Talked to my mother about a session with T and it went very, very badly

I can try...

Here's the thing Yearning, even if that was all true (which i don't think it is) then that would have to mean you had severe problems underlying and children with happy secure home lives just don't make stuff like that up, they are too busy being happy and secure and playing in the yard. Happy kids don't need extra attention, happy kids who have happy parents who provide love and security don't need to go looking for it elsewhere or create fantasies.

So if you were making it all up... then there was still something going wrong, somewhere. But the fact is, you are not making it all up, things happened that shouldn't have. The proof is in your emotions not your memories. If you feel unhappy, unloved, insecure, terrified, abused etc etc then you were. Your feelings are your proof. And the reason you are denying it to yourself is because the people around you would rather it was your fault than look in the mirror and see whose fault it really is.

My parents' divorce was traumatic enough to make me feel unloved, unhappy, and insecure, and having a younger brother with autism who needed much more supervision and attention than I did probably compounded that problem. So it could be that those were the things in my life that created all my anxiety.

And this makes sense. My anxiety got really serious when I was five, and I remember the event that caused it to skyrocket, which involved both of my parents forgetting whose day it was to pick me up from kindergarten, so I was sitting there for about half an hour before my teacher realized they weren't coming and asked me who to call; I didn't know so she called both of them. They came to my school and were yelling so loudly at each other in front of me and my teacher that the principal called the police. That is where my anxiety started, because of a high conflict divorce, not because of abuse.

It's just crazy-making to think that all these memories I have of things she said or did to me might not have ever happened or might have been blown out of proportion in my imagination. Anxiety because of my parents' divorce and creating fantasies because of a lack of attention stemming from that is not anywhere near as bad as anxiety because of abuse. And if the former is true but I went around telling people the latter because the narrative is just more pleasant that way...well, that's unforgivable.

You're judging these events in your mind thru the lens of an 18 year old and not as the 5 year old kid who was experiencing it. At 5 years old you simply don't have the capacity to see it in context. If some of the things happened to you now, like a parent forgetting to pick you up, you'd be standing in the street pissed off but you wouldn't be thinking you were literally going to die because the people who sustain your life have abandoned you and that means uncertain death. For a little kid things are life and death. And that's why they are so much more traumatic for them.

And, if (big If) you did make abuse fantasies cos you thought you'd deserve help more is that really on the grand scale of things unforgivable? Really? It's up there with terrorism, murder, rape, torture, war????? No, of course it isn't. Lots of people question their abuse, neglect etc was it really that bad? That's natural.

From the events you've written about here, i can say without a doubt you were brought up with emotional neglect, emotional abuse and some physical abuse. Isn't that enough?

Are you waiting for the people who neglected and abused you to admit to it? Will it only be real once they do? Because you and other abuse survivors will be waiting along time for that to happen.

Sometimes I just wonder if the events I've written about here really did happen or just in my head. Because it isn't a nice clean logical narrative of my parents hurting me --> I told someone about it --> I got help.

It actually goes like this: I wrote a story about a kid being abused and gave it to a teacher (why? I don't know anymore - I wouldn't ascribe any particular motivation to it these days - I wrote stories all the time and gave them to people so there might not have been any great meaning to it) --> the teacher showed it to the principal who said she was worried about me and asked if it was autobiographical --> I said no (which was true, since the story didn't describe anything that ever happened to me) --> I told my stepdad or the teacher told my stepdad (I forget who) about the story --> he got very angry and slapped me because I was "telling lies about our family" (definitely wrong, but he was angry, and if it had just been that one time...) --> he told my mother about it and she got very angry and cried and told me she couldn't believe what I'd done to our family and I wasn't her daughter anymore and she would wash her hands of me --> she took me to my dad's store and left me there.

It was THEN (I think) that I reinterpreted all the things that happened in the past as "abusive" and that was the story I decided to run with, and even a week later when my mother wanted me back, I refused to go, because in my head I'd built up this image of her as an abusive monster.

It might have just been that I was ashamed of what I did and how much I'd upset her and couldn't bear to face her and face what I did, so it was easier to just follow through with the lie.

It sounds a lot better to tell people, "My mother kicked me out when I was thirteen," and have them say, "Oh, you poor thing!" than for me to say, "Well, I lied(?) about her abusing me, and she told me she would drop me off at my dad's because she was angry, and rightfully so, and then she got over her anger within the week but I continued to hold that grudge for two years."

If I really did lie about her abusing me, and told everyone in the world about it and got Children's Aid involved, which could have meant her losing my brother, and put her heavily into debt fighting for me in court, and ignored my own mother for two years based on a fantasy...that is pretty unforgivable.

I mean, how can I know?

Ok, let's go with it. So you were 13 years old and told a massive lie. Now what? Is what you did as a CHILD unforgivable?

Let me tell you something. If my 13 year old told a story like that and inferred something like that was going on at home, my first instinct wouldn't be to send them away, it would be to bring them closer. Would i be angry? Hell yeah, but i'd be angry because i was embarrassed that i'd failed as a parent and now the school knew it and also because my child was hurting and i'd missed it.
I would talk to my little girl and tell her she wasn't in trouble but we need to get to the bottom of it, either she could talk to me or an auntie or a teacher or a therapist. Shaming my child wouldn't be on my agenda.

How long do you want to keep punishing yourself for that incident? Till your 20? 30? 45? 80? You can't change what happened no matter how much you flagellate yourself over it. So maybe it's better to try and forgive yourself. And for what it's worth, i still don't think a happy child does that, you were trying to communicate something.

This is what an emotionally mature parent would probably do. But my mother isn't an emotionally mature parent. Immature doesn't equal abusive, though...

I know I don't need to keep punishing myself for this (although my mother seems to think otherwise). I guess I just wish I knew what the truth was, because I have all these thoughts and stories in my head which are very traumatic and frightening, but what's even more traumatic and frightening is not knowing if my brain is being honest with me or not, or if I can trust it. Because if it's lying to me about this, what else is it lying to me about?

I know what you're saying makes sense, Asia, and I appreciate it. I guess it's just...my brain. It's stuck on this.

I guess I'll keep punishing myself so long as I continue to go around telling people my mom kicked me out when I was thirteen, because it's simpler and easier to swallow than the truth. I told this story to someone yesterday because it felt right to me. It felt more right when she asked me about my relationship with my mother to say that she kicked me out than to tell this whole complicated story that may or may not be true and makes very little sense. And I got empathy for it. And that felt good. So I keep telling it.

I don't know your mother or your specifics obviously, but I will give you my gut opinion. Your mother seems very manipulative to me. She obviously intended to guilt you into forgiving her. It sounds like she's also managed to blame you for causing problems for her in all of her relationships, and her financial struggles! The problem with that is, it's just absolute bullsh1t. A child is not responsible for their parents relationships or finances.

Reading your post, the story felt very familiar to me. The classic narcissist blames their children (or one child) for all of their problems, they will never be able to see they are wrong in anything. A classic abused child is often full of self-doubt, because out of self-preservation they want to believe their parent is not so bad. Growing up a child relies on their parents for food and shelter, there are psychological mechanisms in place (disassociation for example) that makes abused children often reach the conclusion they are bad and to blame for their abuse vs. facing the very frightening awareness that their parents are in fact too selfish to be able to really care about them. Classic abused children often grows up with low self-esteem feeling bad and damaged as a result, often unable to open up and have close intimate relationships without intense fear that they will be abandoned, since their parent(s) have displayed that they must meet certain criteria to be acceptable, vs. showing unconditional love, which is the healthy secure response.

Your mom won't work on it with you, won't go to therapy, doesn't seem to care about your feelings, seems instead out to make you feel guilty, blames you for all of her personal failures... she sounds like my mom, who is severely mentally ill, and has been running this same pattern of blame, refusing to go to therapy, and gaslighting my whole life. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

I have a relationship with my mother and it is quite sweet. Best it's ever been. The reason is she can say whatever she wants and do what ever she wants all within reason and it no longer affects me the way it use to. The past abuse and arguments can come and go in my head without any angst. She's still my mum and I love her dearly. She's just not the mum I always wanted and felt I needed to feel good about me and about my life. I accept her as she is. It was the process I spoke about in my previous email. It is the transference between you and your therapist that I believe will get you to the other side with mum. I think that's the practicality of it in the here and now: what if I blow it like I did with mum...and others? You have to go through it with whomever is available. Your mother is not available and may never be. You can still have a relationship with her. Can you accept that Yearning?

As I've said before only my opinions and thoughts.

[QUOTE=Yearning0723;3602137]This is what an emotionally mature parent would probably do. But my mother isn't an emotionally mature parent. Immature doesn't equal abusive, though...



Are you sure about that?

Do you know of or hear of many emotionally mature parents abusing there children? Abusers abuse to fill a need in themselves, because they have things missing in their own psyche.

The very act of being emotionally immature means you can't parent effectively. And emotional neglect IS abuse. And whether she meant to or not, she was abusive and still is. Someone can be a good person at heart but end up neglecting their children. It's not all black and white.

My mother isn't a bad person. She is loves her children, she is generally a pretty nice person with a good heart. But she is very selfish, the world kind revolves around her and she put herself before her children many times. She emotionally neglected and manipulated me to a terrible extent and still tries to. She has no idea that she does this. She does it because she's just surviving in the way she knows how. She herself is damaged and emotionally immature. But that doesn't make her any less responsible or negligent because when she had children she had a responsibility to them and she chose not live up to those responsibilities.

[QUOTE=Asiablue;3602195]I'm sorry your mother is like that too, Asia.

Even if we say my mom was abusive/neglectful because of her emotional immaturity, that doesn't necessarily mean that me going around and telling this story where I'm the victim and she's the villain is acceptable.

But how else do you tell it when someone asks you what your relationship is like with your mother and they need an honest but brief answer?

Of course, pretending it never happened, isn't resolving your inner conflict. You will be able to proceed with an amicable relationship with your mom, yes, it's possible. It's just one, where you are accepting her inability to take ownership, for how she has treated you, knowing full well, how past behaviors have hurt and shaped you.

For instance, my exh, is one who will not ever accept his role, how his need to have everyone around him soothe his insecurities affects each and every one of us, myself, and the three kids, specifically. recognizing, this is how it is, will formulate a different type of working relationship between him, his kids, me their mother.

My dad, at least, acknowledged, he sent me packing, because he knew being with him and stepmom was not right. He and I have a different, but semi functioning relationship. He's not completely out of my life. Boundaries, limits, self awareness, of when it's negatively affecting me, are in place.

You don't have to forget or even forgive. May place you in the parent/adult role, tbh.



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Add: about inability, to look at self, with a need to shift blame, sooth insecurities, why I feel this is more about borderline shame, than narcissistic injury, is the nature of the tears. Low self esteem, pattern of instability in relationships and financial crisis. The fact you desire to have compassion, and the self doubt, because it's not all black and white, how people feel and desire rescue borderlines. Many a narcissist, ppl would rather flee, there's mean streaks, at times...

Hang in there. There's ways to feel compassion, walk in truth and still have a relationship with a loved one, like your mom.

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It always did for me too. It seems like youre going to t to improve everything, but that relationship i think has to be put on hold, kinda, until youre through a certain point in t.

I also agree that your mother's reactions suggest BPD to me. My own mother's reactions have always been very similar. She has never been in treatment, but I am 100% sure that she has BPD. I also have borderline traits.

I've read a lot of books on BPD, but there were three that helped me in understanding my mother and changing my interactions with her: "Loving Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder," "Surviving a Borderline Parent," and "Understanding the Borderline Mother." The last one was particularly helpful to me, as it does a good job about talking about different ways that BPD presents itself in different people, or even in the same person at different times. (It's expensive, but I borrowed it from the library.)

(I don't mean to pigeonhole or diagnose someone I don't know, but when I started to read about BPD, it was like a light from the heavens, both for understanding my mother and myself. And it has improved our relationship quite a lot.)

[QUOTE=Yearning0723;3602216]
I'm confused by this, who would ask that? Why would anyone who isn't close to you ask you that?

But anyway, you can say lots of things.

" my mom and i have a rocky relationship"
" we get on fine"
" I lived with my mom till i was 13 then went to live my dad (because you missed him, wanted a change, wasn't getting on with your mom, less stress)
" it's none of your business"
" i'd rather not talk about it"
" it's a long story"

As you get older that question will become less relevant i'd imagine. You already live alone right?

[QUOTE=Asiablue;3602707]There was a specific situation yesterday where this question came up and then I told that story because it was the easiest answer in that situation. It's for a mentoring program my T recommended for me and they want a lot of information about your family background, things you have difficulty with, things that make you anxious, etc. so they'll be able to match you with someone appropriate who can "handle" your issues. I figured it was in my best interest to answer honestly rather than using my usual, "It's fine," or "It's rocky," or "It's a long story," but at the same time, the program coordinator didn't have an hour for me to sit and explain to her all the complexities and nuances of our relationship.

So in brief, "She kicked me out when I was thirteen, I went to live with my dad, we didn't speak for two years, then we started rebuilding our relationship; it's fine now but there's still some residual hurt/mistrust there." That story just sounds a lot cleaner. But I also hate myself for telling it that way when it isn't 100% accurate. I mean, in my mind, it is (ish), but that's just my perspective, and the response I get always makes me feel "cared for," which then makes me feel guilty.

it sounds pretty accurate to me. Doesn't matter what you think you did, she DID kick you out. Even if it was just a week... The damage was done and you didn't want to go back. I think that was a good call on your part.

I know it's technically accurate, but it also leaves out a lot of important details and paints her as the aggressor and me as the victim. I mean, in the mentoring program situation it was probably a good call, because I needed the coordinator to be aware of my mother issues so she can match me with someone boundaried enough not to try to be my mother but who will also understand what's going on for me...but sometimes it feels like I'm telling the story a certain way to elicit care/comfort, and that just feels manipulative.

ok listen up lady.....

YOU ARE THE VICTIM

You were a child!!!!! Can you please give yourself a break????

Thanks, Asia. I guess I just wish it was that simple for me to believe it. Because I DID always act like and think of myself as an adult, since I was very very young, even though I know emotionally I was a kid even if I could match adults in an intellectual debate and was constantly making adult decisions.

It's just that she's my mom. And thinking that she hurt me makes me feel like I lacked personal autonomy. Which obviously I did, because I was a child, but it's hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to see it just in black and white with her = villain and me = poor little abused kid, because I CAN see it from her point of view too.

Empathy can be problematic sometimes, I guess...

My stepmom, used to call me manipulative. I was 14/15 years old, and would ask for one on one time with my dad. It was a label, that stuck in my head, for many years, in a self doubting way. It translated, through the years, as an inability, unwillingness on my part, to assert myself, express my needs, led to being a door mat, unable to walk away from unhealthy relationships, the list goes on.
I, finally, early last year, asked my T, what exactly is it, to be manipulative. To either stop myself from doing it, or to spot it from others, because I still harbored all those negative tapes, from earlier in life.

Being direct and straight forward, not circular and indirect, is the difference. Lo and behold, if I have tended to be direct and straight forward, guess I'm not the one being manipulative, eh?

Telling your story, directly, albeit evoked emotions is NOT being manipulative.


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Nothing is black and white, so the victim isn't all good or all bad and the abuser isn't all evil and bad and has no good in them ( in this case at least.)

You don't have to go around telling everyone who will listen "hey guess what i was abused growing up" " hey guess what, my mom is evil and did horrible things to me." What happened in your past is no ones business and not everything needs labelled. Just get used to saying to yourself "i am not to blame" get comfortable with it, because that is the pure truth.

Yeah if i expressed my needs as a kid or my feelings, i was labelled manipulative and or dramatic. I used to hate the M word.

My T always reminds me whenever I call myself manipulative to change that word to "trying to get my needs met". She thinks that's where "manipulative" behaviors come from. I think I agree. And she's said that to me so many times that I have her voice in my head now whenever I think of that word and I automatically correct myself.