We started out today just talking about psychoanalysis in general. Told him how I had wanted to make sure when I was in a therapy that would reflect the type of work I want to do someday. Talked about different types of analysis, and the McWilliams analysis book I'm reading right now.... It was nice just talking like that. Not about me. Just about the theories and such. The notion of a diagnosis vs. a framework. My 'perfect fantasy' about my T involves us just sitting and hanging out, having an in depth conversation about psychoanalysis, etc... So this was as close as it ever came to fulfilling that, lol. (In the fantasy, I don't pay him, lol)

After a little while of talking about my impulse control (or there lack of), I begin to tell him how sometimes I feel like I'm not cut out for marriage. I tell him how a lot of the time I just don't care a whole lot about other people. I tell him how I feel like this is really wrong and defective. I was telling him how I couldn't even bring myself to go back to NY for my best friend's son's christening. He brought up the notion of how stuff with babies tends to bother me. I tell him how I don't think I could ever have children-- how I saw a mother, father, and their baby in the supermarket. The mom said to the baby, "You're so cute" and kissed her. I felt like throwing canned vegetables at them. I told T that I am trying to accept the fact that I wll never have anything like that. T said that it often seems that I am grieving. I told him that this is true-- that I often grieve and mourn for things I have not lost yet. He said, "Or something you have already lost." And that really got to me. Because he's right. I had started to think of my father, and how I constantly fear losing him. I began to have really vivid anxiety images of being at my father's funeral, etc. I told T about this and we talked some more about these perceived losses.

The end of the session was pretty much there. I felt myself getting really disconnected as I knew we were about to end. I told T, "I want you to know that something isn't right. I can't exactly pinpoint what it is, but I know that it is itowards you." I told him that I was getting angry that the session was about to end. That the minute I left his office I would be disconnected. That it is a beautiful day, and it's Friday, and I won't be able to enjoy it because of what I feel like when I leave. I told him that the only time I ever feel connected is when I'm with him.

He told me over and over that it's okay to be angry with him. He said that it is a beautiful Friday and that if he had to sit with someone who was bringing out all of these upsetting feelings, resulting in him being unable to enjoy the evening, he would be angry, too.

He said that we would work on taking a little piece from the each session to help me stay connected. He said that in between now and Tuesday, I can leave him messages if I need to. He told me that if I feel mad at him I can call up his voicemail and if I want, say, "This is Robyn. I don't want you to listen to the rest of this message right now....." and that I can say whatever I want to say to him, and he won't listen if I don't want him to. That we can listen together at the next session. And you know what? I trust that he wouldn't listen, if I said at the beginning of the message, that I didn't want him to. Then he said, "Or you can just call and go right into it and say, Hi, you %#@&#! %#@&#!." He must have told me a million times that I can leave him messages if I want to. Or I can write. He told me that I can write, and bring it in and read it, or I can bring it in, and crumple it up in front of him if I need to. He was trying in every way possible, to help me stay connected. To keep me safe.

I have never felt someone understand me on such a deep level before. He is truly an amazing person. I spent a lot of time looking directly into his eyes. But it is so %#@&#! painful. After I left, I tried to find the comfort in what had just taken place, but instead, all I felt was pain. I felt the type of pain when someone you love has just been ripped away from you. I hate this disconnect.

So often when I am with him, I try to play the adult. Today I felt like the child. But I felt like I was cared for. The hardest part-- I need him so much, it hurts. The connection was almost too much to bear. And I guess I was feeling so much at the end of the session-- anger and abandonment just for the simple fact that the session was over. I cannot help that reaction.

I want to badly, to be able to keep what I felt when I was with him. The tears came the second I walked out of the room.

hey. i like the abstract conversations about process too. i find that (when all goes well) there is an understanding connection. an adult kind of connection. that is a need i have as well as the more childlike kinds of connection.

> I tell him how a lot of the time I just don't care a whole lot about other people.

when people are feeling pain / distress then that tends to capture their attention such that it is indeed hard to focus on and care about others. it can also be scary to care about others because caring means they have the power to hurt. i quite often think that i don't feel like i care for them because i'm repressing the caring because i'm afraid of them hurting me.

> I tell him how I don't think I could ever have children-- how I saw a mother, father, and their baby in the supermarket. The mom said to the baby, "You're so cute" and kissed her. I felt like throwing canned vegetables at them.

i feel the same. sometimes i feel mad for what i never had. sometimes i feel so much pain and grief it feels like my heart is breaking. i don't think i'm ever going to have kids either.

> I often grieve and mourn for things I have not lost yet. He said, "Or something you have already lost." And that really got to me. Because he's right.

yeah. when i was little i didn't know what was wrong. something felt wrong but i didn't know what it was. something was lost but i didn't know what it was because i had never had it.

the phone stuff sounded great. hang in there.

[sunrise]

pinksoil, that sounds like a great session.

I agree, you have an amazing T!

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I told T, "I want you to know that something isn't right. I can't exactly pinpoint what it is, but I know that it is towards you." I told him that I was getting angry that the session was about to end.

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I am so impressed by how honest and direct you were able to be with him, how quickly you were able to sense something was amiss and verbalize it. I have the problem that I often don't feel what is wrong (or right) about therapy until after the session is over. Then I realize I am upset or sad or bewildered or whatever. I really look up to you for being able to sense your own feelings in the moment. How do you do that?

[sidony]

Hey Pinksoil,

You have such an amazing therapist. That sounds like a fantastic session. I'm sorry it's so painful when it ends. I'm hurting right now because I won't see my own therapist next week, but I do keep trying to remember the last session and the things we said. It was a good session too.

Cool that you can talk so much about the process! I don't have any background in psychology so don't get to have those kinds of discussions. Although I do end up reading a lot about psychology. It's really fascinating stuff.

I think I won't have kids either. Somewhere in me I know I don't have the ability to bond with a child. I've mentioned that once or twice in therapy even. I guess it's a moot point since I'm not even dating anyone (let alone getting ready to procreate!). But sometimes it seems sad to me that the parts of life that seem so normal to other people feel like such alien ideas to me. Maybe I grieve for things I don't have also.

I think it's great that you were able to talk about the disconnect you feel after therapy. And he seems so wonderfully supportive telling you to call and all that. I hope you'll do it when you need to. I never seem to have the nerve to call my therapist though sometimes I come in and tell him that I wanted to during the week. And we talk about why I don't. I guess I have a strong need to look like I'm not needy. When really I'm hopelessly dependent....

I always love reading your posts Pinksoil. I feel like I can relate to a lot of the things you say. I'm really sorry that you're in pain right now. I hope you will find ways to remember the connection outside the therapy hour.

Take care,
Sidony

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alexandra_k said:
hey. i like the abstract conversations about process too. i find that (when all goes well) there is an understanding connection. an adult kind of connection. that is a need i have as well as the more childlike kinds of connection.

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Yes, that's exactly it. I need to have that adult, colleague-like connection with him.

Then there's the child. He takes care of that need, too.

It's all very fulfilling, really. But only in the moment. When I get outside, I'm spinning.

I was reading about the primitive defenses. About introjection. That when something outside dies, you die with it.

I have no object constancy.

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sunrise said:

I am so impressed by how honest and direct you were able to be with him, how quickly you were able to sense something was amiss and verbalize it. I have the problem that I often don't feel what is wrong (or right) about therapy until after the session is over. Then I realize I am upset or sad or bewildered or whatever. I really look up to you for being able to sense your own feelings in the moment. How do you do that?

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Thanks, Sunny. Maybe you are able to sense your own feelings in the moment-- just not ready to recognize them yet. I believe that we know what we are feeling-- but it's up to our unconscious to decide if we are ready to recognize it. I think that I have started to feel safe enough with him that I can recognize and admit my feelings in the moment. It's difficult, especially when it has to do with anger towards him. It helps because he is so in tune with my emotions in the moment.

He told me yesterday that he can feel what I am feeling.

There are some emotions that I am not ready to recognize in the moment. Not safe enough yet. Been with him for almost 2 years. Have never shed a tear in front of him. Not once.

Sun, I think you said you have cried a bit in front of your T. If I am correct about this, then you have sensed your emotions in the moment. There is no deeper way to say, "I am sad," and to have him join you in that feeling.

yeah. when my dad left part of me just crumbled. died or something. i know what you mean.

i found this poem today:

They %#@&#! you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
The fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you

But they were %#@&#! up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were sloppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man,
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Philip Larkin

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sidony said:
But sometimes it seems sad to me that the parts of life that seem so normal to other people feel like such alien ideas to me.

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I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sometimes I am happy with who I am-- fairly strange, quirky, intense, would rather read a book about psychoanalysis or write a poem than go out and do something "fun." Not good at making friends, but often content with being by myself or with my husband.

But sometimes I look at what seems normal-- going out with friends, being stupid and girly, watching the same TV shows that everyone else watches, relating to other females, wanting to have children. I don't know. I get sad for what I will never have. Wish I was less intense at times. Wouldn't hurt so much. Used to obsess about having a baby. Would have repetitive dreams about being pregnant and being so happy about it, but never going to the doctor to confirm the pregnancy. Told T about the dreams.... then one day, the want stopped. Can't even imagine being a mother, caring about someone else that much. Sort of disgusts me. Very childish-- sometimes feeling like I don't want another person involved in the relationship between me and my husband. Lucky that I married someone who isn't that keen on having children. He will say, "If we ever have a kid...." But I am lucky that I didn't marry someone whose goal is to have children, or I'd be in trouble... I am too caught up in the notion right now that I am the child. Don't want my place taken. Was sitting outside on my stoop yesterday after therapy. All the kids were outside playing. I was sort of feeling heartbroken, ripped from my therapist, all because the session had to end. I wanted to read. The kids were talking to me, and then one little girl from down the block, about 4 yrs. old, sat next to me. Really close, almost cuddling with me. She wanted to ask me if I liked breakfast. It was so innocent. Felt nice, almost comforting, in a way. Didn't know what to make of it.

[SecretGarden]

Pink.... This whole thread is like a .... not a land mine but maybe on a smaller painful way. I see things that I relate to in so many ways.

I am glad that your child came out ...

I like your T....

"He told me yesterday that he can feel what I am feeling." That touches me in that he verbalized that. I used to see it in my first T's eyes.. and sometimes this one's but how powerful of a connection.

I will not/have not have kids for the reason that my parents did not connect with me... a conundrum perhaps I was... I feel a mix as I do not think I would be good mommy material. That does not make me any less sad for that valid decision.

The phone thing indeed is interesting... perhaps he is looking for ways for more to come out.

My T does not allow messages on weekends and during the week... he says...messages can not exceed one minute.

Consider yourself lucky.

[MissCharlotte]

PS,
You have a wonderful relationship with your T, so open. The little girl was you, wasn't she? Maybe there's a connection between how you were feelng ripped away and the closeness to the little girl. Maybe she felt that once. I can phone my T if I need him. I just don't do it easily. Maybe that wlll come in time. I'm afraid of overstepping boundaries. not that he has set any, they are in my mind.

Good work!

[Lemon]

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pinksoil said:
I tell him how I don't think I could ever have children

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I don't think I want to have children either. I used to just assume that's what I'd do because isn't that what happens when you grow up and get married??? But, I don't think I could handle the stress of a child. I'm definately a worrier and a child seems overwhelming. Now that I read this thread I realize how many of us don't want children. IRL everybody around me at work is pregnant or just had a baby so its hard because everybody says they think I'm next even when I say I'm not planning on having children.

[(JD)]

(((hugs)))

[sunrise]

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pinksoil said:
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sunrise said:

I am so impressed by how honest and direct you were able to be with him, how quickly you were able to sense something was amiss and verbalize it. I have the problem that I often don't feel what is wrong (or right) about therapy until after the session is over. Then I realize I am upset or sad or bewildered or whatever. I really look up to you for being able to sense your own feelings in the moment. How do you do that?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thanks, Sunny. Maybe you are able to sense your own feelings in the moment-- just not ready to recognize them yet. I believe that we know what we are feeling-- but it's up to our unconscious to decide if we are ready to recognize it. I think that I have started to feel safe enough with him that I can recognize and admit my feelings in the moment. It's difficult, especially when it has to do with anger towards him. It helps because he is so in tune with my emotions in the moment.

He told me yesterday that he can feel what I am feeling.

Sun, I think you said you have cried a bit in front of your T. If I am correct about this, then you have sensed your emotions in the moment. There is no deeper way to say, "I am sad," and to have him join you in that feeling.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Thanks, pinksoil. That made me feel good to have you point that out. I guess I have cried with him, so I can sense my feelings sometimes. I liked what you wrote about the unconscious. I think that is partly what is happening.

That is wonderful what your T said about how he can feel what you are feeling.

Very interesting the discussion on children. I always wanted to have kids. I think I wanted to create the relationship with my kids that I never had with my own parents. There was something healing in it. I was never one of those to coo over other people's babies before I had kids, but I loved mine dearly and of course, still do. I've taken 3 road trips recently with my oldest daughter and we have had the best time. There are moments of total honesty and connection, and it just warms me so to know we have this and to experience it. Of course, there are a lot of disconnected moments too (as with any teenager!), but what we have is so much more than what I ever had with my mother. I would throw myself in front of a truck for her, or for my other daughter too.

That said, I definitely do feel disconnected from what a lot of people are into. Like shopping. I cannot stand to shop and I am not into clothes or make-up or anything like that. My eyes just glaze over when I am with women who describe to the nth detail their outfits and the fabrics and accessories and earrings and shades of eye make-up and stuff. I met up with some friends once to go shopping at a designer outlets mall. It was profoundly boring. Lunch was the best part when we could just chat. I really tried to do the shopping thing, but near the end, I just had to go sit in a chair in the middle of the mall and doze. After many years of knowing what I like, I'm OK with that. And I really appreciate my friends who are the shopping type and know me and understand how I am and accept that.

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The kids were talking to me, and then one little girl from down the block, about 4 yrs. old, sat next to me. Really close, almost cuddling with me. She wanted to ask me if I liked breakfast. It was so innocent. Felt nice, almost comforting, in a way. Didn't know what to make of it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Was she real? Could be an ego state. Such a sweet story.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
The kids were talking to me, and then one little girl from down the block, about 4 yrs. old, sat next to me. Really close, almost cuddling with me. She wanted to ask me if I liked breakfast. It was so innocent. Felt nice, almost comforting, in a way. Didn't know what to make of it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Was she real? Could be an ego state. Such a sweet story.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, she was. It was this little girl from down the block. First she came over to show me what she got from the ice cream man. Then she came back to discuss breakfast, lol. It was very sweet, but I was going through so much emotion from just coming from therapy-- a place in which I felt like a child-- safe at one point, then distraught that I had to leave-- it was sort of overwhelming when this little person came over and sat real close to me.