[lauren_helene]

Hi everyone!

I had my session tonight and the rollercoaster begins again. I don't know how to feel right now.

I was telling my T about some doubts I'm having about my husband these days. I mentioned that I had a list of what I think he might be doing (like I did with him awhile ago) and he said 'well, you don't know me like you do this person' so your instinct might be right about my husband(paraphrasing here).

Then vintage me said 'I know enough about you'. Meaning I know enough to know I like my T. Leave it to me to focus on him rather than my husband...and this was not relevant to the discussion!

Our discussion then became what I think, vs what he thinks, vs what I think about whether or not I know my T. I even went so far to say that he's not the only one trained in human behavior and I know I like him...

He explained that what he meant was I don't know what he is like outside of the session or anything about who he is'(rub it in some more why doesn't he? ).

I then said I think of him as a good friend (he told me to think of him this way) and usually I know more about my friends than I do him. He mentioned the word 'boundary' again and I told him if he says that one more time...I'll implode.

So can anyone here tell me why I had to spend time going off topic with him to argue about whether or not I know him!!!

And now he's booked so I can't see him again until 17 days from today...

It's probably my fault for not scheduling ahead. I don't know how I'll survive this one. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn't holler at me...

hey. i expect there is probably something of a middle ground with respect to how much you know your therapist...

it is true that you don't know what he is like outside therapy. but... one would expect that some generalisation would go on from qualities that you observe in therapy (ability to empathise or whatever) etc etc.

not perfect generalisation to be sure...

but c'mon... does he think he has multiple personalities or somethin???

[lauren_helene]

You're right. I have made some generalizations based on working with him for over a year. I don't think I'm wrong about the good things I think I know about him.

I'm wondering what it is I don't know now...<giggle>. A challenge for me to focus on 17 days from now...!

he might be thinking of things like your not knowing what his favourite colour is or when his birthday is. where his favourite restaraunt is, what his hobbies and pet peeves are. whether he likes the cap on the toothpaste or whether he leaves the toilet seat down or whatever.

IMHO... those things... don't really define a person, however.

he might be thinking that you idealise him (by overgeneralising). he might be thinking that you think he listens to his wife and his kids and his boss and everyone on the streets the way he listens to you. he might be thinking that you think he doesn't really have needs / desires / much in the way of feelings / thoughts of his own... instead he is just whatever you want him to be... he might be thinking that you think he never has bad days. that he never gets %#@&#! off with the world or depressed with life. he might be thinking that you think he has it together all the time and that he can perfectly do all the things he is trying to get you to do...

that being said:

'if i had vision who would i see?
maybe its you and maybe its me...'

aspects of the relationship are very very real indeed. if therapists think we can learn nothing of their character / personality from our interaction with them... well... denial or self-delusion methinks ;-)

[MissCharlotte]

Almeda,

Oh we know plenty about our T's! Otherwise, we wouldn't go back week after week. There is a certain gut instinct that tells us whether any given situation is safe or not and if we were not feeling good about the T we would not keep going back after a while. It is the nature of the give and take that gives us insight into another person in a relationship. For heaven's sake, they know more about us then we tell them right? So why not the other way aroun?

I also don't think you went off topic. Maybe that was what you needed to discuss at that moment. So, good for you. Hang in there, I agree 17 days is a long time to wait...grrrrr

[lauren_helene]

Thanks Alex and Sister

I do respect him a whole lot and like the style he communicates in, even though I've obsessed over our conversations at times.

It was good that we had this conversation yesterday. He did say a lot of nice things to me which meant the world to me. I don't have many in my life that don't shake their head when I talk, joke or whatever. Besides you all here of course!

I just can't go 17 days...I don't see how. I could've had an earlier appt at like 10:00am or 2:00 on certain days but with work that is difficult to do. He's completely booked next week.

Okay, time to have a pity party

[Perna]

Hey, you have to explore "know" and how one knows different people and husband versus T, etc. It sounds like a very useful session to me! Because T's are "different" and how we relate to them and what we "know" about their character and about how we feel/relate to them, etc. it can be very helpful thinking about them rather than more "familiar" people (husbands :-) whom we are pretty sure we do know (but they may surprise us, we may not know them as well as we think we do).

I don't think any session with T is "wasted," there's always something to learn and/or a single session is not the whole relationship. Each session is both important in itself but also a "drop in the bucket" of one's whole therapy experience.

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almeda24fan said:

And now he's booked so I can't see him again until 17 days from today...

It's probably my fault for not scheduling ahead. I don't know how I'll survive this one. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn't holler at me...

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17 days. You don't have a regular weekly appointment day/time with him?

I think that maybe it's okay that you went off topic about whether or not you know him. I believe that in therapy, everyone that is said, is because it needed to be. You are working something out... even if you don't know what it is at the moment... if even your unconcious is still holding onto whatever it is... you are. You are doing work. Spend some time making connections about why it was important for you to talk about this with him. To state to him that you know enough about him. What would it mean to you if you really didn't know him? I don't know what the doubts are that you having with your husband, but maybe they are related in some way to what happened in therapy? Things do not happen by accident in therapy... there have been times in which I have talked about 2 or more things that are seemingly completely different-- and have also wanted to hit my head against a wall for not being linear-- only to have him point out to me (or at least help me to see-- he doesn't do a lot of direct pointing out, he likes me to see things for myself), that the things that I talked about were related in some way. Sometimes you just have to dig extra deep to find out what the connection is-- it is hard because occasionally I ask... am I reaching too far for this? I can usually tell the difference between when the connection makes sense and when I'm just going overboard. I hope you are doing okay today.

[sunrise]

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So can anyone here tell me why I had to spend time going off topic with him to argue about whether or not I know him!!!

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almedafan, I don't necessarily think your discussion was "off topic." There is no assigned topic for each session. You get to choose what you will talk about and you chose to talk about whether you know your T or not. It's OK! Sounds like it was a good discussion. And it's OK you started on one topic and veered off into something else. I do that all the time. I actually think it's important to go with those veers, they are often meaningful.

An alternative explanation is that you really didn't want to talk about the husband topic because it was too painful, dangerous, etc. And you used the topic of knowing your T as a way to avoid that. Only you know why you did it. Maybe journal some on the topic until you figure it out. (((hugs)))

I think you know a lot about your T. Who is he kidding? And I love your comment, "I know enough about you." Really, so true. That reminds me of the concept of the "good enough therapist" in psychotherapy. I definitely think you know enough about your therapist and in fact consider that quite profound. I hope he listened to what you were saying.

[lauren_helene]

I've been thinking all day what I want to respond to you Sunrise and Pinksoil. It's been an emotional day with me ending it in tears. But these aren't entirely sad tears.

I've really been exploring since yesterday what makes me unhappy and needs to change. My T said that I deserve to be happy and he wants that for me. That really touched me. No one has ever said those words to me before believe it or not. I can tell with him that he is sincere when he says stuff like this. His face softens and his eyes smile...

Anyway, I changed the topic yesterday to whether or not I know him because it was difficult to face what we were talking about. I love my husband but we aren't right together. This past year and a half I've learned through T how I picked not just my current husband but my former one too. I'm picking what I think are safe and stable men but it comes with a price because we are more friends than a true couple. There is no intimate love.

I don't get anything I need from my current husband. We are in reversed roles. Intimacy is not his thing. He never seems to need to hold my hand or put his arm around me. He hates me spending time on the computer but when we are together, we watch 24 or American Idol or whatever and we laugh like two friends. But that's it.

I don't even need to say how our sex life is. I'm sure you can tell from what I wrote above. I have been struggling for some time with my husband. He refused at first to enter therapy with me or even go just once. He made a huge scene at one point saying he demanded that I stop seeing my therapist. This was like a year ago and he's changed significantly with this part. Now, he likes that I have my therapist. Actually, it lets him off the hook.

My job is another change I need to make and I'm already thinking about that.

This is probably why I freak whenever T and I discuss eventual graduation. He knows and agrees that I am not ready right now. The thought of losing him at the same time I am realizing all of this is just frightening to me.

I know it is his job but my T is so much more than that to me. Since a young age, I had the same problems I have today. Not one diagnostic test was ever requested or done. My parents rationalized away any thought that something might be wrong. A failed suicide attempt at 16 years of age just left more suffering and more burying of these emotions.

My T has changed all of that. It hasn't always been easy for me, this process, but I'm realizing more and more what a treasure he really is. On my first day with my T, I was there for hours for testing and discussion. It was like I already knew him somehow. I also felt like 'okay I'm safe now'...I can't explain it better than this.

Because of him, I had faith in therapy again and thought this time, it'll be different, I just feel that. I won't be going back for 17 days....aargh! But perhaps this is good. I've gotten this far in just one day.

The conclusion for me tonight is that I need to make myself happy. I never really thought I deserved that. I have a son who loves his parents but I fear that if he does not see true love between us, it will impact him forever.

I wrote all of this down in a letter to T (and more). I won't fax it, mail it or deliver it. But maybe, I'll ask him if he will let me read some or all of it to him. I have a feeling, the next session will be our most profound if I can read this to him.

Thanks for letting me ramble...

[sunrise]

Almedafan, I am in the midst of a disintegrating marriage that has lasted for almost 20 years. It is the most painful thing I have gone through in my life. Over the last 1 year and 8 months, I have gone through one counselor and now my T during the process of trying to deal with this. There was a time I took months off from therapy because I couldn't handle confronting this issue. This is not easy.

If I could go back in time and wanted to save this marriage, I would have gone to couples counseling years ago. Last week I told my husband I was seeing a therapist. Then last night at therapy I shared with my T that I had told my husband that, and he said that often the partner in a failing marriage is very glad to hear that, as it means his partner has support and makes it easier for him to leave. That sounds a bit like what you wrote about your husband. Does your husband know you would like more intimacy in the marriage? Is this something you could work on in counseling together?

It took me many, many sessions before I could even discuss my marriage with my T, and then I could only do it a few minutes at a time. Now I can spend the whole session on it. Next week will bring huge changes for me. My T says hang onto your hat and have my lawyer's phone number handy. It's scary. But I feel an inevitability to it. I have followed my path and not rushed things and healed some as I have gone. Just take it at your pace, almedafan, and if you think the marriage can be saved, try to get your husband in counseling with you.

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The conclusion for me tonight is that I need to make myself happy. I never really thought I deserved that.

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Yes, absolutely you deserve to be happy!

It sounds like you have a lot to work on in therapy, almedafan, either alone or with your husband. I don't think your T would suggest graduation if he fully understood the situation. Have you talked to him about the marriage? I hope you will give your T the letter so he can understand everything that is happening with you.

Hang in there, sweetie.
(((((((hugs)))))))

sunny

[lauren_helene]

Hi Sunrise,

I forgot to mention that my husband did eventually do some couples counseling with me last November-January. It was difficult getting him there but he said he loved me so he'd go. He agreed to use my T since some of his issue was me seeing my T and my growing attachment. The good news is he changed his opinion on my T thank goodness. He understands the therapy process more now.

My husband is very shy, quiet and reserved. My T is the opposite but he does a great job mirroring the person he is talking to. My husband even cried during one of our couples sessions and he and my T seemed to be bonding over that.

However, it wasn't long before my husband started to complain about the extra copay on top of my individual sessions. Then he started talking to me about ending the couples therapy because he wasn't sure our problems are that bad and he knows what to do now in terms of intimacy and such. Note, nothing here has changed really.

Then one day, we went to my T for our session and my husband started to tell him that he didn't think it was beneficial to go any further. That he thinks we both are clear on what to do in our relationship and he wanted his opinion about stopping. And that was it he stopped going.

Now one time, my husband did see my T alone. He agreed that it would be good to try it. He even sounded excited when he left my T's office that night. He said he couldn't wait for the next session. Then slowly, it all changed. He never went back and he said he wasn't going to get anything out of it.

[lauren_helene]

Part 2!

I hit the wrong key and didn't get to finish my post. Anyway, the point is my husband doesn't want to do therapy with anyone. He says he gets nothing out of it. He's fine and doesn't need it. He's shy, quiet and reserved and that isn't going to change.

So, we've been in a holding pattern ever since. It's time for me to work on me.

What else can I do?

[SecretGarden]

"Anyway, I changed the topic yesterday to whether or not I know him because it was difficult to face what we were talking about. I love my husband but we aren't right together. This past year and a half I've learned through T how I picked not just my current husband but my former one too. I'm picking what I think are safe and stable men but it comes with a price because we are more friends than a true couple. There is no intimate love."

Maybe he is pointing out that you did not truly know your husbands or what you wanted and thus, like your husbands you do not truly know him.....in the deep down everyday kind of way. In my own way, valid or not, I feel that therapy is kind of a marriage...if only predominantly on one side (patient sharing) ...but both sides need to be dedicated.

Otherwise...I have appreciated not really knowing my doc as I do not then need to take care of him as much as I felt I needed to do with my previous T. But... I know he is a family man and that he wants me to have a loving relationship. He knows that this is important to me and so I think it is important for him in his life. He is meticulous in his housekeeping and in his person . Everything is in it's place. One time I walked in on a blustery day and put my coat on the floor. He told me to put it on the couch. He is smart. He is strict but well intended. He keeps two pens at all times in case one goes out. All methodical. He has nice clothes but not alot of them of a practical nature so likes quality, comfort but frugal. He has boundaries to protect his home life and professional life those are apparent. Those are ways that I feel I know my T... and more I am sure but without my knowing him...I know him. He keeps seeing me despite myself and is frustrated so he is dedicated and I think very ethical and determined. After time you get to know these things. He likes sex.. doggie style...lol... he perked up one time on that and that was not even what we were talking about..lol .

Too many words there but I just thought I would share.

I think and am sure you know that your husband is ambivalent and maybe sensitive to what difficult work therapy is, painful work and he would need to look at himself and his role in what is/is not going on.

Yes... Time to work on you and your own happiness. What do you want...even if you stay in the marriage.... What would you like to do to make your life better?

[SecretGarden]

Sunshine... Best to you in this difficult journey that you are traveling. Please continue to share here. What a flux of change and alot of work you are doing at this time of your life.

[MissCharlotte]

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Now, he likes that I have my therapist. Actually, it lets him off the hook.

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Almeda,
I feel the same about my husband. I wonder how prevalent this is? I bet it happens frequently. Anyway, i agree with the others, you so deserve to be happy for you. Go for it!

[SecretGarden]

Welll after my verbosity... Are these the kind of things you think of your pdoc or your way of making deductions...lol

[lauren_helene]

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SecretGarden said:
Maybe he is pointing out that you did not truly know your husbands or what you wanted and thus, like your husbands you do not truly know him.

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Good insight here Secret! We have discussed how 'quick' I jump into relationships and for the wrong reasons. It is usually the 'bad boy' types that get me <giggle>. So, the two times I married, I married 'safe'.

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SecretGarden said:
Otherwise...I have appreciated not really knowing my doc as I do not then need to take care of him as much as I felt I needed to do with my previous T.

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I want to take care of my T, and his assistant now! they are both sweet people and have certainly been good to me. This is one of my patterns, taking care of other people. It keeps my mind off of my problems and it makes others happy.

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SecretGarden said:
He has boundaries to protect his home life and professional life those are apparent.

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And I know deep down they need to protect us and themselves. I'm still going to secretly hope he and I can stay in touch later on, after I graduate. If that is something he's comfortable with and wants himself. He has done so much to help me and I truly like him. I want to pay him back in friendship. My dad always said if someone is good to you, you take care of them because there aren't many people in life a person can count on...

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SecretGarden said:
He likes sex.. doggie style...lol... he perked up one time on that and that was not even what we were talking about..lol

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I've seen my T perk up on a few comments I've made too. He's very comfortable talking about this topic and is never inappropriate about it so works for me!

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almeda24fan said:
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SecretGarden said:
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SecretGarden said:
He likes sex.. doggie style...lol... he perked up one time on that and that was not even what we were talking about..lol

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I've seen my T perk up on a few comments I've made too. He's very comfortable talking about this topic and is never inappropriate about it so works for me!

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Geez, I've seen my T perk up, but it's when we talk about literature. Where am I going wrong???

Almeda, I am seriously so proud of you for getting to what looks like the core of a lot of what's going on.... for being brave enough to admit this, and spending the time to better yourself. I love the fact that you wrote a letter to your T, and you want to read him parts of it. I am thinking of doing this as well. Sometimes I bring in my journal, but the whole idea of a letter seems more powerful-- because it's meant to be for him. I agree with what you said... it seems that you are a point at this moment, in which you have the opportunity to make the next session extremely profound. That's a beautiful and scary feeling-- when stuff is just spilling over and it's time to release. If it is time for you, go for it.

[lauren_helene]

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pinksoil said:
Almeda, I am seriously so proud of you for getting to what looks like the core of a lot of what's going on.... for being brave enough to admit this, and spending the time to better yourself. I love the fact that you wrote a letter to your T, and you want to read him parts of it. I am thinking of doing this as well. Sometimes I bring in my journal, but the whole idea of a letter seems more powerful-- because it's meant to be for him. I agree with what you said... it seems that you are a point at this moment, in which you have the opportunity to make the next session extremely profound. That's a beautiful and scary feeling-- when stuff is just spilling over and it's time to release. If it is time for you, go for it.

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Thank you so much Pinksoil. I'm nervous about reading some of the letter. I've mentioned that I had letters and sometimes bring in my journal and he never asks what any of it says. So, when I ask to read the letter, if I get a sense at all that he might be uncomfortable then I don't know...of course, maybe I'm projecting my nervousness on to him?

Oh and as far as the sex topic and what you can do...it only came up with me and my T because of my husband and our intimacy issues. We also did couples counseling with my T and discussed this topic at length. So I was able to get comfy early on.

This is one topic I can discuss 24/7 anyway. I'm sure it is another faulty coping mechanism or something...giggle