My Ex Therapist invited Me...

I've written about this before, but this thread of a positive experience of friendship post-therapy seems the right place to mention it again.

I still keep in touch with my first therapist from 30 years ago. We talk or email several times a year, and if we are in each others' vicinity we might meet for lunch. We aren't best buds; we are more like old friends who keep track of each other.

It has worked because a) there never, ever was any possibility he would be my therapist again b) we live a good distance from each other which provides a safe bubble for each other c) we don't discuss topics that are therapy fodder d) I don't pretend that our relationship is any more than it really is, and e) i had no attachment or transference issues with him to over-complicate matters.

I do believe it can happen if the therapist and client both have very healthy boundaries and very realistic expectations, but that in itself is the big question. My guess is that most therapists don't enter into these kinds post-therapy relationships because they see that those conditions just aren't strong in most cases. They have to to have some common sense about such things, (and there is always the primary factor of whether they would pursue any kind of relationship with a client at all if it were not for the therapy relationship).

That's very sweet of your therapist to do that for her clients. But this is an example of how things can be interpreted differently by each individual. Your thread made it seem like this was something special she did for you, only because you didn't mention the other clients. No one made any adjustments to the context of your story. It is what it is.
Also she sent it to your home, so it did appear to be a selective, "exception to the rules" type of situation. Again, because it was not stated that she sends it to all of her clients' homes on their birthdays.
I would be weirded out to see a package at my door from my Therapist. I think even a card in the mail would make me feel this way. I would wonder why she couldn't just wait until our next session to give it to me. However I am able to separate what makes me feel uncomfortable from what others deem uncomfortable. You seemed amused, happy, and fine with it so I was naturally happy for you. It's not my place to step in and say otherwise, unless you ask for opinions or mention it made you feel awkward.

First of all, I didn't determine right or wrong. But let me go back a little.
In the first original post GTGT said:
"Post therapy friendships are possible"

Yes, they are possible. The truth is however - and I have had this conversation with more than one therapist - that it is not the norm, that it is not recommended and that there can be a lot of damage. But, as I stated, there are exceptions and I am glad there are. That doesn't mean however that because some friendships work out it doesn't mean that most will. According to my therapist "Very few have the potential to be balanced, healthy and satisfying in the long run" and she has done a lot of research into this topic.

Later in the thread GTGT says:
"Thanks for sharing your experience. Hopefully people will realize it does happen, Post Therapy Relationships. And more importantly, no big deal re boundaries."

Here it goes away from the subjective, personal experience into something broader. (No big deal re boundaries)
This invites me to take part in this conversation to offer my point of view, as she says Hopefully people will realize...'
And my point of view is that this can not stand alone as a statement for everyone, because the truth is, MANY therapists DO think there is a problem regarding boundaries.
Yes, these post-therapy relationships do happen - that is a fact. But it is also a fact that different T's have a very clear boundary here. And for very good reasons.

Later, GTGT says:
"What I grapple with is the fact that so many on this board say it's wrong, unethical damaging, etc; group think. Granted things can go wrong; such is life. When therapy is terminated usually one has grown and know how to deal with life issues, and get help from others if need be. Even those that have attachment disorder or BPD."
Again, this deviates from the strictly personal experience and again, this is where I can offer my opinion. I agree with GTGT, that the idea of ending therapy is that the client is able to deal with life issues and get help from others - but that is just not a general case for everyone. And I also agree with "things can go wrong, such is life" but therapy relationships are very unique for most of us. They are exponentially more intense than friendships, there is a huge imbalance in the beginning such as the therapist knows so much more about us than we know about them and so on. To build a friendship where both parts are equal, is a huge challenge and in many cases unsuccessful. And yes, I can make this statement because I have read into this topic, I have talked about it with people who know what they are talking about. (Not that they are necessarily right - so my opinion is not a fact, just what I have learned)

So I wasn't attacking AT ALL GTGT's personal experience, and this thread was not just an account of a personal experience, it became a discussion. That's why I don't feel bad offering my opinion, because all I was addressing was the broader statements that were made. And not at all the personal experience, which I said a few times now is REALLY GREAT! And I am really happy for GTGT.

This is a bit off-topic but I wouldn't have minded if someone would have shared their opinion about it. Not at all... And I didn't even know when I received the package that it was something she did for her clients. I only found out when I thanked her. But if someone had said on my thread that it was unethical or wrong - then fine, I don't have a problem with that. And some people did express how it would have made them feel and that's ok for me. If I post it online then yes, it makes it your place to write your comment - good or bad..

But that is not the issue - if you read what I wrote above, this was not just a personal account, it had broader statements, that invited me to give my opinion. I didn't attack the personal experience, I addressed the broader statements.

The broad statement you referred to suggested that it is possible for it to happen...but I don't recall reading it is possible for all clients. It's not unheard of. It appears that was all the OP was trying to say. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and is allowed to share; But the parts of your response, such as calling it a friendship without giving out real details (if this is the first time they've met up, an ongoing thing, etc.) refers to the OP and that post was not exactly part of a debate. Is it really our place to question someone else's friendship or the details that prove it? Was that part of the response really supportive in any way? I am only attempting to raise awareness to the situation because many things are turned into these big debates that end up going nowhere.

You are right, perhaps it came off like I wanted "proof" but what I intended was to find out what "friendship" meant in this instance. I wanted to find out more and perhaps I have not done this in the right way. So I apologize.
And also for any judgment I may have passed, which wasn't my intention. Neither did I question the friendship but I can see how this might have seemed in my post! I sometimes am not very good at putting my thoughts into words.
So, I meant no offense and no judgment but I apologize very sincerely if it has seemed that way.

In response to Amelia's 1st post...

I did not set out to prove anything.

I terminated therapy 8 October 2013. I was in intensive therapy for 18 months. Average sessions: 2 1/2 hours, 3-5 days/week.

We discussed becoming friends at the end of therapy. This was our 5th outing since terminating. (Places - concerts, award ceremony for me, lunch, etc.) We speak on the phone ~ 9 days. I usually call her, but she has called me 1/3 of the time. When she calls we tend to speak much longer.
At least 8 of my friends have met her. Two now see her for family therapy. They are aware of our friendship.
I have been at her house. I have met her family. I meet all my friends at restaurants, coffee shops, etc. As soon as my kingager goes off to school I will use my home to entertain again. I'm tired of picking up after kiddo and telling him to do it.
I would call us close friends. I think she would too. I knew a lot of her history and am learning more about her.
I don't know if it will be a life long friendship, yet there is no indication it won't be, but there are no guarantees with any of my relationships, except family. And, she has helped me to love them dearly no matter what.

I still standby there is nothing unethical about post therapy friendships.
All the Governing Boards of all US licensed therapist removed the two year wait is necessary. Even with the two year wait it was not taboo. Please explain this to me. There are state laws against it. For me, when It comes to ethics I think of morality, and I am very conservative when it comes to morality.

I have NOT judged anyone on the forum. That stings a little coming from you, Amelia. It is a fact that many therapist think like you and others on the forum that post friendships are damaging, unethical, etc. Read old threads. I suspect it's information given to clients by therapist, and therapist learn it in school. But, is it correct? I used the word: grapple, which means come to terms with. Meaning, "I am trying to understand this thinking." This is NOT judging anyone. I respect the right of decent for each individual. I never said this is for everyone.
All anyone has is antidotal stories concerning these relationships, nothing else. Sorry about your therapist friend, and her former client. But, it sounds like she was not attuned to this client if they successfully terminated therapy. The out come could have been the same, even if he was in therapy. Bad thinks happen even when it's not therapy related.

The other stuff about other clients being friends etc, smacks of seventh grade girl and kindergarten stuff or sibling rivalry. Life is not meant to be FAIR. I use to tell my kid all the time. What I failed to do was acknowledge his feelings. Thanks to therapy I have apologized to him. If clients are still thinking like this when they and the therapist decide they have successfully completed therapy then they need to sue him/her and get all their money back! To me therapy was about maturity, learning how to deal with hurts, and to not let them knock me over. I also had to learn how to deal with the good too, but that's a different story.

I don't disagree that these relationships can go wrong. They can also GO right. You state that there are hundreds of thousands of these post therapy relationships that have gone wrong. I have not seen any studies. Please share with us what you have found that are not antidotal.
I am not telling anyone to pursue or not pursue a relationship when therapy is over with their therapist. It's their decision to make, not mine. I rarely give advice. In fact I may have given a handful of advice in all my postings on this forum.

Change in systems only happen when there are exceptions to the Rule.

I agree with this completely. Sounds like the pair in question have a healthy, no-drama relationship that is enjoyable to both. Enjoy it

You are right, I was a little judgmental - and I didn't even mean to be. I think just as my words can sometimes be perceived in different ways, I guess I took your statement: "I wish people would realize that..." as something that suggested the common view on post-therapy friendships is wrong. But then again, I can definitely see how I have reacted to this statement and took it in a different way than you may have meant it.
You are right - I never conducted any studies on this, but I have talked to people about this who have.
So it seems there are different views on this. Whereas your view is that post-therapy friendship is fine and 'no big deal', there are others - mostly professionals - who have the complete opposite view.
I am friends with people who go to therapy and I have a friend who is a therapist (never been in therapy with her). And I can see the points of both camps here. The therapist friend is convinced (as is my own therapist) that post-therapy friendships are very complicated and hardly every work. Neither of them have real friendships with ex-clients and are not open to that (any more)
Some people I know however, who are clients, would love to be friends with their therapists and I can see how they are struggling to define what it really is they want.
My very personal view would agree with the notion that post-therapy friendships are complicated and more times than not "a big deal".

In the book "Handbook of Professional Ethics for Psychologists"
it says: "Although not specifically prohibited, psychologists are urged to avoid posttherapy relationships that could create a risk for harm - a possibility not easily or accurately predictable."
It goes on that posttherapy relationships are possible, but that it is not without risks.
So I know this topic has been researched and talked about a lot and if I believe my therapist, the majority of therapists are not open to posttherapy relationships for many good reasons.

But that is not to say that I wasn't wrong in the way I worded my response to you. I can see that. And I am sorry!

If gtgt went to the movies with his T why didn't he say "I went to the movies with my old t?" Why the line about being invited after a prank phone call? And especially why the dig about friendships being possible. It seems very mean spirited towards those who are struggling.

I would never accuse anyone of lying but this post seems to me as a very one-sided view of whatever is actually going on (or not) between two people.

In the course of over 30 years I have seen two therapists before the two I see now. The two past therapists (one of whom I only saw for a couple of months) both had post therapy client friends. As far as I know (and several of those were in the GLBT community with me) there was not a problem or if there was - it was not an overwhelming usual problem. (I only became friends with one of them, I thought the other was bat **** crazy but not because of her post therapy friendships)

The two I see now have both said they do not befriend ex clients.

Although I don't get the strong pull to be friends with therapists one has seen, I don't think it is that big of a deal either.

I appreciate your apology.

When I said no "no big deal" I meant that it was just a normal get together, no angst or drama before, during or after. For me, it was the same as getting together with any other of my friends. We are both clear that she can never be my therapist again.

The empirical research is not out there for Post Therapy Relationships. Most of what we hear is antidotal. There is very little research if any that passes the research test criteria. Hopefully your friends will publish their research. The psychology handbook is over a decade old. The boards change their rules sometime in the last decade. I am willing to bet good money that the governing boards discussed preliminary research out there and concluded that it is not an ethics issue. I suspect , because it is such a taboo topic that we won't hear too many of the success stories.

Gotta run...

It was April fools Day. I called and told her I was going to be a grandma other. My kid is 17. She saw us for family therapy, and she is familiar with my kid. Virginity is painful for senior boys. That's the choke in a nutshell.

Part of the "no big deal" feel for some of us is that, at least in my case, the friendship really did develop as no big deal. It wasn't something we sat down and had a big talk about. It wasn't something I asked for and he granted to me. It just naturally happened without any particular planning or thought really put into it -- kind of like most natural friendships develop. It kinds of seems to me that if you have to plan and ask permission and fret about it, perhaps it is just not meant to happen.

I absolutely understand this, and like I agreed earlier - if it works, it works, and that is a thing to be celebrated.

However, I think when statements like "no big deal" are casually put out there, it might be slightly misleading, and encourage people to think if they can appear like it's no big deal (sort of, look at me! I can be normal! pick me!) then they might get the result they want, ie friendship. But if it is in fact a big deal, that will cause problems down the line. So I think that is why it should always be examined and discussed, even if both parties appear to be nonchalant. I'm not sure I'm making any sense, and I am absolutely not trying to take away from the wonderful post therapy friendships you or others have.

Anecdotal is based on a story, an anecdote. Like i say, all my boyfriends turn into anecdotes.

Antidote is what you give against poison. Like i need to take a shot of booze to be around my exes.

Obviously a bias in my definitions! You get what you pay for from the hanksterpedia

Thank you hankser. I love you for this. I just wish I didn't depend on my ipad to always think for me.

ETA: I am so sorry for for misspelling of your name. I was just now able to read what got posted. I'm glad I was not to late in correcting it.

This makes me soooo happy to hear! Glad it went well!

I am glad that you have a friendship with you ExT.

That's nice to hear.

This is a generalization implying that the impression most posters have regarding post therapy friendships is incorrect. There may not be an APA guideline about it, but most therapists have such policies in place anyway and for good reason. The reality is that things can go wrong more often than not, and policies are created based on that fact. Many clients would put too much stock into this idea and things could suddenly go very wrong (as every person's expectation is different). If there is an exception to the rule then there is nothing wrong with that, but shouldnt be considered the norm. True friendships are often unexpected or pleasant surprises, not something we fantasize about and long for. And I thinks its worth addressing that many patients are not at all equipped to deal with the possible fall out if something doen't go as expected, especially those with personality disorders and attachment issues. This can actually create a very dangerous situation and shouldn't be minimized.

"The reality is that things can go wrong more often than not, and policies are created based on that fact."
That statement contradicts the APA guidelines. I was not generalizing, I was merely pointing out that these relationships do exist. And as I explained in a subsequent post, no big deal, meant it was a regular relationship to me, no different than any of my other friendships.

I also want to point out I was in therapy for humungous attachment issues that has since been resolved. Labeling stereotypes cause more harm than good. Who can or cannot have these after therapy relationships shouldn't be based on labels. Labels do more harm than good. Remember it is still taboo to - Love Your Client, let alone tell them you love them, especially if you have attachment issues or are BPD.

So my STB Ex T and I have agreed to keep in contact after he retires.
When we were discussing boundaries, he made the comment I found interesting,
he said he would treat me with "fear and respect" and asked the same from me.
And that he hopes the jam in the middle of our lives doesn't become affected.
I keep thinking about this comment and I'm not sure exactly how to interpret it.

Any thoughts?

Sounds like he's saying some occasional contact is okay, but he generally expects his space and will do the same for you.

Clear, concise definitions, as usual. However, the plural of antidote can also have another, entirely different meaning. When your mother's sister thinks you're the most marvelous child in the world, and she lavishes you with affection and gifts, that is known as "antidotes".