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  #51  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:31 AM
UnderRugSwept's Avatar
UnderRugSwept UnderRugSwept is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missbella View Post
"Having difficulty" is a sane response to therapists who've abandoned their professional responsibility to behave like vindictive, angry children.
I have not seen any evidence that the OP has encountered such Ts. In my experience, most Ts are not like this.
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  #52  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:33 AM
PaulaS PaulaS is offline
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She claimed I showed negative transference towards her. I think most of such a statement is both unethical and based on speculations. She knew very little about me and my history and as soon as thereīs a therapeutic setting, every complaint or negative expression seems to be a basis for labeling or for putting a diagnosis to every behaviour.

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Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987 View Post
Was she saying you had negative transference toward her? Or was she saying she had negative transference toward you?
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  #53  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:34 AM
PaulaS PaulaS is offline
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Thanks for this.

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Originally Posted by Crescent Moon View Post
Can't believe she brushed you off with a negative transference label like that! I think you should go ahead and just count your blessings that you didn't invest one more second or dollar on her. You aren't the problem here.
  #54  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lolagrace View Post
I actually have not seen anyone making a diagnosis. What I have seen are people saying find a therapist who specializes in personality disorders will probably be the type of therapist who will have better skills in working with a client who displays her difficulties with trust and attachment and relationships, moreso than a therapist without that kind of focus.
You have to think about how it comes across though. If someone told me I should see someone who specializes in a certain mental illness (based on my postings here) it would seem like they are attempting to diagnose me. It's kind of a way of getting away with doing something we know we're not supposed to be doing. We know SO very little of someone here. Postings are such a small part of their life.
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  #55  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:49 AM
PaulaS PaulaS is offline
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This post is to diagnose by text and out of speculations. Noone can read that much out of a text to say things like

"I don't see a recognition of the T in the room as a separate individual. I suspect Ts are seeing much the same thing."

You donīt know the whole picture and still you seem to believe you have the right and perhaps also knowledge to make statements like this. How could you know if my questions to this potential T were of a kind that would undermine our relationship?

Just because itīs a therapeutic setting every complaint or opinion donīt have to be about personality disorders, lack of control or whatever. This scheduling thing that came up with this T could be translated into many other situations like scheduling appointments with your physician or a dentist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by feralkittymom View Post
"The T experiencing negative transference seem to be a bit of a clue to all heartbroken people here at PC. I now talk about posts about being abandoned in some way or another, a too common problem as it seems. How is it even possible that a T canīt receive this? Isnīt it a part of the healing process of the client? I think I know that much that Iīm sure itīs the way it should be.'

No, it isn't a part of the healing process. If a transference is sufficiently negative to undermine developing a working alliance, the T ethically should end the therapy, or not begin it.

There's a difference between projecting negative feelings about a person in the past onto a T within the process of working the feelings out (all competent Ts should be able to work with this); and projecting a holistic negative perspective of a T that excludes the possibility of the client experiencing the T as an independent participant in a relationship. There has to be enough space in the client's perspective of the T and the therapy process to allow for the possibility of a working alliance to develop. In its absence, therapy cannot succeed, and it would be unethical for a T to pursue therapy under such a condition.

Given the sorts of concerns you've raised in your threads, and the twisting and parsing of their responses in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas of their meaning, I don't see a recognition of the T in the room as a separate individual. I suspect Ts are seeing much the same thing. I can't help noticing the same pattern in your responses on your threads: you only "see" responses in the ways that reflect your opinions. I have to assume this is also true in your interactions with the Ts, and maybe others in your life. I think the recommendation to look for a T who treats personality disorders might be helpful. Not because of the specific diagnosis, but because it would screen for Ts who have the expertise and willingness to work with the broader pattern of relating that may be causing these preemptive ruptures. But your challenge if you want to pursue therapy will be to choose a T based upon their credentials and record of experience, rather than your personal reactions to them.
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  #56  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:51 AM
missbella missbella is offline
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In my experience, a significant number of therapists are fragile, unperceptive types who compensate for their fraudulent pretense with bluster and arrogance. More than therapists I've known personally (in therapy and real life) I see it in their writings.

Nothing happens in graduate school that confers life wisdom on anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsewhere View Post
I have not seen any evidence that the OP has encountered such Ts. In my experience, most Ts are not like this.
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PaulaS
  #57  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 08:57 AM
Anonymous50005
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I've never run into a therapist as you described. Lots of neurosurgeons though, a few lawyers, some teachers, lots of business people, . . . . . Arrogance and bluster are not unique to any one group. There is plenty of that to go around, regardless of profession.
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  #58  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:03 AM
PaulaS PaulaS is offline
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This post is based on facts you donīt have and you know way to little about me to recommend a DBT group. I donīt know about the conditions where you live but in my country a DBT group is for people who has been diagnosed with borderline and most often those people also act out in some kind of self-destructive behaviour, food, sex, cutting themselves and so on.

The potential T I met with told that she had already had clients whom she let e-mail her between sessions and before I even asked questions in an e-mail I asked her if it was ok. If she thought it might have a basis in some kind of personality disorder she couldnīt treat do you really think she had let me e-mail her?

Do you really think my former T had let me attend therapy for three months with her (she wasnīt within psychatric care or anything similar) if I had to be treated in a DBT group?

As you seem to have read many of my posts I have also earlier on told about that referrals were sent from my physician to T:s in a more psychiatric setting and they just told I wasnīt in need of that kind of care.

I agree there are some kind of dynamics to look in to but to suggest a DBT group without knowing me in person itīs not helpful. Such posts can only make it worse for people here at PC, such posts bring only unneccesary headaches. You may disagree around the certain event with this potential T and thatīs fine but when it comes to recommend different kinds of treatments, I donīt think anyone in here is qualified to do so just out of reading posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy View Post
This is what I think you misunderstand. The questions you have for her ARE the therapy. They are not to be asked before you decide to proceed with therapy, but rather they are the content of the therapy itself.

There is a reason you are sending her repeated emails with these questions. The questions themselves aren't as important as the fact that you are sending them. You had three evaluation sessions yet you still want more. You say you weren't attempting to continue the evaluation via email, but you were. If the email was about anything other than scheduling, it belongs in the T's office. Behind those emails are dynamics that should be addressed in order for your therapy to succeed, but you have to make an appointment to do that.

I think a DBT group would be great for you, and a T who specializes in personality disorders.
  #59  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:08 AM
PaulaS PaulaS is offline
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Thanks for this supportive comment. I agree to what you say and Iīve commented upon those posts that contained some kind of recommendations about treatments. Itīs of course fine to interpret situations with T:s differently and to ask for and give perspectives but not when it comes to diagnoses in some way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987 View Post
There is a lot of judging and "diagnosing" going on in this thread that is NOT supportive and not helpful and kind of disturbing. Paula, we are not allowed to give diagnosis or imply someone might have a personality disorder. Also you are not obligated to take anyone's advice here. Many posters get triggered by their own issues and respond based on that and it may or may not have anything to do with you. We know very little about your real life and how you are in person and how you are in therapy. It's very, very disturbing to me that people are so quick to judge and diagnose others here. Just keep in mind we're not allowed to diagnose people here.
  #60  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:08 AM
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DBT is used for a variety of people in most countries. You need to understand that when people from here recommend DBT, we are used to it being available for a variety of issues. No one is making diagnoses here. They are suggesting a therapy approach that they think might work well for your needs. People are trying to offer helpful support, but you are fighting that support all the way, even from peers. Okay. Your right to do so, but perhaps this is a pattern with people.
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  #61  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:14 AM
missbella missbella is offline
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I agree that arrogance and bluster is quite universal. However I think therapists' role makes them particularly susceptible because 1) They're often idolized 2) The therapy relationship itself often is engineered to put the therapists in the power seat 3) Clients may look to them for Life Answers they likely won't have, and they'll fake it. (Among other things)

In other words, I've often seem therapists fall victim to their own publicity.

Bottom line --I think it a recipe for harm to put therapists on a superhuman pedestal. No human has been cleansed of flaws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolagrace View Post
I've never run into a therapist as you described. Lots of neurosurgeons though, a few lawyers, some teachers, lots of business people, . . . . . Arrogance and bluster are not unique to any one group. There is plenty of that to go around, regardless of profession.
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  #62  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:19 AM
PaulaS PaulaS is offline
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I donīt think anyone in here knows enough about a person just by reading posts to even recommend certain treatments. You can of course talk about different kinds of therapy in a general manner but when using examples from what I wrote you also diagnose in a way. You speculate and interpret behaviours you havenīt seen for yourself.

Neither do you know how a diagnosis would look like in my country to attend for example a DBT group, perhaps itīs partially different from where you live, you donīt know.

As Iīve seen both a T and a physician and none of them ever mentioned DBT, I canīt see the validity in such recommendations from people in here who never met me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolagrace View Post
DBT is used for a variety of people in most countries. You need to understand that when people from here recommend DBT, we are used to it being available for a variety of issues. No one is making diagnoses here. They are suggesting a therapy approach that they think might work well for your needs. People are trying to offer helpful support, but you are fighting that support all the way, even from peers. Okay. Your right to do so, but perhaps this is a pattern with people.
  #63  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulaS View Post
I donīt think anyone in here knows enough about a person just by reading posts to even recommend certain treatments. You can of course talk about different kinds of therapy in a general manner but when using examples from what I wrote you also diagnose in a way. You speculate and interpret behaviours you havenīt seen for yourself.

Neither do you know how a diagnosis would look like in my country to attend for example a DBT group, perhaps itīs partially different from where you live, you donīt know.

As Iīve seen both a T and a physician and none of them ever mentioned DBT, I canīt see the validity in such recommendations from people in here who never met me.
Then what do you want here Paula? You don't want observations from people based on what you post. You don't want recommendations of therapy approaches from peers based on what they have experienced. You don't want any speculation, but that is all we can do on an internet forum. What do you want from us because pretty much anything anyone says here is rejected? I'll stay away from your threads out of respect for you needing that space because you clearly really don't want anyone to say anything unless is already matches up with your current thinking; however, sometimes people need to challenge their own thinking when it apparently is keeping them stuck. On the other hand, you may not be ready to do that yet and that's okay, and as suggested by other poster, perhaps you aren't really in a good place to start therapy right now. It's okay to not be in therapy if the whole prospect is in itself distressing to you.
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  #64  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:42 AM
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I think it is possible to just want to post and get it out without wanting suggestions or advice. Sometimes just wanting acknowledgement of being heard for example. I quit making threads except for ones that were polls because I did not want to be analysed and no matter how much I tried to make that clear, no matter how directly I said that, it was ignored. I hope OP finds a therapist who works, and I don't blame her or believe I get to judge her readiness for anything.
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Last edited by stopdog; Feb 21, 2015 at 10:02 AM.
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  #65  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 09:47 AM
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FKM, I usually agree with your posts, but I was shocked to have read this. I've had experiences with people who have that trait, so I tend to notice it when I see it too....but there was no evidence here of her not seeing her T as a separate individual. Nothing.

The only thing that came close to not seeing another as an individual person is what the 2nd quote below says: "a DBT group would be great for you..."

I mean, how could it possibly be known what's best for Paula? And ive' seen nothing from her indicating that she's even interested in DBT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by feralkittymom View Post

Given the sorts of concerns you've raised in your threads, and the twisting and parsing of their responses in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas of their meaning, I don't see a recognition of the T in the room as a separate individual. I suspect Ts are seeing much the same thing. I can't help noticing the same pattern in your responses on your threads: you only "see" responses in the ways that reflect your opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy View Post

I think a DBT group would be great for you, and a T who specializes in personality disorders.
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  #66  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 10:17 AM
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Paula, I didn't read all the responses before I posted yesterday; going back and reading them, I saw that no one mentioned something that may be relevant to this situation.

I've heard of this and experienced it myself in psychoanalytic circles. It's often referred to an "evaluation and referral" (E&R) process. Or something like that. After the 3 sessions, the therapist decides if they would be a good fit for you; if not, they would find colleagues who would be better matches. It's a good thing, in my experience--and it's mean to guide a patient to the best practitioner for him/her.

I don't know if this is what your T was thinking, but you said you "just counted on that she knew she would be available if I choose to begin therapy". You were making assumptions, no? It's also my experience that Ts don't explain the process and what they are going to do. In all the therapists I've seen, this happens more time than not. So she may have not explained this evaluation and referral process to you. I know it was confusing for me when I went through something similar.

And about the appointment issue - some do keep semi-permanent slots open during the week for existing patients emergency appointments or for if they request a 2nd session. So yes, those can change by the week. Not sure if that is what happened here, but I have also seen that in psychoanalytic circles.

I'm confused about the negative transference statement, especially about why should would say that instead of saying she's not a good match for you. Or maybe she did, and you wanted to know why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaS View Post


The thing here is that she let me see her for three evaluation sessions and as I talked positively about her and the sessions I just counted on that she also knew she would be available if I choose to begin therapy. Iīve had the evaluation sessions during three weeks, one session a week and as she every time told me about the same available slots, I thought I could count on that.

I found her behaviour quite strange because who lets a potential client into evaluation sessions without even knowing for sure thereīll be available slots when the evaluation is over? It was just plain "luck" that the only time on Wednesdays hadnīt been scheduled, it could just as well have been and then I hadnīt even had the opportunity to choose.

The other thing was, if she noticed that she got many enquiries and she noticed there were almost no slots left for me - why didnīt she tell me? Why did she let me continue in evaluation?

I e-mailed this potential T about this, she wanted me to e-mail her, not call her and I first got the answer that she believed I should see another T. She said believed and I both e-mailed her saying that I was still interested in seeing her even if I asked her about this thing about the available sessions.

I then also called her and left her a message in her voicemail and just said I wanted to talk to her about the whole thing and I left her my phone number.

Now, just half an hour ago or so, she sends me another e-mail and says her offer about therapy is no longer available. Of course she blamed me, she talked about negative transference!

Wouldnīt every potential client who sees a potential T expect the T to have available slots if you decide to proceed into therapy? How can this be negative transference?

As we several times talked about available slots - how can this be a reason for her to deny me to continue? I donīt understand any of this. Perhaps someone here at PC understands...
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  #67  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by stopdog View Post
I think it is possible to just want to post and get it out without wanting suggestions or advice. Sometimes just wanting acknowledgement of being heard for example. I quit making threads except for ones that were polls because I did not want to be analysed and no matter how much I tried to make that clear, no matter how directly I said that, it was ignored. I hope OP finds a therapist who works, and I don't blame her or believe I get to judge her readiness for anything.
I agree. I don't see Paula as really asking for advice, but more venting. People, I think, often post based on being triggered or based on their own experiences in therapy. It isn't to be taken very seriously. Some people staunchly defend therapists as if they can do no wrong. Some people (me) tend to be more negative about therapists. I can admit to being triggered and perhaps clouded by my own very negative experience. I think this is based on our own personal experiences.

What scares me is the "sort of" diagnosing and advice giving that isn't asked for or helpful and comes off as judging. It seems arrogant to me to offer unsolicited advice and then get offended when the advice is rejected and make assumptions about the poster based on how they react to the advice. It's also dangerous and can do a lot of damage to the poster.
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  #68  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 10:57 AM
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feralkittymom feralkittymom is offline
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FKM, I usually agree with your posts, but I was shocked to have read this. I've had experiences with people who have that trait, so I tend to notice it when I see it too....but there was no evidence here of her not seeing her T as a separate individual. Nothing.

Mian, perhaps instead of "separate," I should have said "autonomous individual."

The many personal characteristics of Ts that the OP has decided makes them unacceptable, coupled with the persistent and insistent ascribing of singular interpretations onto others' words strike me as objectifying. There's no expression of meaning as negotiable. No room for a T to act autonomously.

An objectified person isn't perceived as one who can have multiple motivations, intents, emotions--and also can't do anything to earn trust in a relationship because they're not seen realistically. If you've been in the position of being objectified, I'm sure you've sensed this. Ts can only be as effective as a client will allow them to be. Some believe that if they cannot get past the objectifying persona ( what the one T I think was referring to as a negative transference) that a client imprints upon them, whether it's positive or negative, then they won't engage in therapy. Some Ts, by nature of their training and interest, are more adept at working within such a context. In general, they are Ts who specialize in personality disorders.

If I'm extremely afraid of flying , most recommend a CBT trained T as the best able to help me. When it comes to issues of attachment and relating--issues the OP has referred to as problems for her--Ts who specialize in personality disorders are often best able to help. In either case, it's not about diagnosis or recommending treatment, it's about screening Ts--the central concern of all the OP's threads.
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  #69  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 11:14 AM
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Yes, but I think it's important to note that these behaviors can also be common with highly fearful people or people in a highly anxious state, which doesn't necessarily co-occur with objectification. Someone who felt traumatized, having had a sudden, unilateral severing of a relationship with an attachment figure might be hypervigilant about a Ts intentions, movitations, words, behaviors, and even body language. That's all i'm saying.

On the contrary, it sometimes may simply referred to is "not seeing the forest through the trees." Another behavior common in highly-anxious people.

Quote:
The many personal characteristics of Ts that the OP has decided makes them unacceptable, coupled with the persistent and insistent ascribing of singular interpretations onto others' words strike me as objectifying. There's no expression of meaning as negotiable. No room for a T to act autonomously.
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  #70  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 12:03 PM
Yellowbuggy Yellowbuggy is offline
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PaulaS:

I apologize if it appeared that I was attempting to diagnose you. It was not my intention, but I can see how it could appear that way.

I think T's specializing in personality disorders (including the disorder I've been disagnosed with, which I can proudly own) are best suited for managing clients with attachment difficulties. I believe you deal with attachment issues as evidenced by some of the questions you ask of your T. There is no judgment in that; I have attachment issues myself!

Quote:
She claimed I showed negative transference towards her. I think most of such a statement is both unethical and based on speculations.
This is an example of the type of thinking I believe may be working against you. I don't think the statement was problematic "because it was based on speculations." Every interpretation my T makes is based on a speculation, which I then consider carefully to determine if it 'fits.' This is the basis of therapy. Is there any interpretion she could make that would not be based on speculation? Or is it only those that you don't agree with?

I encourage you to be open to the feedback provided to you from your T. Question it in a non-judgmental way. Is there any basis to her speculation? Perhaps you do have negative transference due to your poor experiences in the past. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a reality. But what you do with it makes all the difference.
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  #71  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 12:31 PM
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Lauliza Lauliza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaS View Post
This post is based on facts you donīt have and you know way to little about me to recommend a DBT group. I donīt know about the conditions where you live but in my country a DBT group is for people who has been diagnosed with borderline and most often those people also act out in some kind of self-destructive behaviour, food, sex, cutting themselves and so on.

The potential T I met with told that she had already had clients whom she let e-mail her between sessions and before I even asked questions in an e-mail I asked her if it was ok. If she thought it might have a basis in some kind of personality disorder she couldnīt treat do you really think she had let me e-mail her?

Do you really think my former T had let me attend therapy for three months with her (she wasnīt within psychatric care or anything similar) if I had to be treated in a DBT group?

As you seem to have read many of my posts I have also earlier on told about that referrals were sent from my physician to T:s in a more psychiatric setting and they just told I wasnīt in need of that kind of care.

I agree there are some kind of dynamics to look in to but to suggest a DBT group without knowing me in person itīs not helpful. Such posts can only make it worse for people here at PC, such posts bring only unneccesary headaches. You may disagree around the certain event with this potential T and thatīs fine but when it comes to recommend different kinds of treatments, I donīt think anyone in here is qualified to do so just out of reading posts.
DBT was created by someone with Borderline PD for people with Borderline PD, that is true. Here in the states it is used with a wife variety of people however and is found to be very helpful. Lots of people have some traits found in PDs but don't qualify for a diagnosis, so I wouldn't take it as an insult. From your response it sounds like DBT is not used the same way in Europe so I understand your reluctance. In the US, even though it's used predominantly for those with PDs as well as inpatient, DBT is also widely used in less intense forms for people who simply need help with interpersonal relationships, assertiveness or social anxiety. People with out any diagnosis at all even find some of the techniques useful. So people suggesting it aren't trying up label you so much as offer alternative suggestions to standard one on one therapy.

Last edited by Lauliza; Feb 21, 2015 at 01:04 PM.
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  #72  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 12:39 PM
Anonymous37890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feralkittymom View Post
FKM, I usually agree with your posts, but I was shocked to have read this. I've had experiences with people who have that trait, so I tend to notice it when I see it too....but there was no evidence here of her not seeing her T as a separate individual. Nothing.

Mian, perhaps instead of "separate," I should have said "autonomous individual."

The many personal characteristics of Ts that the OP has decided makes them unacceptable, coupled with the persistent and insistent ascribing of singular interpretations onto others' words strike me as objectifying. There's no expression of meaning as negotiable. No room for a T to act autonomously.

An objectified person isn't perceived as one who can have multiple motivations, intents, emotions--and also can't do anything to earn trust in a relationship because they're not seen realistically. If you've been in the position of being objectified, I'm sure you've sensed this. Ts can only be as effective as a client will allow them to be. Some believe that if they cannot get past the objectifying persona ( what the one T I think was referring to as a negative transference) that a client imprints upon them, whether it's positive or negative, then they won't engage in therapy. Some Ts, by nature of their training and interest, are more adept at working within such a context. In general, they are Ts who specialize in personality disorders.

If I'm extremely afraid of flying , most recommend a CBT trained T as the best able to help me. When it comes to issues of attachment and relating--issues the OP has referred to as problems for her--Ts who specialize in personality disorders are often best able to help. In either case, it's not about diagnosis or recommending treatment, it's about screening Ts--the central concern of all the OP's threads.
I just can't see how any of this is relevant or helpful to the poster. We just don't have enough information to make these kinds of accusations (claiming the op is objectifying the therapist). I have read the same posts and don't see any of what you see. It's just your opinion and meaningless to the poster just as my opinion might be meaningless.
  #73  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 12:52 PM
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unaluna unaluna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987 View Post
I just can't see how any of this is relevant or helpful to the poster. We just don't have enough information to make these kinds of accusations (claiming the op is objectifying the therapist). I have read the same posts and don't see any of what you see. It's just your opinion and meaningless to the poster just as my opinion might be meaningless.
Its not just "opinion". Psychology might be a looser science than mathematics or computers, but people here arent just "making accusations". They are offering interpretations based on what they are reading and their knowledge and experience in the subject. The next step would be to refine the interpretation, together, until it does correctly reflect the op's experience. From there, a solution.

Calling it meaningless or "just opinions" is just a way of shutting down the discussion - i would ask why.
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  #74  
Old Feb 21, 2015, 12:55 PM
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Sometimes interpretations (which I believe often are opinions) are simply not wanted or are incorrect or misplaced or useless or just plain dead flat wrong for a person. I don't want them even from the therapist, let alone others.
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Old Feb 21, 2015, 12:59 PM
Anonymous37890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankster View Post
Its not just "opinion". Psychology might be a looser science than mathematics or computers, but people here arent just "making accusations". They are offering interpretations based on what they are reading and their knowledge and experience in the subject. The next step would be to refine the interpretation, together, until it does correctly reflect the op's experience. From there, a solution.

Calling it meaningless or "just opinions" is just a way of shutting down the discussion - i would ask why.
We don't have enough information to make "interpretations" like this though. The op herself said her own therapists and doctors never suggested any DBT therapy to her. Why are people here who don't even know her in real life making those suggestions? It doesn't make sense.

And everyone's interpretations are different so whose advice should she take? It gets too confusing for someone when we try to diagnose or tell people what they should do or make it seem like we're some kind of expert when we are not.
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