I don't know what the things are that you are trying to change. It probably makes a bit of a difference...

But...

It strikes me that you aren't complacent about therapy. And it strikes me that you really are working towards the things that you want in life. And so... It strikes me... That you don't need your therapist to be giving you a hard time because you are more than capable of giving yourself a hard time.

> I also really want her to be proud of me too.

I think that is understandable. It feels wonderful when the people we care about feel proud of us :-)

How long have you been working with your therapist for?

I found... I struggled a lot with CBT therapists because of the focus on change. I worked with one... And I cared about her a lot. And she would give me strategies for changing things... And they didn't seem to work with respect to my changing... And eventually she got burned out with me :-(

And then I got another t. And I cared about her a lot. And she would give me strategies for changing things... And they didn't seem to work out with respect to my changing... And she was fairly creative and she would come up with some new strategies that I hadn't tried before. And sometimes I had success with those :-) And sometimes I didn't. And sometimes... When I was feeling really rather demoralised about not changing... She would change strategies altogether and say something like 'oh well, you have been doing this for how long? and you are still alive here with me now so if you don't change this then oh well it isn't the end of the world' and then she would smile at me. And sometimes... I'd stop beating myself up about my lack of progress and... Change would just occur. I'm paradoxical like that :-)

And sometimes change wouldn't occur but you know what? I've been doing that for how long and here I am still alive and I'm okay right as I am right now :-)

Maybe... It might be time for a change? Sounds like your t is starting to burn out because she doesn't know what else to do to change you. That is probably a counter-transference thing... Maybe she struggles with trying to change herself too... I admire your persistence in still working with her (really). But I am wondering whether you might make more progress with someone else...

But then I guess I do that. I don't know if / how you can ask for someone to just accept you.

I had another CBT t who also burned out trying to change me... She terminated me and I was really very upset about that so she emailed me to explain that she burned out and she needed to terminate me for her health because she said she just didn't know how to help me. I emailed her back 'maybe you don't need to change me maybe you could just accept me'. She emailed me back saying 'I can't do that'. Public health system and they need progress to justify treatment etc etc. I despair at 'that kind' of science sometimes :-( I didn't respond to that but...

DBT... Currently empirically validated as the most successful treatment for BPD... Linehan emphasises balancing acceptance with change. Acceptance with change. Why is that hard for people to grasp?

It is hard for me too... But sometimes acceptance is the most beautiful thing in the world. Instead of feeling like one is ramming oneself up against a brick wall... Acceptance simply *inspires* one. I don't know how to explain it...

Maybe... It is something therapists either get or don't get.

I can't get along with a therapist who doesn't get it...

I find things to be... Unnecessarily hard and painful.

[Rapunzel]

Alexandra,

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your concern for me and for this thread. It's complicated to try to explain the dynamics between me and my T. She sees a side of me that I don't show to everyone, at least not at the beginning of relationships. I get stuck in this pattern, where I get people to be sympathetic towards me and want to help me, which feels good, but I am addicted to the victim, I need help, please rescue me role. I never mean to hurt anyone, but I am too needy, and keep wanting more, and eventually people start to see through it and feel taken advantage of, and then they hate me and never want to have anything to do with me again. The cycle tends to take about two years, sometimes more. I reached that point with T several months ago, and she almost did quit. She used to write to me (we have done mostly e-therapy so far, but switching to f2f now) in a gentle, caring way, but now she is very short with me and mostly she picks apart what I am doing wrong, offering little or no encouragement or acceptance or praise. I am where I am now because I failed to respond properly to positive stuff when it was there, so now I have lost it.

I have been through quite a few different therapists already over something like 18 years, and the current one has tried just about every method available (a bit here and a bit there). I'm not as bad as I used to be, and I've made it farther with her than any of the others. When I get a chance I want to study DBT in depth on my own, since I think there is a lot in it that I could benefit from. But that concept that you can accept yourself where you are and still have need of change is a really hard one for me. Accepting myself is hard, period. Again, maybe not as hard as it was. I just have so many things that I need to change that I can't even keep track of them, let alone see past them. I crave acceptance, but continually reject it when offered because I can't let myself have it.

I have thought seriously about starting with a new T again, but for now I think that it is more important to work my way through the pattern I am stuck in and find a better outcome. If I started over, it would probably take another couple of years for the pattern to repeat again, and they may or may not recognize it or know what to do with it.

For now, I do appreciate the acceptance that I receive from my friends at PC, and I hope that I am giving back as much as I take. I think that it helps that there are so many of you, so that one person doesn't just get burned out from trying to deal with me.

Sincerely,
Rap

I want to take the time to respond to this properly but right now I need to do some reading.

Thanks for sharing so much. You remind me of me :-)

I really reccomend that you get hold of a copy of this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...893218-2730266

Doesn't matter what your diagnosis is, I think it could really help you with respect to the way you see yourself and your behaviour. I know that it really helped me immensely, and I really can't reccomend the book enough.

See...

She talks about how the kinds of behaviours that you describe most often result from people not having recieved adequate care earlier in life. Normally (or perhaps ideally) our parents care for us. They mirror our emotional responses. They notice when we are upset and soothe us. They teach us how to regulate our distress and they teach us appropriate ways of eliciting care from others and through their care we internalise that and we start to provide it for ourselves. And in this way... You get an adult who is secure in their place in the world. But when people don't receive adequate care then they need to up the ante on the distress in order to obtain appropriate care from others. This could be unconscious or it could be conscious, it doesn't really matter. The point is that some kids are taught that the only way they will be able to get the caring they need is if they present with severe distress, or if they 'play the victim'. Some people never had appropriate and consistent care when they were kids and so they never learned how to internalise those emotion regulation and self soothing skills. Sometimes our parents don't have those skills so it isn't so surprising that they couldn't teach them to us. Some kids are abused too and kids who have trauma need more soothing and help regulating their emotions and validation of their emotions than kids who don't.

So... The upshot for Linehan is that those kinds of behaviours are understandable responses to past experiences. She allows a role for genetics with respect to some people having higher levels of emotional arousal and slower return to emotional baseline as well, but I guess that for her the focus is on the experiences.

If a therapist sees those kinds of behaviours as understandable responses to experiences then they are less likely to 'blame the victim'.

But another thing that can happen... It can be really very hard to find a therapist with good boundaries and good awareness and insight into what is going on for them. Sometimes therapists burn themselves out because they work so hard at changing the person because they can't bear to see them distressed. They just want to make the pain stop and go away and so they work to change change change the person. Which is commendable, of course. But sometimes the message that the client can take from that is 'I am unacceptable as I am. I have to change in order to be a worthy, worthwhile human being'. And that can lead to despondancy and depression and a lot of beating up on oneself and ultimately... Failure to change. And it isn't that the person doesn't want the distress to stop. Sometimes it is about... The genuine (and legitimate) need to grieve in a healing way. It is just that one doesn't know how to get the healing side of that happening... Sometimes... It is okay to feel distressed. And to be able to sit with that without trying to change it. Trying to change it all the time can be experienced as really very invalidating. Like one isn't allowed to experience negative emotions. Like one isn't allowed to grieve. And of course that isn't the message that the therapist is attempting to convey, but it can be the message that is taken nevertheless.

It is the therapists job to have good boundaries. To have boundaries that are good enough so that they don't burn out. That can be a jolly hard ask, but that is the therapists job. If that doesn't happen then the therapists job should be to refer the client on to someone else. Preferably someone else who has a better ability to tolerate distress themselves so they can teach the client how to tolerate distress too. How to tolerate the moment without trying to change things all the time. You can't change the past. One can avoid it and distract oneself and focus on other things... But change change change can be an avoidance strategy. And overfocus on change can have the counter-productive result of... More distress.

> I am too needy, and keep wanting more, and eventually people start to see through it and feel taken advantage of, and then they hate me and never want to have anything to do with me again.

See that is a therapist having bad boundaries issue. Don't get me wrong, they might have better boundaries with other clients but their boundaries with you weren't good enough. They chose to focus on changing you for what they thought was the better and they tried and they tried and they tried and that was their decision. When their strategy didn't work for them (and they got burned out) they blamed you. They need to take responsibility for that.

Another factor... Is that their focusing on changing you all the time... Lets see if I can describe. Lets say I'm feeling really upset about something or other. The therapist attempts to alleviate my distress (to change it) by minimising whatever it was that I was upset about. I feel invalidated. I escalate... I tell the story again probably endorsing about every cognitive distortion in the book attempting to get some validation for my feeling. The therapist tries to alleviate my distress (to change it) by drawing my attention to my cognitive distortions. I feel really disconnected and pissed off. Therapist concludes by blaming me for not trying to help myself / for not wanting to change / for not changing.

I wanted some validation. Is that really too much to ask? For some therapists... Yes.

Lets back up and do that with some validation. Lets say I'm feeling really upset about something or other. Therapist says something along the lines of 'it sounds like you are having a hard time of it at the moment' or something like that. I can talk about the hard time and about how upset I feel. Validation... Eventually... I have had enough of feeling upset. I want to change it. I figure out what the upset was really about. Usually something different, or maybe there was a trigger in the situation that got me thinking on something else... And whatever it was that was the real trigger... Well, my distress is an understandable response in light of that.

See there are always two things we can do. We can accept x just as it is or we can try and change x. And that means that we always have a choice. Sometimes distress needs to be felt. I personally think that what is so wonderful about the acceptance and the validation is that... I never got that as a kid. My t was very accepting and validating. I would initiate change 'please can you help me figure out how to change that'. (Not so with self harm and suicide but with respect to emotions and stuff). I internalised a lot of the validating and soothing and accepting things she said to me. She gave me some of those experiences that I missed out on as a kid. But I internalised them from her. I'm not anywhere near as hard on myself as I used to be. I still have a long way to go, though.

Sounds like your t has burned out.

> that concept that you can accept yourself where you are and still have need of change is a really hard one for me.

I think the notion is that you are okay just as you are right now. In every moment... You are acceptable and worthy and a decent human being just as you are in the moment right now. You don't HAVE to change anything. You are doing just fine.

Dwell on that...

It can be the case (at the very same time as you acknowledge that the above is true) that there are things that you would like to do differently. Both can be true at the very same time.

It takes the pressure off change. Removes the brick wall. And the acceptance... Can inspire one to take that step across into new ways of doing things... Carrot instead of the stick.

It is hard...

Reading Linehan really helped me, but having a therapist who actually understood the balancing acceptance with change thing (and who - perhaps as a result - had really very good boundaries with me so that i felt cared for and she didn't feel burned out) well... It was that latter that was life changing.

That being said I've seen DBT therapists who didn't get this at all. The self psychology stuff was interesting to me because the empathetic stance sounded so similar to the acceptance strategy... There are therapists out there who can do this. In my experience, they are rare, however.

> I think that it is more important to work my way through the pattern I am stuck in and find a better outcome. If I started over, it would probably take another couple of years for the pattern to repeat again, and they may or may not recognize it or know what to do with it.

What I'm concerned about is that it sounds like your therapist is burned out already. She is blaming you. Since you blame yourself already it is familiar turf for you. You probably don't think you deserve anything different. I'm not sure that she is able to produce a different ending for you because she is burned out already. I think the different ending will have to come from a different beginning of a therapist having better boundaries right from the start and their being able to tolerate your distress okay so that you can see that you can too. Some things... No amount of academic learning can get into you... One needs to experience validation and acceptance and caring in order to really come to believe that one is worthy of such things.

I said to my t once 'I'm scared that you will burn out with me'. She winked at me and said 'You aren't THAT bad'. I miss her so much. So much. I'm hoping that my new t is going to pull through for me. It is looking promising thus far.

I really think... You deserve better.

I really do.

I'm sorry that was so long and rambly :-(

Take home message:

Acceptance is really very important. Change is only one half of the story for Linehan, and the other half of the story is acceptance. But given that the problem (of non-optimal ability to self-soothe and to validate ones own emotions and perceptions etc) is due to lack of acceptance in practice acceptance can play a bigger role in therapy than change.

And (somewhat paradoxically) acceptance IS change. Especially when one has never really been accepted before. Oftentimes a lot of the behaviours that we want to change are expressions of distress due to lack of acceptance. One can try and change the behaviours directly, but that can be like trying to get through the wall by repeatedly bashing oneself up against it. If one switches strategies to acceptance... Oftentimes one can gain a clearer view of what lies beyond... A clearer view of how much happier one would be if one was doing that instead of the same old. One doesn't need to express such escalated forms of distress because ones emotions and thoughts and perceptions are validated so one doesn't need to attempt to elicit care by doing those behaviours anymore.

I really think it would help you immensly (and be a whole heap less painful) if you could see a t who understands something of this. Your current t clearly doesn't get it and I think you are going to get the same ending you have always got :-(

Sorry about my raving :-(

(edited to include the following)

also... all this is just my personal opinion and i don't really know very much about what it is that you are trying to change etc. if this seems to fit then that is good but if it doesn't seem to fit then that is okay too.

Alexandra...I very much enjoyed reading your reply's here.....great stuff :-)

[Rapunzel]

I was just about finished writing a reply, and my computer did something strange, and it is gone. The gist of it is that, Alexandra, you understand me very well. I would, and probably have, say the same things to someone else in my situation, but I don't expect better for myself. I am hoping for things to change with my T as she has had a break and we are changing over to f2f rather than online (which I talked her into trying and I don't think she liked very well). At the least, I want to end on a better note, but I will keep the option open of finding someone else.

I have had the same concerns that you raise, about countertransference and burnout, but focusing there wasn't helpful. I'm supposed to focus on myself, not on T - she says it is not about her. She is able to set boundaries, and my boundaries are more in question.

Linehan's book has been on my wish list for some time. I have gotten it from the library before, but didn't have enough time to read it thoroughly. Time and money are issues, but maybe they won't be for much longer.

Thank you for your insight and for the time and effort that you put into this. I understand that you are a student, right? Do you read psych books for fun and/or personal interest, or is that what you are studying too? I think that you show a lot of promise.

Rap

Thanks mouse. I wish I could have spent more time with the editing, but sometimes that can turn into a half a day enterprise...

I hope I learn to be clearer and more concise. Glad it wasn't too incomprehensible :-)

Hey. Something that I worry about is that I have a tendency to run away. Either to run away or simply to give up. I've never had a choice about the therapists I was assigned by community mental health. Sometimes I'd know it wasn't going to work so well after around 4 meetings. What I worry about a little is that maybe I decided it wasn't going to work so well after around 4 meethings. I simply couldn't connect with them, though. Just needed them to shhhhh and tolerate silence for a while and give me a chance to think... To think about what to say... And then to say something. And I just needed them to accept what I had said and validate my emotions or perceptions (even if they disagreed with my claims about reality).

And if they didn't do that... I figured I couldn't work with them.

But... Maybe I could have been more upfront about what I needed? Instead of withdrawing because I figured it wasn't going to work... Instead of watching them fumble around trying to get a connection and feeling myself receeding... Maybe I could have done something? I don't know.

Maybe... You could?

You could ask her what she knows about acceptance based strategies... If it isn't a great deal then maybe you could learn together? Maybe something you could work on is how to accept yourself? If she could model that it could really help... That way when trying to change something isn't working out so well then you could work on acceptance. Sometimes it is harder to accept something than it is to change it and so you figure out a way to change it after all ;-)

I really do admire your strength / determination / persistence in not running away or retreating from her. For sticking with it. I always go to therapy... But mentally and emotionally I retreat...

Do you want to tell me some more about how 'your boundaries are in question'? (only if you want to, it is okay if you don't want to)

What I do sometimes when I can't afford a book... Is I photocopy it. That way you can get the whole thing for around five or ten bucks. I only do that when I really need it and other people insist on recalling it or when I can only get it on interloan, and I can't afford it. I've done that with things and brought them later because it is nicer to have them on the shelf properly. I think that with academic books the majority of authors would be okay with that (you make stuff all from royalties anyway). The book is expensive because you can only get it in hardback :-(

I'm studying philosophy. The kind of philosophy I do is naturalised philosophy of mind (embodied cognition). Basically looking at issues in psychiatric nosology (taxonomy / classification) and more in particular how genetic, neurological, cognitive, behavioural, and sociological facts interrelate for developing scientifically adequate models of the causal mechanisms involved in different kinds of mental disorders. Kind of hoping to sort out a bit of a solution to the biological vs socially constructed debate along the way by figuring out how all of the above factors relate (e.g., is the relation one of causation? constitution? identity? I feel a box plot with looping arrows coming on...) But as my panel have said... 'which of those theses will you be writing'?

:-)

Psychoanalysis / dynamic theories are something of a hobby... I guess I think of those as more of an art than a science.

Not sure what I'm going to do when I finish up. Ideally, I'd like to get a post-doctoral fellowship or two to do research. I'd like to work in philosophy but it can be very hard to get a post with a nice teaching workload and with adequate time to research. If I can't get that... Then I might just go to med school... Or... I would like to train to be an analyst... I think they take people with non-clinical backgrounds but I'm not sure that you are allowed to practice. Not sure how good I'd be at practice anyways... I'm not so good with validating others or myself in practice :-( I wouldn't mind studying more psychology... Personality and social cognition in particular. And more neuroscience and cognitive psych too... I love being a student :-)

(Sorry that got all long again)

:-O

I do believe that I've found my first wikipedia hoax article.
I'm fairly sure it is a joke... Reads like it has come out of the post-modernism essay generator or something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_philosophy

Why would anybody want to do that to embodied cognition?

wah!

i am learning a lot from this thread and agree with much of what Alex says.

when i worked as a substance abuse counselor, i found a few patients that i had a lot of difficulty establishing boundaries with. no fault of theirs.....it probably had to do with earlier experiences that i had had and subconsciously, i would "cave".....i'm not having any difficulties now with the geriatric patients, but i was having difficulty with a younger woman when i was working at a clinic here.

in my mind and in my past experiences, i think it is within the T to establish the boundary and work with it. i feel that this T is blaming you, Rap, and i don't find that very healthy. or wise. i know you're determined to work through this with the T, but it might be better for you to start with someone new.

you know you can "interview" Ts....i have. and i've been interviewed. one man told me that i was crazier than he was......and i told him that he was probably right and that we would make arrangements for him to work with someone else.

i admit preferring to work with patients that aren't substance abusers. and i KNOW that comes from being married to an alcoholic for 13 LONG years.......so, our past experiences definitely play into how we do things.

[Fuzzybear]

Rap.... I've always felt you're trying hard to change, and that you aren't complacent about therapy or life. I've felt for a while your T is too harsh with you
((((((((((((( Rap ))))))))))))))

[Rapunzel]

You don't have to worry about your writing being too long when you are so on-target with your responses.

I have a history of running away from therapy too, and I am determined not to do it this time. I do retreat mentally/emotionally though. I take my time writing back to her, and f2f quite often we sit and stare at each other, me not thinking of anything to say. I am afraid to try sometimes - afraid of 'getting it wrong,' even though there aren't right or wrong answers. I just want to avoid making the same mistakes again, but silence is one of the worst ones too.

My next appointment isn't for two weeks (last one was in October, and July before that). Then we will start every other week f2f. I'm hoping that this time I will be able to say what I really feel, but find the balance and not go overboard either. I think that finding the balance is my problem with boundaries too. Sometimes I self-disclose too much, and sometimes I am too closed off, and I don't do very well at knowing which is what. Some situations call for more self-disclosure than others. I also tend to relate to people by comparing myself to them, and that can get old. I am trying to work on that, but there are certain people with whom it is hard to resist.

We can choose therapists here, but if you go to an agency, or belong to an HMO, or your insurance company restricts who and what they will cover, etc., then you might not get much of a choice. It has taken me this long to realize that I did have a choice, and the current therapist is one that I chose and asked her to work with me.

Thanks for telling me about your studies. My study of philosophy for its own sake doesn't extend too far beyond reading "Sophie's World" by Jostein Gaarder, and also the amount of philosophy that is part of psychology, as psychology came out of philosophy and physiology. I have studied existential theories a bit. I am not sure what to make of that wikipedia article. Someone sure threw a lot of terms in there together, anyway. To someone not familiar with the subject that article is more intimidating than anything else. I could pick my way through it if I had time, which I don't. I'm on my way back to my old house (a 4-hour drive - should have left a couple of hours ago) do try to get more packing and cleaning done. I'll be back tomorrow night.

TC everyone!

Rap

[Rapunzel]

Mouse, Pat, and Fuzzy,

Thanks for reading and for adding your support too. I wish that I didn't always portray my T as so harsh. I tend to react strongly, and I struggle a lot, but I think maybe it is necessary for me. Or at least it's up to me to settle down and stop complaining and do something. I need to figure out how to show actual progress and not just say that I'm trying all the time. Trying doesn't seem to cut it. I am also worried about my ability to establish boundaries because it is a potential issue when I start working with my own clients.

Rap

[Fuzzybear]

(((((((((((((( Rap ))))))))))))))

it is always a bit of a risk as to whether these kinds of responses find or miss the mark... sometimes my rambly raves do miss the mark entirely. i am open to people saying 'bollocks', however. take what helps and leave the rest is my motto on boards (and in life more generally, i guess).

> I am afraid to try sometimes - afraid of 'getting it wrong,' even though there aren't right or wrong answers.

i think therapists can have more or less helpful responses to our self disclosures. if i say something that i'm embarrased about or ashamed of or something like that then i'm taking a risk. if the therapist tells me that my thought is silly or a cognitive distortion or that it is false then that response isn't so helpful because it inhibits my self disclosing. if the therapist responds kindly with validation then that response is helpful because i feel like they are respecting my experience and i trust their ability to do that and i am more likely to disclose other things that are hard.

because i have lots of thoughts and feelings that i'm so very ashamed and embarrased about. i think i'm a bad, horrible, disgusting, repulsive, vile person for having such thoughts and feelings. if i take a risk and disclose some of those thoughts and feelings and my therapist responds by trying to change them then i take that to confirm my belief that i am a bad, horrible, disgusting, repultive, vile person and that my therapist can't possibly accept me when i'm having those thoughts and feelings. and i can't possibly accept myself when i'm having those thoughts and feelings either.

if the therapist responds in a caring and validating way then i can internalise that and respond to myself in a caring and validating way when i become aware that i'm having those thoughts and feelings. and in that way... when those thoughts and feelings occur in me i don't judge myself harshly or beat myself up over what is going on. that really helps. and over time... those thoughts and feelings occur less...

i used to have these kinds of automatic thoughts occuring in me:
i deserve to die: i hate myself: i'm a vile, detestible, disgusting human being: i'm not fit for human company: i'm a disgusting pig: i'm lazy: etc etc. and i'd feel really very upset when they occured to me. they still occur to me, but i know they occur to me because they are things my mother used to say to me when i was a kid. i don't challenge them, i just acknowledge them. acknowledge them for what they are: things i've heard other people say that i've internalised. just because they occur in me doesn't mean i believe them. just because they occur in me (and i've heard other people say them) it doesn't mean they are true. i've learned to give myself a kind of inward hug and smile and kind vibes or something. like how my therapist used to respond to me when i'd share some of those thoughts and feelings with her. and i refocus my attention on something nice for myself. mindful awareness of the sky or a tree or thinking about my t. and try and half smile and be really very gentle with myself.

it is hard work... and it is an ongoing process. sometimes i'm much better at doing this than at other times. those thoughts probably occur to me... around 7 or 8 times every day. but they used to be a fairly much constant torment to me. they aren't a torment anymore. i have come to view them as something that shows me that i need some care. and i've come to learn how to care for myself by internalising some of the way my t used to show care to me.

trust can be hard... i'm a fan of taking little baby risks and assessing how they turn out. the biggest thing for me assessing the degree of risk in therapy is how the therapist responds, however. if i take a risk and they launch in with the cognitive restructuring then that risk has not paid off for me. i feel embarrased and ashamed about my self disclosure. i feel worse about myself. and as a consequence of that... i find it next to impossible to take another one of those risks...

i'm wondering if you are finding it hard to self disclose to your t because your t doesn't respond to your self disclosures in the most helpful way...

why did you choose your current t?

does she remind you of anyone...

i really enjoyed 'sophie's world'. also 'the solitare mystery' by the same author. while it isn't terribly politically correct to say so... there is a bit of a division in philosophy similarly to how there is a bit of a division in psychology with respect to psychodynamic theories and cognitive behaviour theories. there is continental philosophy (aka 'history of ideas') and there is analytic philosophy (aka 'problem solving philosophy'). explaining the difference can be hard... basically, continental philosophy focuses on different theorists (derrida and the like) and tends to engage in 'apologetics' aka 'what that person really meant was this xxx and clearly that is right...' while analytic philosophy has origins in philosophy of math and logic and language and attempts to solve problems by figuring out the answer regardless of what other people have said. you only read other people so you don't make the same mistakes they did... some people try to work between the traditions, but i have to admit i don't really know anything about the continental (and hence existential) philosophers.

there is a bit of a division in analytic philosophy too. between the people who work on 'philosophical problems' like the nature of truth, knowledge, belief, justification, good, right, mind, etc on a-priori grounds (by use of reason or analysis of concepts) and those who attempt to solve philosophical problems or problems that scientists have by reading up on the empirical findings and trying to develop a coherant theory that accounts for the data and makes novel predictions. with respect to the latter enterprise... the majority of scientists who turn to theory development get to count as philosophers too :-) the difference is supposed to be in intellectual training, however, where scientists learn facts by rote and then learn how to do experiments and then proceed to do experiments... whereas philosophers study what follows from what (logical entailments) so that (ideally) we see that there are many different theories that can account for the data and we are meant to be better at seeing the logical possibilities and digging out conceptual confusions and inconsistencies in theories... computer science has helped with respect to the notion of inconsistency. if there is an inconsistency in the program the program won't run. philosophy (of the analytic variety) is supposed to train you to spot contradictions so one can revise ones beliefs towards a more adequate conception of reality... thats my account anyway.

as such... sophie's world is more in line with the historical (continental) tradition rather than the analytic tradition. i didn't really get the opportunity to do continental philosophy. that is kind of a shame, however, because there is a long tradition of continental philosophers studying freud and lacan and jung which i would have loved. the analytic philosophers don't really do that (except to be fairly hostile) :-( reading continental philosophy is like reading another language to me because it has its own distinctive terminology which i don't understand. like 'being-in-the-world' and 'authenticity' and the like...

I'm serious about that wiki article being some kind of joke... though reading it again i don't know that the person is joking... but it really doesn't make any sense to me. i was only recently informed that what i was doing was 'embodied cognition' so i tried to look that up last night... that certainly wasn't what my panel had in mind, i'm fairly sure about that...

i think the notion is that there is this current project of people working in philosophy of mind where they treat the mind as a computer program. the notion is there are units of meaning (concepts) and there are logical rules of inference that govern the relations between concepts. they study the mind by studying the logical relationships between these atoms or units of meaning. a problem is... the 'grounding problem' or the problem of how those little units of meaning get to have meaning (which must have come from outside the system initially? nativists think these atoms are innate but that seems fairly implausible...)

there is a theory called 'teleosemantics' which tries to explain how we get those little meaningful atoms in virtue of our relationship with the world. they have lots of (possibly insurmountable?) problems, however.

i thought... the notion behind embodied cognition was that instead of looking at the mind or mental processing as being the very abstract manipulation of symbols according to logical rules... one looks at cognition as something that arises in order to get the body to accomplish certain goals. hence cognition is something that has evolved (by natural selection) in order for us to solve the problem of 'what do i do next' in real time (ie it is important to duck a looming brick fast!)

there are 'dual inheritance' models where there is genetic inheritance and also social inheratance via 'niche construction' which is when our parents and the like scaffold our learning by carefully constructing our learning environments. there has been some work done on how we learn to feel and express the higher emotions, for example, and how we learn moral behaviour. i want to apply some of that to how we 'learn' to be mentally ill aka how we 'learn' to express distress in different cultural environments. that should account for some of the cross cultural variability in behavioural symptoms while allowing a role for there to be the same underlying deficits to neural / cognitive mechanisms so that the same kind of mental disorder can express differently in different cultures. nosology should distinguish different kinds of mental disorders on the basis of these causal mechanisms rather than on the basis of behavioural symptoms (as behavioural symptoms evolve in response to evolving stereotypes of mental disorders). all very complicated... sorry...

i think you will make a good t :-)
hope your move goes well :-)

[Rapunzel]

I guess it's possible for little baby steps to be too small. I take baby steps, and it's just not enough. I think it really is all about balance, and I am just no good at balance. I'm at one extreme or the other. I have these fragmented ego states (not DID because they have always been co-conscious, but something like that only less severe), and they don't want to work together. Either I interact as the whiner who just wants to complain all the time, or as the student/professional who draws from careful research and words things just right but it overly intellectual. There are other parts too. Somehow I need to integrate them and balance them. The whiner gets me into trouble, and I've been working on keeping her at bay, but she is also more real even if I hate her. The student/professional part comes across as rather contrived or made up sometimes. She doesn't do feelings. That gets rejected too.

I chose this T because I took a class (a distance class, where I saw her on a TV screen but she didn't see me) from her and she was very helpful, and also warm and caring, in the class. Her comments on my homework were therapeutic. I loved going to her class, and would go home and email her afterwards, and her replies made me feel good. I am a good student, and the student/teacher dynamic worked very well. She seemed to like me as a student too, and even posted my work as an example for the class once when most of them weren't getting what she wanted, and I nailed it. By the end of the class we had started to talk about issues and me needing more therapy still after the previous therapist was no longer available. I wanted to keep the communication with T as a teacher, while I was torn because I knew that the only way to keep her talking to me was as a client, and I knew that I needed more therapy and was not willing to start over with someone who didn't know me at all, but I would have rather had her as a friend or mentor. I can't think of anyone she reminds me of, really.

Thanks for the explanation of philosophy. I have a lot of interest in the continental branch. I can see how logic has its place too, but the history and the ideas feel much warmer and user friendly to me. I didn't realize that there was such a division. Hmm, that's interesting. Sounds a little bit like the kind of split that is in me. I wonder if integrating those two sides of philosophy would have any chance of working out? And if not, I wonder how much chance there is that my parts could really work together.

I think it is also possible (in fact highly likely) that you are being too hard on yourself. That you think you have to change in order to be acceptable and that that might be precisely what is the barrier to change. I have this problem (I think most people do) where I have this double standard of what other people need to do in order to be acceptable, and what I need to do in order to be acceptable. Basically... Other people don't really need to do anything at all. They are worthy of respect and compassion just in virtue of being. When it comes to me, on the other hand, I think I'm just inherantly unworthy of respect and compassion just in virtue of being. If I work really really really hard so that I'm five times 'better' than everyone else, however, then maybe I can earn the right just to have just a little teeny tiny bit of respect and love.

One way around this is for me to practice thinking of myself objectively. Mindfulness can really help with this. There are different kinds of mindfulness exercises that you can do. Basically, mindfulness is about focusing attention. Attention is like a flashlight and it illuminates objects that fall under its scope. Attention is also like a flashlight in that there is always an object of attention just like how a flashlight is always illuminating some object or other. Attention is also a bit like a muscle in the sense that you can learn to have more control over it (where it attends and the degree of focus) with practice. (Practice actually changes / strengthens) pathways from higher cortical processing areas).

When you don't have much control over your attention then sometimes the flashlight automatically attends to things in the periphery and the flashlight kind of swings around all over the place. Or we see something that isn't very nice and the beam kind of fixates on that. The beam can change too so that you have attention distributed over a larger space of objects but none of them are particularly clear or you can kind of focus the beam over a narrower range of objects and they are illuminated more clearly and in focus. Practicing mindfulness exercises is like doing stretches to strengthen and gain more control over the movement of muscles. So you can choose to attend to helpful things and choose to divert your attention from unhelpful things and you can alter the degree of focus.

Some of the mindfulness exercises are 'first order' exercises. That is when you become mindfully aware of objects of experience that are in the world. You could choose to become mindfully aware (to focus your attention on) an object like a shell or a leaf. A sunset or the way the park smells. Most people typically start with becoming mindfully aware of those kinds of first order objects. There are also 'second order' exercises where there instead of the object of attention being something external, the object of attention is your experiences themselves. It is the difference between attending to the shell (first order) and attending to your experience of the shell (second order). Second order exercises also include focusing your attention mindfully on your thoughts, feelings, mental images etc.

What is interesting about these second order exercises is that it involves treating your mental states and experiences as objects. There are some exercises that can help with this. Linehan describes one where you visualise three layers of coal carts moving along before you. Coming in from the right and exiting stage left. When you become aware of a thought then you put it in one of the top coal carts and you can observe it moving across before you and exiting stage left. When you become aware of a feeling you put it in one of the middle coal carts and watch it exiting stage left. When you become aware of a mental image you put it in one of the bottom coal carts... That is a fairly tricky exercise but there are lots of exercises like that. It involves appreciation that you (the attender) are not your thoughts, feelings, or mental images / experiences. You are the attender and your thoughts, feelings, and mental images / experiences are simply objects of your attention and you can strengthen your ability to choose what to attend to. Over time... It can help one learn to see ones mental contents (and by extension behaviours etc) more objectively in the same way that we see other people objectively. Part of self soothing is doing for us what we would do for another if we saw them in distress. One part of the brain soothing the other part of the brain.

I tried to find something on the analytic / continental divide. It is hard. It is a political issue, I guess. Here is one opinion:

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/analytic.asp

I was reading this article yesterday and I thought you might be interested. It is about the persecutor / victim / protector roles and about the inner critic (like how you are hard on yourself). I really got a lot out of it. I don't know how much time you have... But if you (or anyone else) wanted to discuss it, then that would be terrific.

I don't think I can link to the article directly as if you follow the link to the article it will open a PDF.

If you go to here:

http://www.controlmastery.org/

You can scroll down to Thomas, 2005

Take care.

Rapunzel,

I can relate to your descriptions of the attempts to elicit sympathy from others and the please rescue me. I really do relate! And I recently discovered that I don't just want someone to rescue me... I want them to WANT TO rescue me. Being aware of this is a first step.

Have you and your T talked openly about this? If not, it might be a good idea to do that; it might make a difference in your current relationship by talking about it and deciding on boundaries that are acceptable to both of you. If you think you can't save this therapeutic relationship and will find a new T, I would encourage you to talk about this with the new T right away, as in the first session.

In fact, I have had these feelings about myself and my behaviors for a while but I haven't talked about them with my T. I think I would like to talk with her about this soon, as I think it surely affects the relationship; I know that it definitely affects my constant worry about her leaving me. Getting it out into the open will be good.

Thank you for talking about this.

And, Alexandra, thank you for all your information too, which is always so interesting and valuable. I have learned much from you and I'm always happy when you reply to one of my posts.

Rapunzel, I wish you the best. I too am tired of being stuck and of losing relationships that were meaningful to me but which were ruined by my neediness. I hope we both get past this by plunging right through it, and out the other side!

ECHOES

[Hopefull]

I have trouble accepting my behavior which seems to be required for change. I call myself a crybaby. My T tried to tell me that I am just sensititve. I just can't swallow that attempt at a re-think.
As for a harsh T, someone the responses reminded me of a class that I took. I did a pretend therapy session with a classmate. I played the client and he was the counselor. I complained about life being hard and he started to try to make me see it in a more positive way right a way. I felt as if he didn't believe me. So, I refused to even budge towards a more positive way of seeing it.
Afterwards, I wanted to try to explain to him that his approach would have worked a lot better if he was to have validated my feelings and empathized with me some before trying to change my perception. I am not big on changing my perception before I feel heard. That sounds like what some of these responses are saying.
I think it is hard to accept someone and encourage change but it can be done. I think my T does it sometimes. She had trouble when she wanted me to try and anti-depressant and never once ask me why I didn't want to. I know that at first I claimed up too fast for a frank conversation on the subject. Could you suggest to your T a way to modify her approach? Could you tell her some times that you felt that she was especially helpfull to you to help her figure out what will work for you? My T trys to tell me to tell her if something isn't working for me. But, I just can't do that. Have you told her how you feel when she says something harsh at that moment? (Again, something that I can't do with my T yet.) I wish I had the ability to do that with my first psychiatrist.

[Rapunzel]

Echoes,

You're right. It's not about wanting to be rescued. It's wanting someone to care enough about me to want to rescue me. If they do rescue me, then I'm not happy because what I want is for them to keep caring about me and liking me and taking care of me. My mother used to tell me that I would always be her child, and I didn't like that because the way she said it (or the timing) told me that she would never let go and let me be an independent adult. But here I am now that I am supposed to be an independent adult, wanting someone to take care of me for always, and rejecting that at the same time because I want to be independent and I am afraid of being smothered. How confusing!

Yes, this is a continual issue with T, and we are both aware of it constantly. If I did get another T, that would be one of the first things I would bring up. I hope that you will bring it up with your T soon. So much of therapy is in the relationship.

I'll just put in a (brief) plug for the article...

One of the things it talks about is healthy vs unhealthy roles. Healthy roles are: happy kid, manageable persecutor / critic; able / competent rescuer. Unhealthy roles include: unconsolable kid (victim); out of control persecutor / critic; impotent rescuer. It talks about how our experience as a kid leads to us internalising those roles. As a strategy for helping the client internalise the healthy version of those roles (the way out of the unhealthy roles) they talk about role plays where the client and therapist take turns... When the client is being the persecutor (internal critic) and the client is being the kid then eventually the kid will be at a loss as to how to respond... Then the therapist can step in (as the competent rescuer) and that is supposed to be emotionally healing. The client can internalise the healthy competent rescuer and that can lead to structural changes in the personality where the client is able to play competent rescuer to their own unhappy kid.

How do we learn to be a competent rescuer to ourself if we have never had that modelled? I've seen a lot of the unhappy kid :-( I've internalised my mother the harsh critic / persecutor. My Father played incompetent rescuer (he ran away). I need someone to show me how to do it...

I'm wondering if you could show your t the article and if you could work together... It is unclear to me how much your t is mirroring your inner critic...

Might be a different way for the both of you to look at the situation...

Maybe.

[Rapunzel]

Listening and validating and empathizing are the first things that we learn to do in my classes. People need to feel heard and understood before they can look towards change. Sometimes those things alone are enough for a client to be freed to find their own solutions. My T did that a lot at the beginning, but stopped because I didn't respond properly to it then. I have tried telling her that what she is doing now is hard on me, and that I need more warmth and acceptance. It doesn't go over well at all. I kept saying it, and finally she did apologize for not listening to me, and said that what she wasn't getting was that I couldn't do therapy, so she was going to terminate me. So I freaked out, because if I can't do therapy, I can't be a therapist, so I would be stuck in the life that I needed to get away from, and I ended up suicidal over it. Then I pulled it together enough to show her that I could do it. I have even sent her an example of what she wrote to me earlier on that I really liked. It's just not where we are now.

((((((echoes))))))
thanks sweetie, i enjoy reading your posts too :-)

> My T did that a lot at the beginning, but stopped because I didn't respond properly to it then.

how do you mean you didn't respond 'properly'???