"Negative" as a Positive....Stress in Therapy...

I am not quite sure how to pose this question...

Therapy has been a confrontational lately and though I think it has affected my depression and anxiety a bit I can see the purpose of this. I am stubborn and he has taken me to task.

I really am looking forward to feeling better. lol... and I think/hope some new meds will assist...but know alot of this is in reaction to what is happening in that room (about what of course is the status of my world and changes needed.) At this juncture I seem focused on the relationship with my pdoc.... with all the other stuff whirling about.

I went through a phase of transference a year or so that worked out alot of anger at my dad. This current thing has tended to hurt me....and has lasted for longer than anything has in years.

Now... I was trying to read up on negative transference where my source said that sometimes anger expressed at the T can be an effective means of therapy. That would...I assume... be a positive ? transference if it is functional. I wonder sometime how one can tell when something is a negative transference and what someone might tell me of that.

What is seen to be a good means of therapy and change facilitation and what is dysfunctional?

and i'll add a question to follow that up..

can you know if its good or bad before hand. or do you have to wait to see how it all pans out?

(((Secret)))

This is out of my league but would also want to know whether negative transference can/does work both ways. Us to T or T to Us

Good question... I would like to know more....

Okay, I've been thinking and have some theories. Once, when i was talking to my T about something, or rather he was talking to me, he reminded me of my someone from my past who frightened me as a child. I freaked out but wasn't able to tell him about it for a couple of weeks. I think this was negative transference, maybe. As I was just reading ErinBear's post about her former T, that situation sounds like negative transference from T to patient/client.

Anyway, just a thought, or a couple of thoughts......

SecretGarden,

I found this on the site I like, www.guidetopsychology.com and wondered if it might resonate with you. I don't know, but here it is:

QUESTION:
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Suddenly I have this tense and anxious feeling and I just dont want to go to my psychotherapist. I have mentioned it to her. I’ve been with her for nearly 3 yrs (1 yr. privately), and had a very good relationship with her but of late I “tell myself” perhaps even convince myself that she is just doing a “job,” does not really care about me, and from my obessional feeling for therapy and therapist I’ve moved to the other extreme and don’t know why.

I know I’ve come a long way but still have a long way to go and can’t imagine why I’m feeling anxious, stressed about our meetings. Knowing myself and my self destructive moods I feel I am capable of kicking out at the whole world both bad and good (therapy being the good). I only manage to bring these feelings at the last 5 mins. of our session.

I’ve never held back any information in the past but I find extremely difficult to talk to my therapist that of late I feel very upset about her other patients and just don’t want to become one of her list of other patients. A month or so ago she added another chair in her consulting room and since then I have this feeling of a third person sitting in the room and many time I feel like addressing this 3rd person and not her.

Because of my split treatment with [my psychotherapist] & [my psychiatrist] (I am on lithium because of bi-polar disorder) I mentioned this to [my psychiatrist] which of course I know I should bring out with [my psychotherapist] and could not help feeling like the child running from one parent to the other.

I then told her that I the client felt so horrible and ungrateful because [my psychotherapist] has always been there for me, phone calls, meetings, etc., all of a sudden I’ve built up this defense wall with all sorts of negative feelings which are not even rational but are affecting me and the therapy and I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY.

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ANSWER:
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Your problem begins with the fact that you’re not running between two parents, you’re running between two mothers.

Now, this may not sound politically correct, but “always being there for you,” “phone calls,” and “meetings” are nurturing functions. This is the role of a mother who takes care of your needs. In contrast, a father “comes between” the child and the mother—to separate the child from total emotional absorbtion in the mother—and leads the child out into the world so as to teach the child how the world functions culturally and intellectually and how the child can function independently in the world.

Good psychotherapy, therefore, involves both mothering and fathering. And we’ve already seen what the mothering function is. So what is the fathering function of psychotherapy? Well, it’s the ability to recognize the “third person” in the consulting room. It’s the ability to recognize that all personal identity is the product of external, arbitrary, social constructs. It’s the ability to work therapeutically with the unconscious.

And you encounter the unconscious in psychotherapy when you are forced to admit, “I don’t understand.” Call it the moment of truth.

So what is the truth you are being called to encounter now? Well, after three years of “a very good relationship” with your psychotherapist, you now have to encounter the ugly, dark side of all relationships. You have to recognize that intense negative feelings, such as hurt and anger and resentment, exist in you right beside the good feelings. These negative feelings aren’t just unique to you, but they are in everyone; in fact, they’re a large part of human psychology. So you have to take responsibility for managing these feelings consciously, rather than letting them smoulder in the depths of the unconscious.

Of course you don’t like feeling horrible and ungrateful—after all, who does?—but that is exactly where the next phase of your treatment is going, if it is to go anywhere productive. In short, you have to experience the flip-side of “love.” You have to realize how much you “hate” your psychotherapist, even though it doesn’t seem rational. You hate her in just the same way you hated your mother yet couldn’t express it.

The best thing you can do, then, is to start speaking about all this in your psychotherapy, in the presence of that dreaded “third person.” Through the guidance of your psychotherapist, learn to express all that hurt and anger about unfulfilled needs from the past, when you were just another needy child on your mother’s list. Otherwise, you will spend the rest of your life running from the truth, and going nowhere.



ECHOES

Thank you Echoes... I appreciate this a lot.

My pdoc says that I have alligned with him on a conscious level but not on an unconscious level. I can see this but this is the battle right now. I am not sure how to get there... but I am sure we will give it a tuggle.

Maybe the unconscious is the third in there right now...

i'm not sure how confrontation is supposed to help your unconscious allign with him... confrontation tends to result in defensiveness and disconnection. is he intending to be confrontational or is it inadvertent?

i've heard the distinction between 'positive' and 'negative' transference enumerated in different ways.

one take is that positive transference is transference of positive qualities onto the therapist. benevolence, caring, concern and the like. so negative transference is transference of negative qualities onto the therapist. hostility, incompetence, judgemental etc.

i think the most common take is that positive transference is transference that helps therapy progress, however. transference of qualities like benevolence, caring, concern tend to help with building and maintaining a theraputic alliance. anger, erotic attraction etc could also be positive transference if the anger, erotic attraction etc is important progress.

on this account the corresponding notion of negative transference would be transference of qualities onto the therapist that inhibit or prohibit theraputic progress. anger and erotic attraction could be important progress (as above) but they could also be used as defences (against intimacy in an attempt to retain power and control of the theraputic situation). if they occurred in the latter context they would be negative transference. idealising can also be negative transference if it is used as a defence against anger etc.

sounds to me like there are many layers. one moments positive transference (progress) the next moments negative transference (defence).

He is frustrated with me and I think I triggered something in him...and it has led him to confront me... At this juncture it is intentional but I have told him that I do not want him in my face. I know what he is trying to do. I am trying to understand and hope to develop an alliance in this difficult journey. I am hurt as I am sensitive... yet obstinant.

Now to rebuild and work on alligning but I am not sure how. He will need to help me. This is also reminiscent of my relationship with my father... which he acknowledges. (That would be the negative...)

He acknowledges seeing glimmers of hope within me and has said this each of the last two visits. Sex is on the docket ...my desires ...though I have only voiced wanting a relationship like I envision he has with his wife. It is now off the docket...except that my alliance with him on an unconscious basis is to assist with this area as well as many that would be interrelated.

Yes many layers.... and it is confusing.

There is indeed fear..and frustration....

Will need to give this more thought over time. His intentions and frustrations are honorable but his methods need some fine tuning.. ...or maybe not. Sigh. So could be negative bad or negative functional.

> He is frustrated with me...

did he tell you this or are you surmising?

has he come out and said that he is intending to confront you, or are you surmising?

(that really is important. it is possible that he isn't intending to be confrontational and that your surmising that he is frustrated / intending to confront is transference rather than something that he is intending to do. of course it could be a bit of both... but it really is important whether he has explicitly told you he is intending to do this or whether you are surmising).

though either way... could you tell him that you feel like he is frustrated with you and attempting to confront you and that as a result you feel defensive and like you are withdrawing from him? that this is resulting in a breakdown of the theraputic alliance?

i guess that would be a way of getting some clarification...

> I know what he is trying to do.

what do you think he is trying to do?

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He is frustrated with me and I think I triggered something in him...and it has led him to confront me

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SG, this sounds like countertransference. Since it is "intentional" on his part, can you ask him what the "something" is that you triggered in him? Maybe that knowledge would help you with this. I can think of a couple of times my T has had countertransference, and it really helped for him to name it and acknowledge it--at least it helped me. He said once, "I am struggling here not to say something to you based on past situations in my own life, and so influence you to take the same path that I did. Because that may not be the best path for you. You have to decide. " He struggled to retain his neutrality, and I think did a pretty good job. It actually felt good to me to know he was having countertransference, as it made me feel like our therapy was "getting to him," that I wasn't the only one being affected.

Negative transference isn't really negative. I mean the emotions can be perceived as negative ones, but the term "negative" doesn't refer to this type of transference being bad or anything like that.

Seems like all I do in therapy lately is engage in negative transference. But it's all beneficial, you know? Learning to get angry. I need that. Just like you said.... working out anger for your dad through transference.

How are you handling the confrontation? I think confrontation is OK as long as the therapist is using it appropriately, i.e. it is beneficial and you are able to handle it. The purpose of confrontation in therapy is for the therapist to pick up discrepancies in your story that you are not aware of... and to either directly or indirectly call your attention to it so you can gain some insight on what's not matching up.

I can give you a personal example of negative transference. A couple sessions ago, I was talking about SI with my T. I was growing extremely angry with him and at one point said, "I don't want to **** talk about this with you anymore because you obviously don't **** care." DING, DING, NEGATIVE TRANSFERENCE HERE. lol.... What I was really saying was, "No one in my life has ever cared about my SI before, and I'm really mad about that." But I was transferring it onto him. And it was negative because it was extreme anger. But-- it was positive in functionality because I had never expressed the anger onto the people to whom it should have been directed.

Hope that helped.

> Negative transference isn't really negative. I mean the emotions can be perceived as negative ones, but the term "negative" doesn't refer to this type of transference being bad or anything like that.

well that depends on whether you go with theory number one or theory number two of negative transference. according to the first that is precisely what it means. according to the second, not so...

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alexandra_k said:

well that depends on whether you go with theory number one or theory number two of negative transference. according to the first that is precisely what it means. according to the second, not so...

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Yea, I'm going with #2. Basically I think that as long as transference is being worked through, even at a slow pace, it is functional, no matter what emotions or patterns you are transferring. I mean, so what if my transference is halting my ability to live? It's not halting therapy, so it must be good, right? haha

Secret, I was just about to post the guide to psychology link. I've been reading this webpage for hours tonight. There is so much good information about transference whether it is erotic, positive or negative.

Read the Q&A section first. I just learned so much tonight from this about myself.

I can speak for myself only but a few sessions ago I had some negative transference towards my T (the interrogation session) and it was eye opening for me what transpired next.

I let go on him, he responds not with negative transference but was very firm, ended up feeling guilty, then emailing, he didn't respond of course, this infuriated me and just confirmed that he in fact does not care about me. Then luckily before the next session and posting on here, I started to think of times when relationships went like this in my real life.

Instead of analyzing my T and me, I put real life people into it. It was then that I began to realize the pattern. When I talk to my T now about this sort of thing, I don't make it about him. I give examples instead of others in my life. I'm just as descriptive about the feelings but I'm not directing it at him.

Does that make sense? I'm sorry you're in pain. It is a rollercoaster ride!

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pinksoil said:
The purpose of confrontation in therapy is for the therapist to pick up discrepancies in your story that you are not aware of... and to either directly or indirectly call your attention to it so you can gain some insight on what's not matching up.

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What is "confrontation in therapy"? What does it look like? I'm wondering if my T has ever done it. Is it when the T makes a challenging interpretation that he knows the client won't like? Is it when the client says something and the T says "bulls**t!" Just trying to get a feel for what this means....

Yes he has told me several times lately that he is frustrated with me. I think I put that out there.

He has raised his voice to me....and I may hear it louder than it actually is. He tells me I am not getting it. I tell him that indeed I am getting it. He knows this is anxiety producing....and I tell him I need to be able to work. He has confronted me on an action that he would like me to take that has been delayed. He says I will NEVER do it. He know what I am thinking...and I know he does. I have asked him if he is daring me...

He is working to get me to do some things that will help me confront my fears. He wishes me to let people closer to me emotionally...for me to share me....and allow people in. This is major...and I am seeing it. I am afraid.... and anxious.

Well the elves have been busy as I slumbered. I will respond...

But he is perhaps calling my bluff on what I say I want. I emotionally want these things but.... do I? It is a matter of do I or how much do I want it. Can I do it?

Also... perhaps more all encompassing and more mind blowing...is
He keeps talking of my core and it not being changed and that if I do not deal with it that the other stuff I have cleared out will regrow if I do not deal with the core. I am tired.... but do not wish to regress any more.

I am back to work today after being off a week... I will answer more... but thank you all. Wish me luck today. No tears at work.... I hope.

I think if you're just being ornery or "stubborn" for stubborn's-sake, then it's negative transference whereas if you're working on an issue continuously and working something through (which you'd be able to feel the difference, like the ugly stuff about your dad last year) that's "good." Just remember, "resistance is futile" :-)

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sunrise said:
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pinksoil said:
The purpose of confrontation in therapy is for the therapist to pick up discrepancies in your story that you are not aware of... and to either directly or indirectly call your attention to it so you can gain some insight on what's not matching up.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
What is "confrontation in therapy"? What does it look like? I'm wondering if my T has ever done it. Is it when the T makes a challenging interpretation that he knows the client won't like? Is it when the client says something and the T says "bulls**t!" Just trying to get a feel for what this means....

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Hahahahaha, I'm sorry, I just keep picturing myself telling my T something, and T slamming something down on the table and yelling, "NO! THAT'S BULL****!!"

Here is an example of confrontation in therapy:

Suppose I am consistently telling my T over the course of a couple sessions, that all I want, is for people to leave me alone. I tell him that I don't even want to see anyone; I just want to be in isolation. However, here and there within my story, I mention how much I hate when my husband goes places without me. The confrontation comes when T points out the descrepancy in my story. It may go something like: You say that you desire isolation, yet I am hearing that you can't bear when your husband goes somewhere without you.

So basically it's when the T points out a discrepancy in the story.

It can be done many ways, even with body language.

(You say that you have a great relationship with your mother; yet I notice that every time you talk about her, you hit your fist into your hand).

My T does this kind of stuff all the time. It's very helpful. As a T, you can sense when the client is ready to handle confrontation. It's not something that should be done in the early stages, as it may anger or confuse the client.

O.K. I want to handle it.... I do. But how about a gentle confrontation instead of a between the eyes kind of thing? Am I deaf?

I want to handle it and want to move forward despite myself.... That is why I keep going back. It is not easy though.

And Pink.... sad to admit.... I am NOT anywhere near being a new client. Quite the contrary. I have just had more crap to wade through perhaps or I am a slow learner.... ugh.

Secret, that's OK! I was just pointing out to Sunny, about the basics of confrontation. Another thing about confrontation is that even if you are not a new client-- even if you have been with the therapist for a long time-- the therapist needs to wait until the client is ready. If you feel as though your therapist is confronting you in a way that is making you feel uncomfortable, let him know. Sometimes therapists will do it in a certain way to provoke anger. I know mine does. Because at the same time that he is pointing out a discrepancy, he is also working on having me get angry at him in session. McWilliams would call this autonomous, lol. So..... perhaps your T thinks you are more than ready for this? Ready for confrontation. Ready to be autonomous.

I have given him reason to think so---yes.

My worry is that it is o.k. for him to confront in a not so nice way but I am not sure it is my right to be angry...though...I know he is right. Not sure if I have plucked his last nerve but think that I have gotten to the point that I am ready and it is poop or get off it. I do need a nudge or a shove ...lol....

And yes ... I hope... ready.

Can hardly wait til Wednesday ... really.

I want him to know I am ready... even if I seem weak... he knows I am strong...though sometimes I do not know that.

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sunrise said:
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He is frustrated with me and I think I triggered something in him...and it has led him to confront me

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
SG, this sounds like countertransference. Since it is "intentional" on his part, can you ask him what the "something" is that you triggered in him? Maybe that knowledge would help you with this. I can think of a couple of times my T has had countertransference, and it really helped for him to name it and acknowledge it--at least it helped me. He said once, "I am struggling here not to say something to you based on past situations in my own life, and so influence you to take the same path that I did. Because that may not be the best path for you. You have to decide. " He struggled to retain his neutrality, and I think did a pretty good job. It actually felt good to me to know he was having countertransference, as it made me feel like our therapy was "getting to him," that I wasn't the only one being affected.

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Sunrise I am pleased that you have had this experience. I do not see my pdoc admitting this really...but I could be wrong. I have not heard it in years of therapy. Anything else I might say to you at this juncture would be an assumption...and you know what they say when you assume... :-) Good for you though.

Oh...I know how to get angry..lol... I just need to be more appropriate with my anger... Also I use anger to distance myself--so working on figuring all of THAT out.

Point well taken: The purpose of confrontation in therapy is for the therapist to pick up discrepancies in your story that you are not aware of... and to either directly or indirectly call your attention to it so you can gain some insight on what's not matching up.

Gee with all of this stuff whirling around... like your anger with your T... don't you ever just feel like a nut? I do...lol It is sorted out in time though.

I do agree with Alexandra that not all negative transference is positive... It needs to be functional... and sometimes I think it is a gamble.

Oops I am being redundant. I will back off a bit as I answered some short answers at work.... You responded to this.