[Yearning0723]

First of all, it amazes me how tight the queer community is, even in the largest city in Canada. Potential T knows current T socially and I was like, "Wow, okay." (She spent the next minute or so assuring me that it would be incredibly unethical for her to discuss me with current T unless I gave her permission so don't ever worry about that.)

Anyway, it wasn't as uncomfortable as I thought, but I don't think she's the one. She thinks boundaries need to be super strict and are super important, so that, and also she asked me when I talked about my mother's bizarre treatment of me when I was a child, she asked for an example (although to her credit, she didn't push and complimented me on my boundary assertion when I refused). I didn't start talking about that stuff with current T until we'd been seeing each other for six months. And when I asked her about how she would deal with a boundary breach, she said she can't predict the future and she didn't know; we would have to discuss it then.

She also told me that she wasn't sure we would be a good fit and she would need a few days to think about it, so I don't think it's going to work out and I'm okay with that. I felt okay with her, but not super comfortable right away like I did with current T (which is strange) or ED T. So I'm going to cross this one off the list. I have another consult tomorrow morning, and I can look at this as my dry run. I feel okay about the one tomorrow now.

I wasn't even all that nervous once I actually got there. Probably because I was wearing a blazer. I wear blazers every day for this very reason; they make me feel confident and they come off well.

[Asiablue]

Ok, so she isn't the one, now you're one step closer to finding your perfect fit

[HazelGirl]

It sounds like you're doing a great job of feeling out T's and looking for one that will work. Are you discussing "boundaries" in general, or are you specifically bringing up contact outside of session? For some T's, that isn't a "boundary" and they wouldn't know that's what you're referring to when you say "boundaries".

[Yearning0723]

Do they need to feel "perfect" or "comfy" on day one, or is feeling that way setting myself up for failure? With ED T, I think I only felt like this was a perfect fit on day one because she reminded me of my ideal fantasy mother, and with current T, it might have been because I believed so strongly in the process and had been out of therapy for awhile and needed it. This one definitely isn't right, but if I don't feel particularly "wrong" with the next two but also don't click with them right away, should I do more consults or should I give one of them a chance?

Also, I'm really appreciating current T right now...probably because her voice is naturally very soft, which is what made me comfortable with her in the first place. Even when she's being defensive/upset, her voice is soft. When people's voices are naturally louder/sharper, that makes me a lot less comfortable, even though that's just how some people's vocal chords are and has nothing to do with warmth/empathy or anything like that. It's just a handy little heuristic.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

It sounds like you're doing a great job of feeling out T's and looking for one that will work. Are you discussing "boundaries" in general, or are you specifically bringing up contact outside of session? For some T's, that isn't a "boundary" and they wouldn't know that's what you're referring to when you say "boundaries".

I brought up out of session contact, told her what I needed (ex. flexible boundaries because hard rules make me anxious, and I don't want to be shamed for "breaking" them), and then asked her what her boundaries are other than that, and she said we would have to discuss them, which I didn't think was a fair answer, but it might have just meant she needed to think about the kind of commitment she was willing to make.

[HazelGirl]

No, they definitely don't need to be immediately comfortable. It might take some time to be comfortable with a T. You have to use both your knowledge (like her rules and techniques) and your intuition to make a good decision.

[HazelGirl]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

I brought up out of session contact, told her what I needed (ex. flexible boundaries because hard rules make me anxious, and I don't want to be shamed for "breaking" them), and then asked her what her boundaries are other than that, and she said we would have to discuss them, which I didn't think was a fair answer, but it might have just meant she needed to think about the kind of commitment she was willing to make.

Oh, okay
Just making sure.

[Asiablue]

No, i don't think they need to be perfect or comfy in one day. But i do think you should get a good feeling about them, a sense of who they are and how they work, you should feel a draw to them and like you're excited to work with them.

I think a good sign is if they are also thoughtful, willing to negotiate things like boundaries, see the therapy process as collaborative etc. I don't think any T is literally "perfect" i just mean as close a match to you as possible.

Also i wanted to say about speaking to them about boundaries. Are you painting a picture that you have lots of difficulties with boundaries? It's good to be really honest but not overly negative about your difficulties. Cos as soon as any new T hears that, alarm bells ring and they seem to overstate how boundaried they are, and they can seem a bit rigid and actually when they get to know you and see that you're not really boundary-less they relax them a bit. That's been my experience. They start with the walls quite high, keep to the traditional boundaries, but as they warm to you and trust starts to build between you they can bring them down a bit and work with you about outside contact.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

No, i don't think they need to be perfect or comfy in one day. But i do think you should get a good feeling about them, a sense of who they are and how they work, you should feel a draw to them and like you're excited to work with them.

I think a good sign is if they are also thoughtful, willing to negotiate things like boundaries, see the therapy process as collaborative etc. I don't think any T is literally "perfect" i just mean as close a match to you as possible.

Also i wanted to say about speaking to them about boundaries. Are you painting a picture that you have lots of difficulties with boundaries? It's good to be really honest but not overly negative about your difficulties. Cos as soon as any new T hears that, alarm bells ring and they seem to overstate how boundaried they are, and they can seem a bit rigid and actually when they get to know you and see that you're not really boundary-less they relax them a bit. That's been my experience. They start with the walls quite high, keep to the traditional boundaries, but as they warm to you and trust starts to build between you they can bring them down a bit and work with you about outside contact.

Yeah, I might have been overstating my issues with boundaries...I mentioned the situation a few weeks ago where I sent current T an email after being expressly told not to, and mentioned the maternal transference with ED T, and mentioned how sometimes I play out a specific familiar dynamic where I push boundaries to try to provoke a response that reminds me of my mother, ex. the T getting upset at me, so then I can tell myself the T doesn't actually care. I thought it was important to be upfront about that, but I can see how that would scare some Ts off. But I guess if they're not confident in their ability to deal with that attachment dynamic, they might not be the best for me?

At the very least, I want to know that they know what they're getting into, and that their boundaries are flexible and open to negotiation, and that they're not going to get upset at me or shame me for doing something wrong. I mentioned this to the T today and asked her if she would get angry at me if I broke a boundary we'd already discussed, and she said she didn't know whether she would get angry or not - that to me isn't right. The correct answer is that you would never act angry at a client because your feelings are yours and don't enter into the equation when dealing with clients. Even current T says this, although she struggles to adhere to it, I think.

And I guess it is about being excited to work with them. This was the case with current T, with ED T, with CBT T, possibly with past long-term T (but that might have just been my loneliness and anxiety and the magical thought that she might be able to help). With the T I consulted today, I didn't feel that even a little.

So I will keep looking. One consult tomorrow, one on Monday, and if neither of them are making me feel that excitement, then I will book some more consults.

It was so weird to talk about current T with this T, though, even though she asked, because I know they know each other. Awkward. The queer community is tiny. Luckily the next T I'm consulting isn't queer.

[Asiablue]

You're so right... her answer sucked. And the answer you expected IS the right answer, that's exactly what you want to hear. You don't want a T who is reactive and bringing her own ego into your therapy.

Do these T's say they work with attachment? Because really, the things you've expressed that you do with boundaries is run of the mill client behaviour lol it's really not unusual.
It is a delicate balance between being totally honest and upfront so they know what they are getting themselves into and packaging and marketing yourself as this really awful, challenging client. Because if you do that they're just seeing a potentially (self-confessed) big problem in front of them and not Yearning, the girl, the person, the massive potential.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

You're so right... her answer sucked. And the answer you expected IS the right answer, that's exactly what you want to hear. You don't want a T who is reactive and bringing her own ego into your therapy.

Do these T's say they work with attachment? Because really, the things you've expressed that you do with boundaries is run of the mill client behaviour lol it's really not unusual.
It is a delicate balance between being totally honest and upfront so they know what they are getting themselves into and packaging and marketing yourself as this really awful, challenging client. Because if you do that they're just seeing a potentially (self-confessed) big problem in front of them and not Yearning, the girl, the person, the massive potential.

To be fair, I don't think her response meant she would get upset at me, but possibly that she doesn't know how I would define "upset" or how she would respond in a particular situation and how I would interpret that response, so she doesn't want to commit to anything. But yeah, it doesn't feel right.

This T doesn't have a lot of experience with attachment, but the one I'm seeing tomorrow does, so hopefully that will go better. I don't want to market myself as a terrible client, but I would want my T to be okay with me being a terrible client, because occasionally (fortunately, very occasionally) I am, and all I need in those moments are kindness and gentleness and understanding, rather than shame.

[Asiablue]

Hopefully this one tomorrow will go better then. I honestly think any T who works with trauma and abuse should have a very good knowledge of attachment and work from an attachment framework.

[AmysJourney]

Good for you to have made it to the consult even though you were so nervous - and good for you to be so open in the consult.
But may I give you a little tiny, weeny piece of advice? The "perfect fit" is not always the one that in the first consult "promises" you to be flexible with boundaries with you or who makes you feel all cozy and protected and understood right from the start.
What strikes me in your post (and some of the other ones I have read from you) is that you are so intelligent and insightful about where certain behaviors and beliefs and expectations stem from. You know a lot of the reasons for why you are doing or not doing certain things. You articulate yourself great, you are smart and funny. But then comes the T issue and it seems to me you forget all the good things about yourself a little.
What I mean is, is your perfect T one who lets you "push" boundaries? Or is it simply that you would like to be able to contact the T in between sessions? These are two completely different things yet you mix them up into one confusing thing.
What other boundaries do you want to push? Are you looking for a therapist who is comfortable with touch? Then again - two different things!

You talk about boundaries as if they are a challenge for you. That you need to test them, use them to test the relationship, utilize them for your needs.. Do you see where I am coming from?
Instead of asking a T how he/she responds to boundary violations (and I agree with whoever said that it might raise a concern in the T) why don't you ask questions like:
What is your view on out-of-session contact?
What is your view on touch in therapy?
Do you sometimes get angry at clients, and how do you deal with that?

You would learn soooo much more this way and the T would have the opportunity to tell you and the word boundary wouldn't even have to come up necessarily.

Give yourself (AND THE T) a chance to start on the same page..
Right now it seems you are looking for a T in a way where you set yourself up for disappointment..

I am very curious to hear how the next consults go though.. And I wish you luck and courage.

Lots of love,
Amelia

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Amelia112

Good for you to have made it to the consult even though you were so nervous - and good for you to be so open in the consult.
But may I give you a little tiny, weeny piece of advice? The "perfect fit" is not always the one that in the first consult "promises" you to be flexible with boundaries with you or who makes you feel all cozy and protected and understood right from the start.
What strikes me in your post (and some of the other ones I have read from you) is that you are so intelligent and insightful about where certain behaviors and beliefs and expectations stem from. You know a lot of the reasons for why you are doing or not doing certain things. You articulate yourself great, you are smart and funny. But then comes the T issue and it seems to me you forget all the good things about yourself a little.
What I mean is, is your perfect T one who lets you "push" boundaries? Or is it simply that you would like to be able to contact the T in between sessions? These are two completely different things yet you mix them up into one confusing thing.
What other boundaries do you want to push? Are you looking for a therapist who is comfortable with touch? Then again - two different things!

You talk about boundaries as if they are a challenge for you. That you need to test them, use them to test the relationship, utilize them for your needs.. Do you see where I am coming from?
Instead of asking a T how he/she responds to boundary violations (and I agree with whoever said that it might raise a concern in the T) why don't you ask questions like:
What is your view on out-of-session contact?
What is your view on touch in therapy?
Do you sometimes get angry at clients, and how do you deal with that?

You would learn soooo much more this way and the T would have the opportunity to tell you and the word boundary wouldn't even have to come up necessarily.

Give yourself (AND THE T) a chance to start on the same page..
Right now it seems you are looking for a T in a way where you set yourself up for disappointment..

I am very curious to hear how the next consults go though.. And I wish you luck and courage.

Lots of love,
Amelia

Thanks, Amelia. I appreciate this. You're right that I might be setting myself up for disappointment - I actually planned on asking specifically about out of session contact, but it sort of took a different turn when the T asked me about my current T and I mentioned boundaries (her style and my needs) as something that wasn't working for that relationship.

It's not so much that I need out of session contact (although I think I do) but more that I need someone who will be patient and supportive and caring and kind and compassionate even when I'm behaving badly. And I don't know how to figure that out other than through trial and error. I don't need a T who lets me "push" boundaries so much as a T who isn't going to shame me and punish me and get angry at me if that does happen, which it inevitably will.

What I really need is someone who recognizes that when I'm pushing them away or pulling them into something they don't want (ex. emailing between sessions after being told not to), that's not me being defiant or trying to hurt them or break a rule, but me being overwhelmed or scared, and that means they need to respond compassionately to me instead of being like, "Here's my rule; you know my rule; you broke it." Because there is nothing anyone could say to me in a situation like that that would make me feel any guiltier than I already feel, and it's just not helpful. I actually told all this to the T today, and her response was just that with trauma work and attachment stuff, firm boundaries are important. Maybe for some people, but I have that with current T, and it's just not working for me.

I also need a T who is willing to wait for me to trust them and meet me where I am, which is why this T asking me for an example of childhood abuse on day one raised a red flag. I need a T who will see me as a person and not make me feel like I'm just a paycheque. The issue with my current T is that sometimes it feels very clinical, like there's a wall between us and she's not engaged with me and has no stake in my healing, and that makes me feel especially vulnerable and uncomfortable and undermines trust.

[Asiablue]

There's a difference between firm boundaries and rigid boundaries. Your current T has rigid boundaries and that's not anymore healthy than weak boundaries.

I actually don't think you have a massive problem with boundaries, hypersensitive about them yes but not completely unable to understand them or constantly challenging them. To me contacting a T out of session isn't a boundary breach. It's information. It should tell a T that you are overwhelmed, that you are in need of something and that she needs to find out what that something is.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

There's a difference between firm boundaries and rigid boundaries. Your current T has rigid boundaries and that's not anymore healthy than weak boundaries.

I actually don't think you have a massive problem with boundaries, hypersensitive about them yes but not completely unable to understand them or constantly challenging them. To me contacting a T out of session isn't a boundary breach. It's information. It should tell a T that you are overwhelmed, that you are in need of something and that she needs to find out what that something is.

Fair enough.

What I need is a T who understands that I have issues with trust, that I'm going to push and pull and get angry and say stupid stuff and withdraw and cling and test them and all this other stuff, and be okay with that and respond to me with warmth and kindness and compassion anyway. That's all. So how do I figure out whether potential Ts will be able to deal with that? If I ask it just like that, they might think I am a super difficult, needy client and not want to take it on.

[HazelGirl]

No, I would hope they would see you as normal. I do the same thing, and so does many many other people. It's normal for people with histories of abuse. As long as you find a good trauma T, they should be used to that.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

No, I would hope they would see you as normal. I do the same thing, and so does many many other people. It's normal for people with histories of abuse. As long as you find a good trauma T, they should be used to that.

Both my current T and the T I consulted today apparently have extensive experience with trauma - current T did her graduate counselling work with survivors of abuse. I think it's just a different style - the T I consulted today used a fancy word for it, first stage trauma counselling or something, where rigid boundaries are apparently super important and the client should not be allowed to "get away" with breaches (my word, not hers). That approach may work for some, but it clearly isn't doing me any favors.

[HazelGirl]

That could possibly make sense, if I heard their reasoning for it. But they still need to be flexible with their clients. Not all clients fit into their boxes.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

That could possibly make sense, if I heard their reasoning for it. But they still need to be flexible with their clients. Not all clients fit into their boxes.

I think some Ts might not trust themselves with boundaries, so instead they have these super rigid ones for their own sake as opposed to for ours. Ts who are really good with and comfortable around boundaries shouldn't have issues being flexible, so I feel like any T who is going to lay out specific rules that are set in stone isn't one I want to start seeing.

[Asiablue]

Have you considered psychodynamic therapists? Mine is and at first meeting i was worried she wasn't specifically a trauma therapist and that maybe she wouldn't be able to handle my stuff, it was my only reservation about her, also i suppose i worried that she seemed too nice and that i'd walk all over her. Hahaha biggest mistake ever, she's no walk over, she does have firm boundaries, but is also open to discussion about them and she's never ever shamed me for breaking no contact rules. In fact for now she seems resigned to the fact i am probably going to contact her outside of crisis moments regardless.
She might not be specifically super trained in trauma the way my last one was but she is psychodynamically trained and really understand attachment theory and how our attachments affect our behaviours. She's super focused on our relationship and my relationships with others.

It's interesting that the T you saw today said about trauma therapy having super firm boundaries at first, i wonder if that's why my last trauma T seemed sooooo clinical and far away. That approach did not work for me either.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

Have you considered psychodynamic therapists? Mine is and at first meeting i was worried she wasn't specifically a trauma therapist and that maybe she wouldn't be able to handle my stuff, it was my only reservation about her, also i suppose i worried that she seemed too nice and that i'd walk all over her. Hahaha biggest mistake ever, she's no walk over, she does have firm boundaries, but is also open to discussion about them and she's never ever shamed me for breaking no contact rules. In fact for now she seems resigned to the fact i am probably going to contact her outside of crisis moments regardless.
She might not be specifically super trained in trauma the way my last one was but she is psychodynamically trained and really understand attachment theory and how our attachments affect our behaviours. She's super focused on our relationship and my relationships with others.

It's interesting that the T you saw today said about trauma therapy having super firm boundaries at first, i wonder if that's why my last trauma T seemed sooooo clinical and far away. That approach did not work for me either.

The funny thing is, current T is psychodynamic (although she also purports to do attachment work - but actually doesn't - and does CBT, mindfulness, narrative, etc.). This is how I know modality really doesn't mean much, other than the basics - I don't want Gestalt, I don't want straight CBT/DBT or straight psychoanalysis/Jungian, and I don't want anyone who does energy therapy/hypnotherapy. Other than that, psychodynamic, relational, attachment-based, humanistic, eclectic, narrative - it's all good with me.

[Yearning0723]

The T I'm seeing tomorrow is psychodynamic, but also does CBT and narrative therapy and does attachment work. So fingers crossed...