[Yearning0723]

Sometimes I wonder if I did make up all the stuff my mom did to me, just because I was a screwed up kid who read lots of stories about kids being abused and maybe wanted the attention that would come with making that kind of allegation. How can we know if our memories are true or not? We can't.

So, she called me. After five days. I wanted to call her. In fact, I've been thinking about calling her every single day. But I wanted to give her some time to cool off first, and I wanted to figure out what to say so we wouldn't just start fighting about stuff. I also wanted to run some stuff by T first, and we're not talking until Monday, so I thought I would give it some time.

Giving it some time was a bad idea. My mom was so hurt that I hadn't called her; she'd expected me to and as I'd predicted, every single day I didn't call hurt her heart a little more and made her even more scared that our relationship was over. I told T this situation was time-sensitive; T told me it was just my anxiety making me think it was urgent and it actually wasn't. But I know my mom.

So, the gist of it - she told me how much pain she was in from her daughter leaving her and not speaking to her for two years and how much it took its toll on her, in her relationship with me, with my stepdad, with my brother, on her mental health, and how much money she spent fighting in court to get custody of me again, and how she will be paying off the debt she incurred for the rest of her life and how she almost lost the house because of that. And I felt so, so bad and apologized over and over and then she started crying again.

I tried to tell her how I felt, how her words in my head calling me a manipulator and a liar never went away and how much that hurt me. She asked me what else she could think when I was manipulating and lying about what she did to me. I know she truly believes that; she truly thinks she never hurt me and I just made it all up. And maybe she's right. How would I know?

I know I hurt her. I know she is simply incapable of seeing my pain. It's not her fault; she just isn't. She admits she wasn't a perfect parent and she made some mistakes, but she thinks all the stuff I said about her was really just my father manipulating me into believing she hurt me. That, at least, I know isn't true.

But maybe she didn't kick me out. Maybe I did just leave. Maybe I was the one who chose to stay away for no reason. How can I know?

She won't come to a session with T; she thinks it will make no difference and we just need to put the past behind us and move on and these are issues I need to work through on my own. She doesn't want to lose me. I can't leave her. And yet, this. I don't know how to just put all this behind us. But she absolutely will not do a session with T and I don't know what other choices there are. Maybe nothing.

I told her I would take some time to process this and give her some time to do the same and I would call her early next week. I told her I love her and she is super important to me and I'm not going to leave her. I don't think she believes that, but it's true. I love her. I know she loves me. I can't lose her. But I don't know what to do.

[healingme4me]

You mentioned, it's taken a toll on your mothers, emotional health. Does she have a diagnosis, herself?

What I read, of what you've written, is guilt inducing statements. Fear of your abandoning her, a sense of obligation for all she has struggled with, and now your second guessing your own truth in a fog of shamed statements.

Your honesty of your own feelings is met by a world of tears instead of, a bunch of facts supportive of her own truth. Factually stating, back and forth leads to better resolution of past. You don't seem to want to shame her, just say listen, this is how it was for me. Please respect, this is how it felt. Dismissing your reality, does noone any good. Blaming your father, for how you felt, does noone any good. When she blames your father, it implies that you cannot think for yourself and also doesn't acknowledge the pain, that was very real, for you.
And, if that past turmoil was used to blame, a dysfunction in her marriage to your stepdad, then I say, stay the course in therapy.



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[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

You mentioned, it's taken a toll on your mothers, emotional health. Does she have a diagnosis, herself?

What I read, of what you've written, is guilt inducing statements. Fear of your abandoning her, a sense of obligation for all she has struggled with, and now your second guessing your own truth in a fog of shamed statements.

Your honesty of your own feelings is met by a world of tears instead of, a bunch of facts supportive of her own truth. Factually stating, back and forth leads to better resolution of past. You don't seem to want to shame her, just say listen, this is how it was for me. Please respect, this is how it felt. Dismissing your reality, does noone any good. Blaming your father, for how you felt, does noone any good. When she blames your father, it implies that you cannot think for yourself and also doesn't acknowledge the pain, that was very real, for you.
And, if that past turmoil was used to blame, a dysfunction in her marriage to your stepdad, then I say, stay the course in therapy.



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No official diagnosis, but I know it was devastating for her. I mean, how could it not be?

I wanted her to come with me to do a joint session with T. She refuses. I don't know what else we can do to repair this.

What are you hoping to get from the session? IMO you would be in for a big down fall if you are looking for her to make changes in that meeting or several meetings withe your therapist. Most everyone here with parent issues, and/or attachment issues keep hoping, wishing, and trying to change mom. Then she will love me the way I need. Or I have to figure out how to change myself then she will accept me. Only, we've been trying to shape ourselves since we were in the crib and wearing diapers to get her attention. All of these years of misery and nothing has worked. Or T," I want you to be my mom." The way out for me was to accept my mom for who she is: a mom who could not and/or would not meet my needs, and cannot/will not meet my needs in the now or in the future. It was painful. What she failed to provide I had to get from somewhere else. For me it came from my therapist. And, now I provide for myself. At some point I hope to have a SO to get it, at least some of it from. When you are the repository for family truth, and you are the only one that has memories you feel like a liar. No, they have minds that allow them to not lie, but truly forget. You memories are your memories, don't let others take that away from you. Don't bear their quilt.

Again it's only my opinion. If it doesn't seem to apply to your path please ignore.

Happy journeying.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Goingtogetthere

What are you hoping to get from the session? IMO you would be in for a big down fall if you are looking for her to make changes in that meeting or several meetings withe your therapist. Most everyone here with parent issues, and/or attachment issues keep hoping, wishing, and trying to change mom. Then she will love me the way I need. Or I have to figure out how to change myself then she will accept me. Only, we've been trying to shape ourselves since we were in the crib and wearing diapers to get her attention. All of these years of misery and nothing has worked. Or T," I want you to be my mom." The way out for me was to accept my mom for who she is: a mom who could not and/or would not meet my needs, and cannot/will not meet my needs in the now or in the future. It was painful. What she failed to provide I had to get from somewhere else. For me it came from my therapist. And, now I provide for myself. At some point I hope to have a SO to get it, at least some of it from. When you are the repository for family truth, and you are the only one that has memories you feel like a liar. No, they have minds that allow them to not lie, but truly forget. You memories are your memories, don't let others take that away from you. Don't bear their quilt.

Again it's only my opinion. If it doesn't seem to apply to your path please ignore.

Happy journeying.

I've been trying really hard to just accept her for who she is, and I think I have, as much as I possibly can. I understand her; I have compassion for her; I realize what she can and cannot provide and I'm okay with that. I have other people who can meet my needs.

The session I wanted wouldn't be about getting her to "admit stuff" or "change". I just really want her to hear my pain in an environment that feels safe for me. But it's not going to happen...I don't know what else I can do to make this work.

[feralkittymom]

Your mother has perfected guilt tripping to an art form. Regardless of the sympathy you may have for her, her behavior is inappropriate, shame-inducing, and dysfunctional. You are not responsible for her mental health--or lack thereof. Kids don't just leave home if all is well--the need for security is too high.

I know you think you love her, but that's not what I hear. I don't think you have any idea what real parental love feels like. It's not uncommon for abused kids to mistake abuse, control and desperation for love. And to misplace their trust out of the need for love.

I was often abused "in the name of love." I had no idea what emotions really looked like. They were all mixed up. I started to put the pieces together by watching TV and reading fiction. And much, much later by experiencing parental love from my T.

You can keep sympathy for her and also keep your distance. In fact, it will be easier to think kindly towards her the more you disengage from her. But right now, you are enmeshed in a very dysfunctional way. Neither of you can recover while enmeshed. And the hard truth is that she may or may not choose to recover. You can only control your own recovery. Everything else is just a distraction.

[Yearning0723]

Her idea is that I left to go live with my dad because I didn't like the rules in her house. And how do I know that isn't true? In my mind, she kicked me out; in her mind, I left of my own accord, and I can see how she might see it that way.

I read in my psychology textbook that the more vivid a memory you have, the more likely it is that you've embellished it somehow. Memory isn't like a video camera; it's constantly changing instead of just having one image. Sometimes I feel like I did exaggerate/embellish/make stuff up or remember it wrong. How can I know?

[feralkittymom]

You can't know to an objective certainty. But it's a distraction to look for objective certainty as a justification for your feelings. The need to justify yourself is a problem in and of itself. The question isn't whose reality is "correct," but rather why can't you accept your reality?

[HazelGirl]

Your mother is a narcissist, completely. Please do some real research into it and see her for what she really is. No, she literally is unable to see the bad she has done. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. She is just unable to face it and admit to it. It's very common in narcissism. And she is only focusing on herself, while making you feel terrible. That's not fair to you at all.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

Her idea is that I left to go live with my dad because I didn't like the rules in her house. And how do I know that isn't true? In my mind, she kicked me out; in her mind, I left of my own accord, and I can see how she might see it that way.

She, personally, dropped you off. That's on her, hun.


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[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

Your mother is a narcissist, completely. Please do some real research into it and see her for what she really is. No, she literally is unable to see the bad she has done. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. She is just unable to face it and admit to it. It's very common in narcissism. And she is only focusing on herself, while making you feel terrible. That's not fair to you at all.

Could be borderline.....

Fear of abandonment, factors in. rejection as shame mechanism.

Whatever, the dx,, important thing now, is for OP,, to own her truth.

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[unaluna]

Yeah my mother just wants to put the past behind us too. It would be nice if she could remember what that past was. For all the effort youre putting into your relationship with her right now, why isnt it better? Why is it always an uphill struggle? What are you doing wrong NOW?? I would guess nothing. I kept knocking at that door myself. I finally asked my mother why she even invited me to holiday dinners - she made all the plans with my brother, then called me. She said, well we dont want you to feel left out. Well, i wouldnt feel left out if i werent in fact left out!! She has only ever called me daughter sarcastically. I never noticed that until yes she did come to t with me - after my begging her for over 20 years - and current t asked her, "hasnt hankster been a goid daughter to you?" And she said "DAW-TERRRR??" like Jabba the Hutt. Like it was a foreign word. Can your mom handle you being gay? It could be just that simple. I think it was with mine.

I'm sorry Yearning, but I think that is all a part of the process. She can't hear your pain. Your pain is connected to her. If she accepts that your pain is legitimate. What does that say about her. She can't go there. It's much to frightening for her. Do you truly believe if you say what you need to say in front of her in a safe environment, it will move you forward? You may not get the conscious or subconscious response that you want. I hope it does. IMO you will have to mourn with your therapist what she can never give you. And I kid you not, it will be pure hell, yet I believe you and others can do it. You have to walk through the gutter to climb out. I was in a similar place as you are. And, it was this same "last piece" for me that held me back. Eventually, I got to freedom on the other side. And, I'm rooting for you no matter what.

[growlycat]

I can relate to having parents who want nothing to do with the therapeutic process. It hurts to go it alone. Take care!

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by hankster

Yeah my mother just wants to put the past behind us too. It would be nice if she could remember what that past was. For all the effort youre putting into your relationship with her right now, why isnt it better? Why is it always an uphill struggle? What are you doing wrong NOW?? I would guess nothing. I kept knocking at that door myself. I finally asked my mother why she even invited me to holiday dinners - she made all the plans with my brother, then called me. She said, well we dont want you to feel left out. Well, i wouldnt feel left out if i werent in fact left out!! She has only ever called me daughter sarcastically. I never noticed that until yes she did come to t with me - after my begging her for over 20 years - and current t asked her, "hasnt hankster been a goid daughter to you?" And she said "DAW-TERRRR??" like Jabba the Hutt. Like it was a foreign word. Can your mom handle you being gay? It could be just that simple. I think it was with mine.

It actually isn't about being gay. Ironically, that's the one thing she's fine with.

So okay, I agree a session with T might not be the way to go. But then what do I do? I can't take back all those thoughts and feelings we put out there. Those thoughts and feeling are still there and I can't just pretend those words were never spoken. Pretending the past never happened obviously hasn't worked so well up to this point. So I can't just do nothing and try to move on and forget.

Can I???

[Asiablue]

It seems to me that you are scrambling around trying to help people who don't want to be helped. They want to be rescued. You're trying to fix an unfixable situation because the problem isn't you. It isn't what you do or don't do, did or didn't do that is the problem. THEY are the problem and it's one huge immoveable problem that you cannot fix, ever.

You will never ever make your mother happy. Ever. Because she is not happy herself, and she is projecting that onto you. She is making you her rescuer. She is making her own daughter responsible for HER emotions. That is impossible.

So you can spend all your energy and life pacifying someone at your own emotional well-beings expense.... or you can say "F. it mother, deal with it yourself, this isn't my problem" and get from distance from it.

Until you put those boundaries in, until you start really believing that you deserve love and respect and to not be treated like the family's scapegoat then you are going to be continually trying to fix the unfixable.
You are starting to put some boundaries in by not calling your mother and she is punishing you for it. Guilting you into doing what she's always liked; begging forgiveness and declaring your love and allegiance to her.

Trust me when i tell you this, the more boundaries you put in, the more respect you get for yourself, the more you distance from her and don't allow yourself to be manipulated into meeting her needs , the more healthy you get.... the more you will see your mom spit the dummy. Because you will be changing some deeply ingrained dynamics that served her well. She is going to tantrum and manipulate even more in an attempt to bring you into line. You getting emotionally healthy is going to be very uncomfortable for her. But it something you cannot avoid. And it isn't your fault.

[Middlemarcher]

Your descriptions and stories of your mother sound so much like mine. Asiablue's post really resonates with me. As I began to put more boundaries into place with my mother (when I was your age, before therapy), the guilt trips and manipulation got worse and worse. It was hard for me to stop caving in to that. But it was good for my mental health and improved the interactions that I do have with my mother.

Speaking from my personal experience, I did a lot of questioning, minimizing, denying of the trauma of my childhood when I got into therapy. I think this was a defense that kept me from acknowledging my anger about it (the anger was there, though, boiling and seething, though I didn't know it) and kept me from mourning for what I can never go back and get. In your posts, I see a lot of internalizing and guilt. I seem to remember you saying that you used to be very angry until you learned to have compassion for your mother. But you can be both at the same time. I wonder if the compassion for your mother isn't a way of shielding yourself from feeling some very justified anger; that's how it was for me, anyway.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

It actually isn't about being gay. Ironically, that's the one thing she's fine with.

So okay, I agree a session with T might not be the way to go. But then what do I do? I can't take back all those thoughts and feelings we put out there. Those thoughts and feeling are still there and I can't just pretend those words were never spoken. Pretending the past never happened obviously hasn't worked so well up to this point. So I can't just do nothing and try to move on and forget.

Can I???

So what if what is going on is this: She cant forgive herself for what she did. Its always in the back of her mind. Thats why she doesnt want to go to a t - shes afraid she would have to admit it. It is an inefficient way of dealing with her guilt but it "works" - she just dumps the guilt on you. You cant really process it because its not yours! You can try to carry it around with you but it will weigh you down. So ask yourself - are you going to limit yourself because of your mothers limitations?

[RTerroni]

I try to talk to my mom about what goes on at Therapy sessions but it seems to always go badly.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

It seems to me that you are scrambling around trying to help people who don't want to be helped. They want to be rescued. You're trying to fix an unfixable situation because the problem isn't you. It isn't what you do or don't do, did or didn't do that is the problem. THEY are the problem and it's one huge immoveable problem that you cannot fix, ever.

You will never ever make your mother happy. Ever. Because she is not happy herself, and she is projecting that onto you. She is making you her rescuer. She is making her own daughter responsible for HER emotions. That is impossible.

So you can spend all your energy and life pacifying someone at your own emotional well-beings expense.... or you can say "F. it mother, deal with it yourself, this isn't my problem" and get from distance from it.

Until you put those boundaries in, until you start really believing that you deserve love and respect and to not be treated like the family's scapegoat then you are going to be continually trying to fix the unfixable.
You are starting to put some boundaries in by not calling your mother and she is punishing you for it. Guilting you into doing what she's always liked; begging forgiveness and declaring your love and allegiance to her.

Trust me when i tell you this, the more boundaries you put in, the more respect you get for yourself, the more you distance from her and don't allow yourself to be manipulated into meeting her needs , the more healthy you get.... the more you will see your mom spit the dummy. Because you will be changing some deeply ingrained dynamics that served her well. She is going to tantrum and manipulate even more in an attempt to bring you into line. You getting emotionally healthy is going to be very uncomfortable for her. But it something you cannot avoid. And it isn't your fault.

I know that most of this is my issue to fix with T instead of something I need to fix with my mother; I know that to a certain extent it is something I need to fix inside myself and work through on my own. And I know that the thing I'm going to have to work on most is being boundaried and asserting my own needs and taking some space when necessary.

But that's not my issue right now. My issue is that I have a mother who I want a relationship with. Right now, there is a rupture in our relationship because we were honest with each other about our feelings. I don't know how to resolve this rupture in the short term. We said some stuff we can't take back; I can't just call her up tomorrow and pretend stuff never happened. So I don't know how to resolve that part in the practical here and now. That's really my issue.

[Yearning0723]

I feel like I'm screwing everything up these days. A couple weeks ago, I lost a really close friendship (which I think was her issue, not mine, because I was trying to insert some boundaries she didn't like, but still); I screwed things up with T by emailing her even though I don't think she's mad at me (and probably will forget all about any anger she might have had by the time we have our phone check in and I'm sobbing hysterically about losing my mother again); and now this situation with my mother that I have no idea how to get out of. I don't just want to end the relationship. She's my mother; she's the only one I have and I love her and I need her. I went two years without seeing her and I never want to go through that pain ever again. Having her treat me badly is better than not having her at all.

[Asiablue]

The problem is, i don't think there is a short-term fix Yearning. All the putting in boundaries, taking space etc it's already happening, you're already in it, it isn't some far away concept for the future and there's not even any way of going back really. And i don't think anyone here is suggesting for one minute that you need not have a relationship with your mother.

Your mother has you held to ransom over this. She knows that subtle threat of "if you don't do this for me, then you can't be my daughter" is enough to reign you in every time. That the fear of disconnection is enough to make you play by the rules. She is banking on the fact that you will meet her needs and take all the blame and responsibility just so you can still be her daughter.

If you want things to get better between you, then you could try speaking to her preferably at your house or at a neutral location, just you and her and lay out some rules for communication. Then discuss key issues. Whether that's mutual boundaries or how you both want to conduct your adult to adult mother/daughter relationship. It doesn't sound like you're going to get anywhere with her by trying to force heart to heart discussions, maybe in the future that can happen. So can you both concentrate on doing fun things together, just the two of you? Try rebuilding your relationship but this time with clear, discussed boundaries?

Maybe once a friendship develops, and trust deepens, then she will be ready to open up more about the past, but right now it sounds like she's on constant defence, and you are constantly looking for evidence of love, validation that she was crap and she's not ready to do or see that. But maybe if you can put all that to the side while in her company and ask her for a fresh start, then you both and build something stronger?

It shouldn't be all or nothing Yearning. You don't need to be treated badly just to have a mother. And there will come a time when you're strong enough in yourself to see that.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

The problem is, i don't think there is a short-term fix Yearning. All the putting in boundaries, taking space etc it's already happening, you're already in it, it isn't some far away concept for the future and there's not even any way of going back really. And i don't think anyone here is suggesting for one minute that you need not have a relationship with your mother.

Your mother has you held to ransom over this. She knows that subtle threat of "if you don't do this for me, then you can't be my daughter" is enough to reign you in every time. That the fear of disconnection is enough to make you play by the rules. She is banking on the fact that you will meet her needs and take all the blame and responsibility just so you can still be her daughter.

If you want things to get better between you, then you could try speaking to her preferably at your house or at a neutral location, just you and her and lay out some rules for communication. Then discuss key issues. Whether that's mutual boundaries or how you both want to conduct your adult to adult mother/daughter relationship. It doesn't sound like you're going to get anywhere with her by trying to force heart to heart discussions, maybe in the future that can happen. So can you both concentrate on doing fun things together, just the two of you? Try rebuilding your relationship but this time with clear, discussed boundaries?

Maybe once a friendship develops, and trust deepens, then she will be ready to open up more about the past, but right now it sounds like she's on constant defence, and you are constantly looking for evidence of love, validation that she was crap and she's not ready to do or see that. But maybe if you can put all that to the side while in her company and ask her for a fresh start, then you both and build something stronger?

It shouldn't be all or nothing Yearning. You don't need to be treated badly just to have a mother. And there will come a time when you're strong enough in yourself to see that.

Thanks, Asia. Your posts are always particularly illuminating.

I guess my issue is that I don't know what "key issues" I need to discuss or what the boundaries I need are. I feel like we need to create a foundation on which to rebuild our relationship, but I don't know what that foundation needs to consist of, since literally everything was just fine for both of us until Sunday. It really was; I was getting my needs met, she was getting hers met, and all was well. But then this happened completely out of nowhere, and we both realized there was a lot of stuff hiding inside us that was still there that was preventing this relationship from continuing to go "just fine".

[Yearning0723]

And the thing I just can't get out of my head is what if it really is all my fault? What if she didn't actually hurt me and I just embellished/exaggerated/made stuff up because I really didn't like the rules in her house? I've considered this periodically over the past few years; sometimes I think things happened that didn't make sense to me, so I wove those things into a cohesive narrative and cast her as the villain, when really we were both at fault, and me probably more so.

Because the fact of the matter is, even if she did "kick me out," she was angry and quickly repentant, and I was the one who chose to stay away. I can see how much that hurt her and how much of a toll it took on her emotionally, and she did spend so much time and money trying to get me back, but I had this idea in my head that she was this abusive monster who hurt me, so I refused. What if that idea is just a fantasy, because I wanted attention or simply because I wanted to make sense of my own actions?

[Asiablue]

yes, and things like that will continue to happen until you both find a way to communicate effectively in a way that is respectful and authentic for you both.

I think with therapy you will learn how to do that. I think if you work out with your therapist what you want from your relationship with your mom right now then that could help. MAybe the problem is in expectation. What do you and your mom want and expect from having a relationship with each other? Is that something each is willing to contribute to the other? Are there certain "flash" subjects that need to be respectively avoided for now.

If all your mom can cope with is surface level stuff, then could you accept that and work out the deeper hurt and pain in therapy? Can you work out in therapy or at least before talking to your mom bout this, what your boundaries are, how you want to conduct a relationship with her?