[rainbow8]

I put the trigger warning on because I know others get panicky about the thought of ending therapy, and having to separate from their Ts.

Blur brought up individuation in my thread about my dreams. I know that I never completely separated from my Mom, and then she died. I know that while I was growing up she didn't make me feel safe or competent to explore the world, to make mistakes, to take risks. I still don't know who I am, and wonder if it's too late to find out. My H hasn't allowed me individuation either; I married him and then HE took care of me like my Mom used to do.

All my Ts have talked about this to some extent because it's part of the reason I don't want to quit therapy. They've all tried to encourage me to take risks in order to have a better quality of life.

I've progressed a lot in some areas, but I still panic at separating from my T. Now my H says I am NOT going to see her monthly when I quit. Of course he says things that he doesn't mean, and I know I can do what I want, but I'm trying to have a better marriage so I don't want to ignore his wishes about therapy (which I've done for about 18 years by continuing in spite of his opinion). He says I have 6 months to separate from my T.

So, I know I'm going to be discussing it with my T. She's already helping me by telling me not to email her, encouraging me to "live life", and telling me the SE is going to help. But is it going to work, or will I be miserable in the end? I don't know HOW to separate emotionally from her. I don't want to separate from her.

I know that the answer depends on making my real life more important, and getting my needs met by people in my life. But a T is special! No one is going to be like her.

So, how does someone successfully separate from their T? You're supposed to do it when you're ready, but I'm never ready. I'm getting there, but I don't think I'll ever be really READY to stop seeing her. This is causing me to panic already, and I'm trying to calm down and tell myself there's plenty of time left.

[Victoria'smom]

do you mind me asking what was your primary reason of seeing your therapist? I think the best thing is to make a plan of how you can Replace what you doing therapy.if you usually use your therapist as a sounding board to help you figure out better solutions for your problem you may want to look into journaling or self help books. you may want to find groups that's a no cost like a a but for different reasons. I would suggest keeping your time slot that you use for therapy to use for yourself after you finish therapy. you could also look for therapist that accepts your new insurance or is that on a sliding scale. you really need to sit down with your husband and explain why therapy is so important for you.

Rainbow, you know I relate to some of the issues you're having - with therapy, with T, with individuation...

But sometimes it seems your focus is so much on that... and I don't mean to sound harsh when I say this, but considering your posts and feelings lately - for instance the feelings of jealousy around your T's divorce - do you think the bigger issue could be your unhappiness in your marriage? I just feel that you should be doing things that you feel are right for YOU, not just to keep the peace with your husband... a husband who I think I'm right in remembering you've said does not give you what you need (emotionally and/or...)

It has taken you a lot of effort to get to where you are.. I'd just hate for you to have to pull the plug - on someone else's say so - just when you're getting somewhere.

Hope I'm not out of line, I just care about you

[Littlemeinside]

Perhaps you can bring this up in your DBT group?

[Asiablue]

I think this is a time where you need to practice mindfulness, don't worry about the if's and but's of 6 months away, concentrate on today or this following week. It will all be ok.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Miguel'smom

do you mind me asking what was your primary reason of seeing your therapist? I think the best thing is to make a plan of how you can Replace what you doing therapy.if you usually use your therapist as a sounding board to help you figure out better solutions for your problem you may want to look into journaling or self help books. you may want to find groups that's a no cost like a a but for different reasons. I would suggest keeping your time slot that you use for therapy to use for yourself after you finish therapy. you could also look for therapist that accepts your new insurance or is that on a sliding scale. you really need to sit down with your husband and explain why therapy is so important for you.

No, I don't mind the question but it's not so simple to answer it! Back in 1983, the reason was probably that I was depressed about a number of things in my life: my Mom had died recently, I had infertility problems, I was unhappy in general, and my best friend suggested I talk to someone. I was diagnosed with BPD, enough of a reason to need therapy! The reason I went from T to T was that I didn't want to give up the experience of having someone there just for me. I still had a lot of issues relating to low self-esteem, marriage, friends, depression, anxiety, etc. There was never one main reason. I wanted to learn about myself and feel better.

I'm not going to seek out another T after this one. My H knows why therapy is important to me. That's the problem. At least now it is. I've worked on my issues with Ts long enough. The attachment is the main reason I can't leave. The rest of your suggestions are good ones, and I thank you very much.

Originally Posted by just_some_girl

Rainbow, you know I relate to some of the issues you're having - with therapy, with T, with individuation...

But sometimes it seems your focus is so much on that... and I don't mean to sound harsh when I say this, but considering your posts and feelings lately - for instance the feelings of jealousy around your T's divorce - do you think the bigger issue could be your unhappiness in your marriage? I just feel that you should be doing things that you feel are right for YOU, not just to keep the peace with your husband... a husband who I think I'm right in remembering you've said does not give you what you need (emotionally and/or...)

It has taken you a lot of effort to get to where you are.. I'd just hate for you to have to pull the plug - on someone else's say so - just when you're getting somewhere.

Hope I'm not out of line, I just care about you

Thanks, jsg. That's why I'm working on my marriage--to make it happier for both my H and myself. He gives me some of what I need, and the rest I have to get elsewhere. If he weren't around now, my life would be in chaos! I have to believe that I can accomplish a lot in the next 6 months, both in therapy and outside. I was the kind of student who wrote my compositions in the morning of the day they were due, and got A's. I procrastinate until someone yells "Fire!" at me! So, maybe it's a good thing this is happening to me. It's a change from all my years of therapy.

Thanks for saying I'm getting somewhere. I think I'm getting somewhere BECAUSE my attitude, somewhat forced upon me by my T, is that she can never be who I want her to be, our relationship, as close as I may think it is, is only a business one (boy, it stings to right THAT word), and that her stated goal (and mine too, 3 years ago), is to enable me to leave her and live my day to day life without her.

Originally Posted by Littlemeinside

Perhaps you can bring this up in your DBT group?

Thanks, littleme. Yes, I can. I already used screaming in the car for my check-in last time. Now we have a new DBT leader but she's good, so hopefully this subject will fit in somewhere. The thing about DBT is that it's a skills class, so I just can't go in and discuss my problem with separating from my T unless it's relevant or unless it's specifically triggering me that week.

[nicoleflynn]

A client is the one who decides when to leave. No one should give you a time frame, etc...that just causes anxiety. You should feel safe to stay as long as you need to.

[lostin08]

Originally Posted by just_some_girl

Rainbow, you know I relate to some of the issues you're having - with therapy, with T, with individuation...

But sometimes it seems your focus is so much on that... and I don't mean to sound harsh when I say this, but considering your posts and feelings lately - for instance the feelings of jealousy around your T's divorce - do you think the bigger issue could be your unhappiness in your marriage? I just feel that you should be doing things that you feel are right for YOU, not just to keep the peace with your husband... a husband who I think I'm right in remembering you've said does not give you what you need (emotionally and/or...)

It has taken you a lot of effort to get to where you are.. I'd just hate for you to have to pull the plug - on someone else's say so - just when you're getting somewhere.

Hope I'm not out of line, I just care about you

I TOTALLY AGREE HERE!It is about you and not H! What is HE going to do to help your marriage??

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by lostin08

I TOTALLY AGREE HERE!It is about you and not H! What is HE going to do to help your marriage??

He doesn't think anything is wrong with our marriage. What he's doing is letting me plan trips, and going along with my plans. I have to change more than he does, or at least I have to change first. Then he will. When I'm nicer and stop complaining, I hope he'll be there more for me. When I put him first, he'll put me first. That's what I've been told by my Ts and friends.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

I think this is a time where you need to practice mindfulness, don't worry about the if's and but's of 6 months away, concentrate on today or this following week. It will all be ok.

I know mindfulness can help, but if I do that, then the 6 months will be over and I'll have to say good-bye to my T. I need to do more than practice mindfulness. Radical acceptance is helping me right now.

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

A client is the one who decides when to leave. No one should give you a time frame, etc...that just causes anxiety. You should feel safe to stay as long as you need to.

I would stay in T forever if I could afford it. That a client decides when to leave is true for most clients, but not for me, especially when the transference and attachment is interfering with my RL, instead of helping it. Also, I have to quit next year for financial reasons anyway. I thought maybe she'd give me a cheap rate, but she doesn't think she can.

[ECHOES]

It is a process, and T will help you through it. She is experienced with this and knows you well. Keep talking about it with her

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

It is a process, and T will help you through it. She is experienced with this and knows you well. Keep talking about it with her

Thank you, ECHOES. That's a very comforting response.

[Asiablue]

Rainbow, the 6months is going to be over anyway, worrying about it isn't going to slow down time. All that;s going to happen is you get in such a state about it that NO good work or preparation gets done. At least staying in the moment, lets you work somatically, lets your T lead the sessions and hopefully help you.
Maybe you could see this time scale as a focus, because you don't have endless sessions stretching into the horizon, they will be more precious and you will be less likely to fritter them away.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

But a T is special! No one is going to be like her.

((Rainbow))

That's true. There are special people in your life who can never be replaced.
But maybe there are other special people, people who are special in a different way, who you haven't met yet.

I'm trying to separate from Madame T. I haven't seen her since early April but she's still very much on my mind.

[TayQuincy]

I know what you're going through because I recently terminated therapy with my long-term therapist. I have been therapy-free for three months and I feel pretty good about it. When she first brought up the idea of termination, she gave me an approximate time of 6 months to taper off. I felt devastated! I was in a panic for a bit and then, with time, and help from T, I gradually was able to accept it and see it as not only an inevitable thing, but also a positive step towards personal growth. I had worked on so many things with her in therapy for all those years, but I was still very attached and the thought of losing her was unbearable to me. But I realized that everything changes in life, we cant go on in therapy forever, and most importantly, i wasn't really losing her. True, I wont be seeing her anymore, but she is still out there, and she will always care for me, as I will her. My therapist also will allow me to come back to her for short periods of therapy if i need to. I know I can go back if something comes up that I need help with. But, the truth is, I don't need regular therapy anymore. Life is never going to be easy, there are always problems and feelings to contend with. There is this feeling of freedom knowing that I can take care of myself, with a little help from my family and friends. My life is what I decide to make it. Honestly, living all those years in fear of termination was a waste of time. I am okay. my T does allow contact, but of course it's not therapy, just touching base and saying hi is great. We are still connected, but I have grown. So Rainbow, the way you feel about termination today may not be how you feel in 6 months. Give it time for the idea to sink in and for you to come to terms with it, and accept it.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by TayQuincy

True, I wont be seeing her anymore, but she is still out there, and she will always care for me, as I will her. My therapist also will allow me to come back to her for short periods of therapy if i need to. I know I can go back if something comes up that I need help with. But, the truth is, I don't need regular therapy anymore. Life is never going to be easy, there are always problems and feelings to contend with. There is this feeling of freedom knowing that I can take care of myself, with a little help from my family and friends. My life is what I decide to make it. Honestly, living all those years in fear of termination was a waste of time. I am okay. my T does allow contact, but of course it's not therapy, just touching base and saying hi is great. We are still connected, but I have grown. So Rainbow, the way you feel about termination today may not be how you feel in 6 months. Give it time for the idea to sink in and for you to come to terms with it, and accept it.

This is where I'd like to get to.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

This is where I'd like to get to.

Me too, CE. Thanks, Tay. I hope I can terminate my therapy as gracefully as you did.

[skysblue]

Rainbow - Books which I am finding very helpful are: "I Need Your Love - Is That True? How to Stop Seeking Love, Approval, and Appreciation and Start Finding Them Instead" by Byron Katie is a very powerful and different way of looking at life. She has written other books and on her website you will find videos of how she has talked people through some of their painful feelings.

Another book is by Marshall Rosenberg "Non-violent Communication: A Language of Life". It's all about discovering our needs and learning ways to communication our needs to others in a non-demanding way. Also, learning how to listen to others about their needs. There are also videos available on the web that demonstrate his method of relating to people.

I believe that these two approaches to the pain in our relationships in life would lessen and even eliminate the suffering we experience.

Rainbow, I wish I knew some words at would soothe you, i wish I could tell you this will be easy or some magic tablet we could swallow that could make us forget about our ts but unfortunately there isn't.
Your t said in six months the price could chnge for a session, she might be able to lower it. Maybe you will not have to quit and everything will work out, maybe things in real life with you and your husband will improve and you might not feel the need to see t anymore. i just hope that you will be kind to yourself and that you decide what you need and not your husband.
I do think that keeping busy with your art and doing some mindfulness will be good for you right now

[Perna]

Good article:

To separate does not mean to give up the close attachment that you feel toward parents or in any relationship. It does not mean having to be geographically separate. Separation means that you recognize that you are not the same as your loved significant other and that you react differently and think differently.

Individuation is the process that occurs after separation in which you grow your separate self, where you come to define who you are as an individual: I am funny, sensitive, carefree, serious, tough, anxious, kind, etc. You can only grow your self and discover who you are after you separate. This learning process involves success and failure and frustration. It is trial and error. It is research about who you are, what fits, what you like, don’t like, sometimes like, hate, sometimes hate. It is what makes you laugh, cry, run away, come close. It is who you are and who you are becoming. It is a lifelong process.

From: Separation/Individuation: Transition to Adulthood

[Wren_]

((((Rain)))) I have some of the same questions about separating so I don't have answers on this but hope to learn a little from your thread

[~EnlightenMe~]

Rainbow

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

My H hasn't allowed me individuation either; I married him and then HE took care of me like my Mom used to do.

It could be that's an important reason you married him. I know I picked my mate for some reasons that were reminiscent of prior relationships, and this was, unfortunately, really not in my best interest. C'est la vie. I think working on the individuation issue with your T could be the way to go. (My T calls individuation "differentiation", but I think it is the same thing.) Ask your T, "how do I separate from you?" I guess one thing to recognize is that no matter how you do it, it will not be painless. There is no easy way to end such a close and important relationship.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Now my H says I am NOT going to see her monthly when I quit... He says I have 6 months to separate from my T.

How does it feel to have your H decide these things for you? It would feel domineering and bossy to me, and make me want to rebel. What will happen if you don't meet his 6 month deadline? Will he leave?

Originally Posted by rainbow8

She's already helping me by telling me not to email her, encouraging me to "live life", and telling me the SE is going to help. But is it going to work, or will I be miserable in the end?

Well, it will certainly be painful, no matter what you do, but I think whether you are miserable in the future is up to you.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I have to change more than he does, or at least I have to change first. When I'm nicer and stop complaining, I hope he'll be there more for me. When I put him first, he'll put me first. That's what I've been told by my Ts and friends.

When will you be nicer and stop complaining? I think those are worthy goals! Is there a reason not to do this immediately? I'm not sure it is good to put the other person first. That does not sound like individuation to me. I think one can differentiate/individuate while still being nice to the other person, not complaining, being respectful, and trying to meet their needs--one needn't put them first, which sounds merged/enmeshed to me. I think it would be good to discuss this with your H instead of just taking your therapists' and friends' words for it. It sounds like you have an expectation of how your H's behavior will change in response to your changes. Things may not go that way... I hope you can have frank discussions with your H. One thing you've written about before is your H's tendency to be a hoarder, and live in a very cluttered space, and that you do not like this. I have wondered if this may be his response to your behavior of putting your Ts first over him and not trying to meet his needs, be nice to him, etc. Kind of a passive way of expressing his anger. I wonder if the change you may see in him is that if you are nicer, stop complaining, work on your end to improve the relationship, his clutter problem may improve.

Originally Posted by skysblue

Another book is by Marshall Rosenberg "Non-violent Communication: A Language of Life". It's all about discovering our needs and learning ways to communication our needs to others in a non-demanding way. Also, learning how to listen to others about their needs.

I so agree with this recommendation. There are also classes in non-violent communication in many areas. I took a couple in my city and definitely benefited. I have a CD set of Marshall talking about NVC, I think this covers much of the book. It is an easy way to become familiar with his method. The in person courses I took helped me learn and practice the techniques, which went beyond what I got from the book/CDs.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

Rainbow, the 6months is going to be over anyway, worrying about it isn't going to slow down time. All that;s going to happen is you get in such a state about it that NO good work or preparation gets done. At least staying in the moment, lets you work somatically, lets your T lead the sessions and hopefully help you.
Maybe you could see this time scale as a focus, because you don't have endless sessions stretching into the horizon, they will be more precious and you will be less likely to fritter them away.

That's good advice, Asiablue. I'll try to let my T lead the sessions. YOu're right that knowing I don't have unlimited time is making me think a little differently already!

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Rainbow, I wish I knew some words at would soothe you, i wish I could tell you this will be easy or some magic tablet we could swallow that could make us forget about our ts but unfortunately there isn't.
Your t said in six months the price could chnge for a session, she might be able to lower it. Maybe you will not have to quit and everything will work out, maybe things in real life with you and your husband will improve and you might not feel the need to see t anymore. i just hope that you will be kind to yourself and that you decide what you need and not your husband.
I do think that keeping busy with your art and doing some mindfulness will be good for you right now

Thanks, mls. This week went quickly for me so maybe I've already started putting my T is a different place in my mind. In some ways she hurt me, but not intentionally. I've been in denial of what therapy is because it felt so good to me. I think I'll be okay if I keep remembering what T is and what she is not.

Originally Posted by Perna

Good article:

From: Separation/Individuation: Transition to Adulthood

Thanks, Perna. I read it and I agree.

Originally Posted by tigergirl

((((Rain)))) I have some of the same questions about separating so I don't have answers on this but hope to learn a little from your thread

Thanks again, tigergirl. I hope the thread is helping you. Thanks for using my favorite heart!

Originally Posted by Antimatter

Rainbow

Thanks for the hugs, Antimatter.

Originally Posted by sunrise

It could be that's an important reason you married. I know I picked my mate for some reasons that were reminiscent of prior relationships, and this was, unfortunately, really not in my best interest. C'est la vie. I think working on the individuation issue with your T could be the way to go. (My T calls individuation "differentiation", but I think it is the same thing.) Ask your T, "how do I separate from you?" I guess one thing to recognize is that no matter how you do it, it will not be painless. There is no easy way to end such a close and important relationship. Yes, it will be hard no matter what, especially since I'm not going on to anyone else. I think it's important that I don't because that's been my way not to end t, by putting a new T in the same place as the one I'm replacing.

How does it feel to have your H decide these things for you? It would feel domineering and bossy to me, and make me want to rebel. What will happen if you don't meet his 6 month deadline? Will he leave?
If he really decided these things for me, I would have quit t about 16 years ago! He knows it's hard for me. Nothing will happen if I don't meet his deadline, but it will cost more money and we have to watch our finances .
Well, it will certainly be painful, no matter what you do, but I think whether you are miserable in the future is up to you.

When will you be nicer and stop complaining? I think those are worthy goals! Is there a reason not to do this immediately?No, but the complaining comes out anyway. I'm trying to stop it. I'm not sure it is good to put the other person first. That does not sound like individuation to me. I think one can differentiate/individuate while still being nice to the other person, not complaining, being respectful, and trying to meet their needs--one needn't put them first, which sounds merged/enmeshed to me. I think it would be good to discuss this with your H instead of just taking your therapists' and friends' words for it.I do discuss it with my H. Sort of. It's hard to have a meaningful conversation with him. It sounds like you have an expectation of how your H's behavior will change in response to your changes. I know his behavior may not change. There are some things he's just not capable of, and I know no one can make another person change.Things may not go that way... I hope you can have frank discussions with your H. One thing you've written about before is your H's tendency to be a hoarder, and live in a very cluttered space, and that you do not like this. I have wondered if this may be his response to your behavior of putting your Ts first over him and not trying to meet his needs, be nice to him, etc. Kind of a passive way of expressing his anger. I wonder if the change you may see in him is that if you are nicer, stop complaining, work on your end to improve the relationship, his clutter problem may improve. I don't know. He says he's a hoarder because his mother threw away all his baseball cards when he was a kid, and he is still angry about that.

I so agree with this recommendation. There are also classes in non-violent communication in many areas. I took a couple in my city and definitely benefited. I have a CD set of Marshall talking about NVC, I think this covers much of the book. It is an easy way to become familiar with his method. The in person courses I took helped me learn and practice the techniques, which went beyond what I got from the book/CDs.

I'm going to get this book! Thanks, sunrise--for all of your comments.