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  #26  
Old Jul 13, 2007, 01:06 AM
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okiedokie okiedokie is offline
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Hi Pink,
I'm glad to hear that. Then, I'm very happy for you and your new interactions with T.

Also, I appreciate the gentle way in which you told me I was off base. You are a dear!!

All the best,
Okie
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  #27  
Old Jul 13, 2007, 02:03 PM
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lauren_helene lauren_helene is offline
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
okiedokie said:

Also, I appreciate the gentle way in which you told me I was off base. You are a dear!!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thank you Okie, for posting that Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed. This is something I needed to be reminded of regarding how I communicate.
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  #28  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 09:53 AM
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happyflowergirl happyflowergirl is offline
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I am happy about your relationship with your T. I am also a student T, and your post does worry me a bit. I don't want to upset you because I dont' post often .

The fact he memoried your poem, means he is reading them a lot and focusing on them. With erotic transference, it can be a ego booster for a T.

With him disclosing his feelings, at this point, worries me.

Using the word special

Saying this may be only the beginning (beginning of what)

The fact that you are a student can sometimes actually make the T think he can have a different relationship with you, because you know and understand the boundry issues. You would think it would scare them more because you know the rules and can turn them in , but sometimes it has the opposite effect.

Just be careful is all I want to say. It isn't uncommon for T's to have sexual relationships with their clients. They can devolop feelings for their clients. Maybe is is totally innocent and flirting, but just be aware of it might mean more to him.
You are a sweet girl and I just don't want to see you become hurt .
  #29  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 11:16 AM
pinksoil
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Hmmm...

Do some not understand that a deep emotional connection can exist between patient and therapist? That it is a significant part in the process for a therapist to feel connected to the patient? A deep emotional connection in which that is all that exists...

I guess it also has to do with typing this stuff on the computer. Some may fail to realize that they weren't actually in the session with me... For example, the word "special." Since when did the word "special" become a red flag for a sexual relationship? Regardless, perhaps things on the computer get misconstrued because the readers obviously didn't directly hear, feel, or understand the way the word was used.

As far as the poems, I highly doubt he sat at home with flashcards memorizing them line by line. A good therapist stores tons of significant information in his/her memory. To do something like that in therapy as he did is a way to connect is a way that is not generic. And that's what touched me the most about him doing such a thing.

Yes, he said this may be the beginning... Again, others are unaware of our working relationship, but why would that signify something inappropriate? The therapeutic relationship is a process that goes through many, many levels. Many beginnings. That session marked another level. No, it doesn't mean we are going to lay down on the old Freudian couch and %#@&amp;#!. Like I said, it's a level in the working relationship.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
With him disclosing his feelings, at this point, worries me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

At this point? We've worked together for two years and this was the 1st time.

Self-disclosure of feelings in the here-and-now is an important part of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. When the therapists reaches the point in which he/she feels comfortable to do so, therapy has, in fact, reached a "beginning."

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
You would think it would scare them more because you know the rules and can turn them in , but sometimes it has the opposite effect.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

No one should be scared. He should adhere to the legal and ethical guidelines of boundaries. He should respect me for my well-being. I should do the same towards him. But he shouldn't have to be scared into putting up thicker walls just because I'm a student.

I apologize if this post appears rude. I'm not trying to be. It's just that I post on PC to share and enrich my experience in therapy. I am very open and honest in my post, and I can be quite candid. I am the same way in thearpy. Luckily I have a therapist who can match that, has good judgment, and is not opposed to taking a chance or two. It is very similar to when I'm doing group therapy in the inpatient hospital. There are times in which a patient reaches a significant point where there is just so much pain emitting, that it makes me hurt so very much right along with them. I often get the urge to put a hand on that patient's arm or shoulder. I will ask the patient if this is okay. If so, I will do it. This is a risk. A chance. But with good judgment and little risk taking, I am giving the patient something that might be so needed at that time. Before I started giving therapy, I never thought I would be the type of therapist who would endorse even the smallest amount of physical contact. However, in the moment, I realized that it just felt like the right thing to do. I doubt I would ever do such a thing in individual, but in group the dynamics are very different. Especially in a hospital. But anyway, hopefully you can see my point. So I just felt the need to speak up for myself. I realize that people may continue to pick up things in my posts. In fact, I have a new post (my session and why do I need him so much?), which I posted last night. Whatever people want to take out of that is fine, but please trust my judgment and my relationship with my T.
  #30  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 11:20 AM
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lauren_helene lauren_helene is offline
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Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.

Very well said Pink Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
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  #31  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 12:21 PM
Caramee Caramee is offline
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Pinksoil: Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
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  #32  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 12:41 PM
sidony sidony is offline
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Great post pinksoil!!!

I too believe that a very intense emotional connection can exist without the danger of its crossing ethical /legal boundaries. And nothing I've read in your descriptions has led me to think your relationship is at risk in that way! Disclosing emotions and feelings is scary and intense. I trust that you and your therapist both have the good judgment and ability to maintain the appropriate limits, and I thank you for sharing your experiences here!!! They're fascinating and lead me to ponder what sharing I'm able to do in my own therapy sessions (I fear there are a lot of intense feelings that I haven't been able to communicate yet). Everything you've written leads me to believe you have a fantastic therapist. I think my own is great too. Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed. (<- Just had to throw that last line in since I'm thinking about how much he is helping me.)

Take care,
Sidony
  #33  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 01:35 PM
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happyflowergirl happyflowergirl is offline
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I am sorry I upset you, I just saw red flags , maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

-----Self-disclosure of feelings in the here-and-now is an important part of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. When the therapists reaches the point in which he/she feels comfortable to do so, therapy has, in fact, reached a "beginning." ------

I think when it is the CLIENT who does this, is the beginning of good work. Therapy is suppose to be about what the client is feeling, the client does the work, what the T comfort level is shouldn't matter all that much, because therapy should be focused on the client's feelings, not the T's.

And a T dealing with erotic transference from his client, needs to be extra careful in dealing with them, especially if it has been confirmed. T's can take advantage of that, they are human, and it has happened before, not saying that it will happen to you. I have seen this happen to someone before, and some of the loosening of boundries, like the ones you have talked about was the precurser of the "slippery slope".
  #34  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 01:57 PM
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pink this sounds like another terrific session. I always like to read your posts and I think you have such courage in session!

Regarding the later posts: I think someone who 1) isn't familiar with you and your posts and 2) possibly has their own personal issues/fears could make an inaccurate assumption or draw an inaccurate conclusion to what you said here.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Then he went on to say that it's okay to have those feelings, and it's ok to express them, no matter what they are.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Oh, I love his reassurance! I wouldn't be able to go there either, but I love his reassuring you.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
And then it happened.

He quoted a line from one of my poems by memory.

It was a line in which I wrote, "You are required to shut up and tell me the reason."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, he really does get you. He knew what that was about when he read your poem and was able to bring it out and show you that he got it. What a great way to show you that he is connected and that he gets you.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
He tells me, "Ok. The whole time before you got angry, I think there was a really strong connection. Then when you got mad at me, I felt hurt because we lost that."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

... is he really Yalom in disguise?!

Have you congratulated yourself yet for giving T those poems? Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
  #35  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 04:02 PM
sidony sidony is offline
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Self-disclosure of feelings in the here-and-now is an important part of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. When the therapists reaches the point in which he/she feels comfortable to do so, therapy has, in fact, reached a "beginning."

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I think when it is the CLIENT who does this, is the beginning of good work.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Remember that Pinksoil has clearly already disclosed a lot of her own feelings (still amazed that you let him read your poetry, Pink!). So it's the reciprocation that's a new beginning in her work. Different phases of therapy...

I love it when my therapist discloses something toward me. I cherish it because I feel the connection is more real.

Sidony
  #36  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 04:44 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
happyflowergirl said:
With him disclosing his feelings, at this point, worries me.... You would think it would scare them more because you know the rules...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
happyflowergirl, I am surprised since you are studying to be a T that you do not know that therapist self-disclosure is a therapeutic technique frequently used in psychotherapy. There is no "rule" against it. In fact, it is very common in some forms of psychotherapy and can be very powerful. For example, my T is eclectic with a strong humanist component. Self-disclosure is common among humanistic psychologists and used by those with other therapeutic approaches as well. Perhaps you will cover this information later in your studies.

pink, I understood the intention of your original post very well. You are an excellent written communicator. I was thrilled for you that you had reached the point in therapy where your therapist was able to self disclose. (((hugs)))
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  #37  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 05:30 PM
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happyflowergirl happyflowergirl is offline
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Self disclosure can be theraputic, but it also can blur the boundries of the relationship and is one of the major warning signs that in most cases of sexual involvelment, this is how it starts. I am not saying he is going to do this, only loosening the boundries after you know a client has erotic feelings for the therapist, seems like a potential "slippery slope" and can cause some problems down the line.
She had admitted erotic transference, and in her posts I hear more about what the T is doing, how excited when he does this and that. I do understand that , deep connections are wonderful, but part of that is erotic transference working too. She is doing nothing wrong, and so far the T hasn't either. I just think it would be a good thing to be aware that these things do happen and as a patient, it is good to be informed.

Deep connections are good, they are very healing, and I am glad she is feeling that, but since there are some erotic feelings torwards the therapist, he needs to be very careful with that connection, it holds a lot of power. It can cause a lot of pain too, if it is taken advantage of or if the client is making more of the connection than there is. He may never do this, but it has happend a lot in therapy, so it is wise to be aware that it can happen and being informed is a good thing because not every T is ethical.
Kind of like teaching your kids about good touch , bad touch, or what to do with strangers, it doesn't mean it is going to happen, but it is good to be informed about it, so they know what to do if it happens.
.
I really do have only the best intentions, I am not trying to upset anyone. But it is just my view, there are a lot of views, mine is not nessary right or wrong, just a different point of view. If that isn't welcomed on this site, please let me know, and I am sorry if this has hurt you. If you were my daughter I would have told you the same thing.
  #38  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 05:55 PM
Caramee Caramee is offline
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No matter how well-intended you are, a site like this (and others) in which people disclose the most intimate details of their therapeutic encounters where they may not be able to IRL and be understood should be met IMHO with as much support as possible. Babbling about theory and hypotheticals in response to someone's intimate details needing support and understanding . . . well, it's just not my cup of tea.

Maybe there are other sites and forums that are better suited for the kind of theory and debate you seem to want to engage in, but I would hope posters would not using Pinksoil's intimate post to pick apart and analyze for that purpose.
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  #39  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 06:39 PM
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as a "past" T, i hardly think that a person here, at PC, could know exactly what is in Pink's heart and her T's therapeutic approach.......that said, i self-disclosed frequently with my patients.......xoxoxo pat
  #40  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 06:46 PM
sidony sidony is offline
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kind of like teaching your kids about good touch , bad touch, or what to do with strangers, it doesn't mean it is going to happen, but it is good to be informed about it, so they know what to do if it happens.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

But remember: Pinksoil is not a child. She's an adult and well-versed in the field of psychology with a lot of knowledge about transference, therapy, ethics, etc. She's more than capable of making good judgments about therapists and therapeutic techniques. So we should all trust her judgment when it comes to her own therapy! Her post was not questioning his behavior or intents but was describing how she felt and what was going on with her. I consider it a privilege to be able to share in that and to try to support her.

If you're concerned about possible impropriety in therapeutic relationships, why not start a thread on this topic? Talk about what you see as dangerous, etc. I think you'd get a lot of responses, and it wouldn't hijack this thread which is about Pinksoil's feelings about therapy and her personal growth.

Sidony
  #41  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 06:49 PM
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Well I guess I shouldn't have posted anything, I am sorry. I never said anyone was doing anything wrong. Don't worry I will just shut up about it. I am sorry I wasted my time and gave a darn. I no longer exhist...
  #42  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 07:14 PM
pinksoil
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
ECHOES said:
... is he really Yalom in disguise?!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hellloooooo weird psychic connection!!! ECHOES, I was JUST thinking that a little while ago!!!
  #43  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 08:18 PM
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MissCharlotte MissCharlotte is offline
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Well,

Weighing in on the discourse here....

My T discloses and that's what makes it a two-way street, it makes the relationship real. He has told me personal vignettes from his life that he thinks will match a feeling I'm trying to express. It's not all the time and its not everything, but I appreciate it when he does because it means he is really trying to meet me where I am. It makes the experience so personal. I don't know if I would last too long with a T who didn't disclose at all.

And, in the for what it's worth category, T has encouraged me to express my longings and desires and has reminded me that he has strong boundaries so I can feel safe.

I do not believe that there would be any crossing of professional boundaries in our relationship ever.

Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed. Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
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Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
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  #44  
Old Jul 14, 2007, 10:44 PM
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lauren_helene lauren_helene is offline
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Pink I thought of you earlier today. I must share what happened!

I took my son out today to an event and it is located in the same area as my T's office. I love that area and used to work there not long ago.

I found myself thinking about T and wishing we could meet and have a latte or something (yes I know, we can't) and then...

A song came on the radio that in my head is "our song"...no I've never told him either and I'm not going to Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.

I'm sure you know the song "Bright Sunshiny Day". Well a few weeks ago I was having a bad moment and I could feel myself spiraling (I was driving home from work), this song comes on the radio at that moment and immediately in my head I pictured he and I walking along the Shore talking and laughing. It felt real and good (you'll know what I mean by the Shore).

By the end of the song, I was able to catch my breath back and stop crying.

Today when it happened I thought 'what does he have ESP or something?" and started laughing! I am in a pretty good mood today and that made my day so much better.

The point I am trying to make is that some of have intense thoughts about our T's and we need that strong emotional connection to trust and to try and heal.

It isn't necessary for every client to heal but it is for us and others like us.

I hope you keep posting your thoughts because they are intense and thought provoking. I learn a lot from you my dear Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
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  #45  
Old Jul 15, 2007, 10:38 AM
pinksoil
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
almeda24fan said:
I pictured he and I walking along the Shore talking and laughing. It felt real and good (you'll know what I mean by the Shore).

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Goin' down the shore! Philly-speak, LOL.

That's awesome that you're finding little ways within yourself to stay connected.

I learn a lot from you too
  #46  
Old Jul 15, 2007, 11:13 AM
april15 april15 is offline
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
He tells me, "Ok. The whole time before you got angry, I think there was a really strong connection. Then when you got mad at me, I felt hurt because we lost that."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I see red flags too. This doesn't seem right to me expecially since he knows about the erotic transference. I think connection is very important, but he is telling you he feels "hurt" because "we" lost that?

Even from a non erotic standpoint, a therapist is generally concerned not to dump their own feelings onto the client so that it doesn't interfere with the therapy. A client hearing this might fear hurting the therapist in the future if not "connecting". Or a client might feel worried about expressing anger. The client should never feel she has to take care of the therapist's feelings.

I do think it's important for a therapist to self disclose, both information about themselves as well as their feelings. But it must be done in an appropriate way, and only in the client's best interests. It really should not matter that your therapist is hurt over the loss of connection in the moment.
  #47  
Old Jul 15, 2007, 11:22 AM
pinksoil
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Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
  #48  
Old Jul 15, 2007, 11:27 AM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Or a client might feel worried about expressing anger.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed. Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed. Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.

sorry.

Well, please read all of pinksoils's posts to get a history. It will clarify much and should relieve your concerns.

There is a wide range of thought about disclosure by the T: when, how much, etc. An analyst who choses to disclose does not do so lightly; he/she analyzes the disclosure and it becomes part of the therapy itself.

No longer is the T required to be the Fruedian "blank slate" of days past.

Perhaps it is different in other types of therapy besides analysis.

Here is an interesting site to read more about transference and countertransference inluding erotic trransference: www.guidetopsychology.com

And several interesting books about therapy: The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom MD(THE best) and Between Client and Therapist by Michael Kahn PhD.

Dumbfounded.  Astounded. Overwhelmed.
  #49  
Old Jul 15, 2007, 11:43 AM
sidony sidony is offline
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
april15 said:A client hearing this might fear hurting the therapist in the future if not "connecting". Or a client might feel worried about expressing anger.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

My therapist discloses too. Yes, sometimes I worry about hurting my therapist's feelings. Sometimes I worry about expressing anger to him. I've told him that, and he and I talk about it and why I feel concerned about taking care of other people's feelings. It's a therapeutic technique that he uses to help me learn to have my own voice and to become closer to people. It's a common measure in therapy.

I'm always grateful when my therapist speaks in terms of "we." It helps me feel the connection better, and he's more able to help me.

There are different styles of therapy and some may not be beneficial to everyone. This does not make them dangerous. If you are uncomfortable with a therapist who discloses, then seek one who does not.

Sidony
  #50  
Old Jul 15, 2007, 11:50 AM
pinksoil
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I was going to shut up, but who are we kidding? I'll just add this:

If you read the whole thing, you will see that after my therapist said he felt hurt, I felt horrible. I immediately jumped to: Why do I hurt everyone? I just blew the whole connection.

Key phrase: Why do I hurt everyone?

Everyone.

Not just my therapist.

Ahh, the beauty of the-and-now of analysis. Yes the therapist-client connection is real, but it is also charged with the transference of everyday relational patterns. They play out in the session and then you get work work on them!

Whee! It's fun! Try it!
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