has been recurring thought
maybe baby died
maybe thats why he hasn't emailed me back yet
maybe i killed him 'cause of stuff i said
maybe i killed baby 'cause of bad thoughts
maybe somethin' happened to it and thats why he hasn't emailed me back yet
maybe he won't come back 'cause he'll be destroyed that somethin' happened
maybe his wife is really upset 'bout not
maybe he is really upset 'bout now
maybe he isn't thinkin' 'bout me at all
maybe i fell off the radar

or maybe everythings just fine
just fine
just so fine
just so fine i fell off the radar 'cause of that
i'm scared
i feel alone
i feel abandoned
i feel scared

[okiedokie]

Dear, dear Alex,
You are putting yourself through hell! Don't do it to yourself.

More likely than not, he is busy with his LIFE, which he has and yes, you are IN it.

Pdocs and Ts are just people! You know that ...you are studying to become one. And a fine one you'll be!

Try to let time pass. He will be back before you know it. Ts care very much about their clients, if they are any good. I'm sure your T cares about you and you can bet that he's grateful to read your email letting him know how you're doing.

Your thoughts are not having any effect, whatsoever, on his baby. Sounds like you may have freaked yourself out a little, is all. Try to remember to breathe and stay in your wise mind. I'm always very impressed when I read your posts. You obviously have a very wise mind.

Take good care of yourself. PM me any time if you want to talk offline.
Okie

[SecretGarden]

Maybe baby is sick, maybe baby is well, maybe baby is just not sleeping, maybe the internet is down, maybe daddy is taking care of mommy, maybe daddy is taking care of himself.

I am sorry..... Answers will come.

When does he come back?

maybe your email was so awesome and thought-provoking he is having a hard time putting together a owrthy reply.

focus on the one he did answer and the good feelings you got from that, ak.

you are still frree to enjoy thinking of him and being connected with him in that way.

keep talking to us. we care.

ECHOES

hey okiedokie. thanks for your response. yeah... maybe i am putting myself through hell... though... maybe... this is just a way of trying to tease out some of the emotions i'm feeling... i don't know :-(

> Pdocs and Ts are just people! You know that ...you are studying to become one. And a fine one you'll be!

thanks... but i really should clarify that i'm not studying to become one though i am thinking a little about studying to become one one day. at the moment... i'm a philosopher. i study issues in the philosophy of psychology / psychiatry... but theory theory theory rather than practice...

> Your thoughts are not having any effect, whatsoever, on his baby.

yeah. i know that really... i guess i just worry because there is some jealousy... and i feel bad about that. not very much jealousy though. mostly... regret. about my own past, i guess. sad.

but yeah. freaking out, i guess.

i told him it was okay to take his time to respond. and i thought i meant it. but of course i didn't really. or if i did then i have to take it back. because i do mind. i DO. i mind quite a lot actually. working up into a bit of a state worrying about stuff i sent him... i wish i didn't feel this way :-(

hey secretgarden.

> Maybe baby is sick, maybe baby is well, maybe baby is just not sleeping, maybe the internet is down, maybe daddy is taking care of mommy, maybe daddy is taking care of himself.

yeah. i guess thats the worry really. that i'm so insignificant i've fallen off the radar. which is understandable, of course. i mean this is an important time in his life. it is understandable that his thoughts and attention would be with them. understandable of course.

but that doesn't make it hurt any the less.

he comes back early next month.

though whether he fully comes back is a different matter.
and whether he was fully present before is kind of related...

hey echoes.

> maybe your email was so awesome and thought-provoking he is having a hard time putting together a worthy reply.

lol. i really have trouble believing that. sigh. but yeah... maybe he doesn't know what to say. the first email was about how he doesn't really need to say anything. then i thought 'and how the hell is he supposed to respond to that'? so i sent him another and tried to explain what i meant a little more. only it is hard because in the first i talked about boundaries a little. and how it was ok that he hadn't put limits on how often i email or how long they can be or whatever because often life is like that and limits aren't explicitly stated and i guess we could work it out but he needs to tell me if i'm too much. and i said i wouldn't email him again before i heard back from him. but i did that in the end. because i needed to let him know that i did want to respond. but i don't know whether that came through clearly.

and so i guess i'm panicking about what i've said. because a lot of it was about how i try and figure what i have to say what i have to do how i have to be so that someone will want to work with me. so that they will want to keep working with me. and i don't tell them what is really going on for me 'cause i don't know that they can / want to deal with that. and i shared some of my thoughts...

and he said it could take him a few days to reply...
but then i said he should take all the time he needs...
but it will be one week tomorrow...

and i'm surely panicking, i am.

he's sitting there going 'cringe. groan. how am i supposed to deal with this? that he is feeling like i've sucked him in like i've manipulated him into working with someone who i'm not. and now the truth is coming out and he doesn't want to deal with me. repulsed. i'm scared.

[SecretGarden]

Alexandra... I understand. He shall return and he may have sleepless nights but he will come back to you as all of this normalizes. That is my thought. Of course... what do I know. This would be my prediction. It is also all worthy of putting out there to him... and somehow I trust you may do that?

Well that is a couple weeks. Dayaham..... I bet you will hear from him before long.

Damn baby.... lol..... (said with empathy...and a little tongue in cheek.)

Hang in there.

Just read your response to Echoes... and a week seems a bit long... to me. But again we do not know what is going on there. Your thoughts touch me of how you are feeling. I think that while understandable, you need to give yourself a break ... I have an inkling he knows who he is working with.... and he is not displeased. Really. Oh the mind....

[SecretGarden]

A way miniature representation of what you just said.....

My first pdoc finally near the end of our time referred me to my current pdoc for meds. At a session with my first pdoc he started out by saying he was trying to figure out if he would stop by the fish market where second pdoc's son worked to get some fish. At the end of the session he said he thought he would indeed go get that fish. I said at what point of MY hour did you decide THAT? Ticked him off. I thought that my hour... was my hour... so there.

Oh so many years later... I still laugh at that one. 2nd pdoc laughed when I told him too. Guess he could relate to that expectation and being caught.

thanks secretgarden. ((((secretgarden)))) 'cause he should never tell me of course. whether the baby is healthy or whether it was born with downs syndrome or whether it was not born at all is none of my business. how he is coping with that / whether he is coping with that is none of my business. is not my concern.

only it is now 'cause he has told me that that is in fact what is going on with his life. i've seen his enthusiasm as he reassures me that there is no %#@&#! way that he is going to become too attached or over involved with me because he leads such as varied life outside therapy...

and i googled him of course. when i first started working with him. i think it is wise to google prospective clinicians. to assess whether they have been hit up for major league malpractice or not... it is important to know. and what i found... what i found (that i could never mention to him IRL or... what would take a great %#@&#! deal of trust for me to mention IRL)... what i found... was him falling apart in front of judge for discharging a youth who went on to commit suicicide. he justified his actions, yes. but he also showed considerable remorse. what he said in front of the judge was that in his clinical opinion he should not admit the guy because he was not mentally disordered. he said that in hindsight (with the knowledge that the youth was charged to the equivalent of youth prison / detainment where he was meant to be on 15 minute obs but where the place did not in fact put him on 15 minute obs becauae of a staff handover)... he said that in future he would admit such a case because of the way things turned out with this case. DESPITE the fact that he did the right thing clinically and the boy hung himself. He would do the wrong thing (ie admit) next time even with the knowledge that it was clinicallky the wrong thing to do.

that is what i found about him online. the coroners inquest into this death of a boy he had refused to admit.

that was all i found about him online (aside from how much he earns for his time in the public service which constitutes public information).

my heart went out... i figured he did DBT to learn more about suicidal threats and calls for help and what one should do in such situations (relevant to the suicide). the inquest... revealed him to be... i think i do want to say... semi incoherant in court. he was breaking up. the death of a youth who he discharged as 'attention seeking' was breaking hm up. i figured that was why he spent a copuple days a week in private practice doing DBT. to make amends. to make amends for writing someone off as 'attention seeking' and 'manipulative' wihtout taking them seriously.

i thought... he would be perfect for me.

although... one concern is that he will g3t too involved which will involve his breaking up / being unable to handle... yeah.

and... another concern is that he will guard against a recurrance by... throwing himself into everything hes got IRL. to never get so involved in his work again.

and of course i want to soothe him. let him know its okay for him to care about me. let him know that i won't kill myself. that its okay. but of course i shouldn't even know about this inquest (years ago admittedly). it makes sense of why he would want to fairly much donate his time (though he earns alright don't get me wrong...) but it makes sense of why he would spend so much time in the public service seeing people with BPD... trying to put past judgements right...

though...

it also makes sense of why he would indeed be keen to live such a busy and varied life outside of therapy.

and... part of me wants to fess up with what i know and soothe him...

and... part of me knows what it knows and wants to see whether he really has transcended / moved past that...

and... part of me wants to hurt him for judging this guy as a 'manipulative attention seeking liar' even though i understand that his primary objective was to be institutionalised under the mental health act (so his girlfriend could act) rather than under a criminal conviction (so they would have been drug testing her and the like.

and... am i supposed to tell him this?
can he cope with it?
part of me is curious... let this be a test...
but part of me... is forgiving... everybody fails some tests but doesn't mean they can't help...

can't tell him what i've found online. can't tell him i just wan tto soothe him... can't... can't... can't...

feel numb.. need to put this away. if he doesn't respond next month... well... therer is in fact a time when you have tocut your losses...

[SecretGarden]

Well I am at work... I admit it.

I just would like to give you a cyber hug though I do not know how that might feel to you. I wish you comfort so just accept it if it comforts you.

My first pdoc... had oh so many problems and I loved him as he let me in and finally I exposed my guarded self with him. In the time that I saw him..(about 8 years)... his house burned to the ground, he had surgery for carpal tunnel or something.. both arms, he had prostate cancer surgery and radiation (he actually told me that his balls were the size of raisins by the end of it all...and I do NOT share that with many), he had leg braces by the end and had a little ez ride thingie near the end of our therapy that he used not when with me but I knew he had it.

I share this for two reasons. I felt sorry for him. I sometimes was feeling like I was taking care of HIM. I do not think he demanded it.... or asked for it though he did share some vulnerabilities along the way. But....The other thing is that he persevered through it all.

I will talk more later. It is just hard.

I actually welcome the anonymity of this 2nd one (12-14 years?) that I have had for many years. I think the first one nurtured me which I needed but I think it affected my therapy with all that I did not wish to hurt him. This one... I can let er rip....and I do. I now wish (at this stage to be nurtured a bit ... feeling vulnerable, needy ) but I have grown so from just being able to be my show.... my time.... ME. Not knowing about him .... though some things of course just present themselves.... has helped me to be whoever I am and explore without boundaries... or at least as many boundaries.

I suppose I think that you, if possible should broach what you know... oh I do not know. I just do not wish that you take care of him. Unless somehow that takes care of something within you.... but ... nah... It all needs to be out in the open. JMO.

I will write more later. Take care.

[SecretGarden]

If the child is well or not....I think you need to know because as separate as he may wish to think he is between family and work.... it is bound to play in somewhere, somehow. Do not kid yourself. It is not your business as to the fineries but the overall....I think is fair territory.

i've been having dreams about him. had one the night before last. i can't remember the content but i remember him kind of standing across the room and i felt like i feel when he really is standing across the room. muddle of intense emotions. had one last night. he was sitting in the chair waiting... waiting... waiting for me because it was time for our first session back. i didn't show. because he hadn't replied to my emails. then he went to his computer and checked his email and he found... the emails. he hadn't seen them because he had been checking his other account. and he was mortified. that he hadn't checked them and that he must have hurt me real bad.

and when i woke up... i cried. and now... i think i'm able to be a bit more mature / grown up about all this.

i got to thinking on the middle ground between getting in touch with and expressing emotions and viewing things in a more grown up way. (i'm not at all meaning to be judgemental about the little feelings here). about the balance between getting in touch with and expressing the little feelings like jealousy and rage and disappointment and despair and feelings of abandonment and aloneness... and getting in touch with viewing things from a more adult perspective.

it is about being able to do both, huh. being able to get in touch with the little feelings and then being able to switch to a more mature view so that the feelings don't get too out of control. so that one can function in ones daily life.

i guess i've vented the little feelings well and truely.

time to kick the ego / superego (i do get confused sometimes ego i think) into gear... enough of the little feelings already... need to get into some work. yeah.

[sunrise]

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alexandra_k said:
he should never tell me of course. whether the baby is healthy or whether it was born with downs syndrome or whether it was not born at all is none of my business. how he is coping with that / whether he is coping with that is none of my business. is not my concern.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
alexandra, so, you don't want him to self-disclose. Can you tell him that? I wanted my T to self-disclose and I wouldn't do therapy with him unless he did. So he obliged. He has a strong humanistic streak so it was right up his alley. I remember in one session, he said to me, "sunny, tell me your needs. Do you need more from me, do you need less, what do you need?" I was just floored by that, because I don't remember anyone ever asking me my needs before. Certainly not the important people in my life, the ones who are supposed to love me. It was a huge moment and I was speechless. I realized that a T can use some guidance from us on what will work best for us, and therapy can be a lot more efficient if we give them some information to work with about what we need. So, alex, can you just tell your guy that you don't want self-disclosure from him? I bet he would understand.

Just a little aside on self disclosure: I've been reading this book lately that I really like called Their Finest Hour: Master Therapists Share Their Greatest Success Stories. Each chapter is a case study from a different therapist. These therapists use such different approaches, it's fascinating. Today I read a chapter from a Gestalt guy, Gordon Wheeler, who uses self disclosure, and I liked what he had to say about it:

"Wheeler is quick to point out that we are not to use our clients' therapy hour to deal with our own issues, in the sense of explore and resolve them. Rather, what is often productive is to disclose those feelings, and at times the issues underlying them, when that disclosure can function as an intentional, strategic intervention designed to clarify a stuck place and break through an impasse....

You can always open up your experience to the client. There is always a way to do it that is not about you, but is about serving the client's growth."

[Rapunzel]

Some clients like and need more self-disclosure, and some need less. If you want to know, and he is willing to tell you, then it is fine for him to tell you. I appreciate my T because she does tell me the basics of what is going on with her, like when she was depressed because her cat died. I wish that she would tell me more about her life, but I guess she knows where to draw that line. Since I know that I have problems with boundaries, I think it will be a struggle for me to know how much to use self-disclosure with my own clients.

Alex, I think that you should tell your T what you know about him if it is something that you want to talk about, or if it affects how you feel about him. It is okay for you to know, and you have a right to information that is public knowledge. It's fine to talk about it too. Feelings in therapy are very important, no matter what they are about.

[SecretGarden]

I loved your dreams. I hope you will share them with him.

I think your inner child and your adult are having a tug of war... know how that feels. Understand getting it in gear and ... taking the reins to control......move forward.

Others here... do bring up a point... How do you feel about his self disclosure.

Sunrise... Sounds like a thought provoking book.

Heading to bed early tonight....

hey guys. that book looks interesting, i might try and find that at the library :-)

i guess that with respect to self disclosure i don't mind if he discloses his thoughts / emotions etc in order to facilitate things. i don't want to hear facts about his life, however. i don't want to know his marital status or how old he is or where he lives or how many kids he has or what he ate for breakfast. well... okay... some stuff is fine. i know he used to live in sydney and that is okay i guess. but i could have done without the marital status and his wife being pregnant kind of information. to be fair i think he was telling me mostly because his time off was going to start from delivery and time of delivery is such that he couldn't tell me precisely when his month off would start. but that changed at any rate and he did end up fixing a date when his time off would start about a month beforehand. i think because he did indeed need to know this because you can't really go cancelling on clients and so he had to sort out when people were going to be booked in. i understand that he was well intentioned with that. but then he did look enthusiastic and excited about it too and yeah i think that was more about him than me... and he mentioned it every single week... and i don't know whether that was supposed to be for my benefit somehow or if he was finding it hard to contain his excitement...

i guess it is hard. i think he has been trying to show me that he is a person who is quite different from people i've known in the past. reality can kind of limit transference. maybe he was trying to help the transference not get too intense...

yeah, i need to get better at telling him what i need. i think i have done this a little more in the emails. yeah, one possibility is that he didn't receive them because of the email address thing. another possibility is that things are a lot more hectic in his life than he had supposed things would be. another possibility is that... he has no idea how to respond. that is a possibility, yeah.

with respect to the information i found online... i think he might be a bit mortified to find that the coroners report (which quotes extensively from the court hearing) is available online. i think he might be a bit mortified to find out that since he has a distinctive name when you type it into google with the double quotes and limit the search to australia first hit takes you to how much he earns and second hit takes you to the full coroners report. that there is extensive quoting of what he said in court.

he said things... about how this was deeply affecting him. about how next time someone presented similarly he would admit them even though clinically that would be the wrong thing to do. he seemed to be genuinely distressed. he didn't lose it exactly... but he was fumbling and stuff...

i'll probably tell him one day. because... it was after reading that that i got really excited about working with him. because i had wondered why on earth he choose to become so involved with the DBT program. because i figured... it was his way of making amends. you see... when he discharged this boy... he said that he had made a 'manipulative attempt to gain admission' (the boy attempted to hang himself knowing he was on 10 minute obs and knowing someone would find him and prevent him actually dying). that came up in court and he showed considerable remorse about having made such a judgemental claim...

i really don't think he judges me.

i really think he has learned not to judge. really learned. not just lip service. he has really learned that the hard way. makes sense of the interest in DBT (non judgemental stance) and the interest in self psychology (empathetic stance).

but... not for a while... i don't want him knowing that i worry about his frailty a bit in virtue of having found that. though... in a way it shows his strength too... but more to the point... the google hit mentions that there was an inquiry into whether he was guilty of misconduct. the upshot was that he was cleared completely... but that is about 50 pages into the report. how many clients would read the whole thing????? i don't think he would be happy to know it is there... and i don't want to be the one to tell him.

[Lemon]

Alexandra - don't you think that it is really likely that he knows the report is there? I mean, I think most people google themselves nowdays, so he probably knows. Or a friend or relative has almost certainly told him.

Don't be so hard on yourself that you would be causing him pain or brining him really bad news. I bet he could handle it even if he doesn't know already.

i'm not sure... i'm not sure that he does a great deal of stuff online. he seems to have difficulty sorting out his email accounts even. i think the problem might be... that he thinks an email account is associated with a particular computer such that he can't access a particular email account when he is using a different computer. but i'm not too sure what the problem is. he only has a couple hits which leads me to believe that he doesn't have an online presence. i might possibly tell him one day... but i can't see my raising it any time soon. i feel... like i invaded his privacy a bit already by reading the report. i have no idea why it is in fact available online. are coroners reports typically available online? i have no idea.

[SecretGarden]

Seems like everything is available on line these days.

Google yourself... you might be amazed.

I don't know what to say about that.... but yes...I am sure one can not go through that and not be affected. At work a SW friend came to me after a situation that a child was killed....she went through her clinical mental list... She said yes... I did what I needed to clinically... but though she would know that she felt she met clinical protocol....it was still a concern. How to rest the conscience.... not always easy. It is a professional liability... Oh what a job.