefully)addressing the concern. Boundaries are different for everybody, some people guard theirs vigorously, some are really lenient, and everything else in between.

In my experience, using obsession as a descriptor may be a part of the experience, but that is only the surface behavior (as was duly noted). In my opinion, focusing on the therapist and his/her availability can be due to an ambivalent attachment style:
"Unable to use caregiver as a secure base, seeking proximity before separation occurs. Distressed on separation with ambivalence, anger, reluctance to warm to caregiver and return to play on return. Preoccupied with caregiver's availability, seeking contact but resisting angrily when it is achieved. Not easily calmed by stranger. In this relationship, the child always feels anxious because the caregiver's availability is never consistent."

If a caregiver's availability isn't consistent, and (possibly) the child is sensitive, then the child learns to engage in proximity/attachment seeking behaviors to a marked degree because their behavior works at times. The child then becomes preoccupied because of the inconsistency, and attachment seeking behaviors become the end-all/be-all. This is true for various behaviors, that inconsistency results in an escalation of whatever the behavior may be. Unfortunately, paired with this, the child's/adult's sense of worth, sense of self, etc., are intricately tied into not having a consistent safe base. This, in my view, is different than an addiction although similar characteristics may be present.

I don't know yet how this type of attachment disorder or other types of attachment disorders are overcome, I have some hope that they can be, though.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by ultramar

I disagree -the logic seems to be that because she answered, no boundary was crossed. The therapist was inconsistent, yes, (and as someone else said, I think she may have just been taken by surprise and didn't think), but my point is that how the therapist responded has nothing to do with violating the original boundary/doesn't justify it. I don't think she was necessarily communicating that a boundary wasn't crossed by answering. This T has been crystal clear about not asking about her husband/family. Because she answered doesn't mean that that request has changed.

I agree with you, that is I agree that I disagree with you and feralkitty. Doesn't determine who is right, and it's for Rainbow to decide how she feels about what each of us are saying and what she will learn.

I don't think Rainbow has to worry about what is okay and not okay -it's been made clear.

I guess it's not clear to me. It doesn't have to be clear to me. In responding though, I'm not able to accept that it is clear what the boundary is.

I think a goal here would be to not focus on can I or can't I in x situation, but consider the intent behind the boundary and honor that.

That's probably not where I would put my focus.

If you consider why the boundary was put into place (and this was discussed, this is clear) then the client themselves can make informed decisions based on the intent, the reasoning behind the boundary.

I'm still not accepting that hte boundary is clear, but assuming it is, I agree, the client can make an informed decision based on the intent. If the client's issues make it uncomfortable for her for some reason, that seems something to take to therapy. I guess what I mean is, IF I assume it was a mistake to ask (and I probably wouldn't do that before discussing it with the T), I would then discuss that to therapy and talk about it, not conclude that I just shouldn't have done it and force myself not to do it again.

YOu may very well be right. Maybe A boundary was crossed that shouldn't have been crossed. I don't know. But assuming that is true, I still see that as a therapeutic issue to discuss, not as a problem I need to control by myself. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What am I missing/

[tinyrabbit]

I'm very late to this thread but wanted to comment on this.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

It hurts me too much to think that therapy isn't somewhat about the relationship between my T and me. Most people agree, in one of the threads on the forum, that the relationship between them and their T is very important.

Do you also think it's wrong for therapy to be about her and me in the room? That's the way my T does therapy. It's NOT about her personal life, but about her and me.

I think therapy is about the relationship between you and her as a T. It's not about you and her as she is fully in her life.

I don't think it's wrong for therapy to be about you and her in the room, but you need to be expecting the right part of her in the room. Does that make sense?