pinksoil asked me for some references for the stuff that i've been reading on erotic attachment (i hope she doesn't mind my saying so!) i thought i'd post a little about it here so that other people can join in the conversation too. basically... i spent a couple half days with google scholar searching for terms like "erotic transference" and "erotic attachment" and "male therapist" "female patient" "attachment to therapist" etc etc etc. got a LOT of hits (i'm not the most efficient searcher of information). not sure i could find some of those hits again even if i tried...

there was some stuff that was very meaningful to me, though. i'll try and relate it and then i'll try and find a link or two...

one article really stood out for me. i can't remember the theoretical orientation (something psychoanalytic, though). apparently freud thought that erotic attachment was detrimental. he thought that it was based in agression (desire to possess / dominate). that seduction of therapist was a defence etc etc etc.

important distinction:
erotic transference: feelings of love. thinking about a lot. sexual fantasies. idealisation. etc
erotisized transference: being all obsessive about it. making overt sexualized gestures / remarks. demanding sex. refusing to talk about anything else etc.

there was one article... and it was about how (after freud, i guess) whether a client experienced erotic attachment or not was taken to be diagnostic of whether they were a suitable candidate for psychoanalysis or not. if you didn't experience erotic attachment then you weren't suitable, basically. of course it isn't supposed to matter what gender your therapist is (in the sense that one can experience erotic attachment to ones therapist even though the therapist isn't the gender that you are typically sexually attracted to).

the oedipal phase... the notion is that around 2 kids are kinda narcissistic. experience themselves as being the centre of their parents world etc etc etc. have a special relationship with each parent. but then there is a growing awareness that the parents share a special kind of relationship (a closeness) that excludes the infant. so... jealousy... oedipal issues etc etc etc.

one of the articles talks about how... getting through the oedipal phase relatively unscathed involves coming to terms with the fact that the parents do have a special relationship and a special closeness that excludes the infant. BUT: that what enables that is that the infant starts to see that they share a special closeness each parent that excludes the other parent. what is the difference between the grown up relationship and the grown up - child relationship? sexual feelings are NOT acted on in the grown up - child relationship. the grown up is loved in an idealised (hence narcissistic) fashion... the infant meets the grown ups narcissistic needs in a way that the grown up relationship does not. the grown up relationship is reciprocal and sexual etc. more mirroring transference than idealising.

so... the infant learns that there is love without sexual contact etc. and idealises and loves and realises that that is kind of bounded (in that the grownups have their relationship too) but that that doesn't preclude them being special and their getting their needs met.

lots of times things go wrong around there, though. maybe... the grown up is terrified / dissociative about having erotic and / or sexual feelings for the child. as such... the child can feel ineffectual and unloved and incompetent etc. maybe the grown up is overly sexual with the child. as such... the child can be terrified / dissociative about the idealisation being unwarranted.

i guess i've been thinking a lot about how aspects of eroticism are supposed to be present in grown up - infant relationships. that it is normal. that it is supposed to give vitality and confidence and good feelings. that... my father was scared of me and rejecting of me. that... i'm fairly prone to depression and a lot embarrassed about erotic feelings. i guess this is something that is hard to talk about - especially in this day and age with all the focus on childhood sexual abuse etc. for a grown up to have an erotic kind of attachment with a child that is NOT abusive... the fear that others WILL consider it abusive. the boundary between abusive and non-abusive... i don't know... interesting though at any rate...

of course this is fairly culturally biased (two parents who love each other etc etc etc). but fairly interesting to think about at any rate.

makes some sense of why my stepmother hates me... insecurity... hmm

[sunrise]

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alexandra_k said:
important distinction:
erotic transference: feelings of love. thinking about a lot. sexual fantasies. idealisation. etc
erotisized transference: being all obsessive about it. making overt sexualized gestures / remarks. demanding sex. refusing to talk about anything else etc.

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Thanks for those nutshell definitions, alex_k. When people here have talked about erotic transference, I always felt that I didn't have it. I thought it meant you wanted to have a romantic and/or sexual relationship with your therapist. And I've never wanted that. But by the above definition, maybe I do have erotic transference, because I do have feelings of love, am very strongly attached, and think the world of my T (idealization?). But I've always felt my love was very pure, more spiritual than physical, if that makes sense. Plus, some people here have written about how jealous they are of their T's wife or loved ones, that they can't stand to think of their T with his wife, etc. And I've never thought like that at all. I am very happy my T has found someone special he loves after his divorce. It gives me hope that maybe I might find someone too once I am single again. Along similar lines, there are people who seem to be jealous of their T's other clients. I have never been that way. I am very curious about my T's other clients and enjoy talking to them in the waiting room when we intersect (as we do sometimes when he double books!). I feel a kinship with them because we share the same T. I had a dream about a party my T threw for all of his clients and how I loved being included in that and that I felt part of my T's "communty of clients." I just don't have a possessiveness that some people feel toward their T, and that seemed part of an erotic transference to me, so again, I didn't seem to have it. So I'm still left wondering if I have erotic transference or not. I guess it really doesn't matter, what matters is our strong bond and the trust between us and how I use it for personal change and growth.

hey... i think a crush is a kind of an erotic transference. i guess an erotic transference doesn't have to be sexualised in much the same way as a crush doesn't have to be sexualised. i mean... i don't think that little kids typically have sexual feelings for their parents. more sensory pleasure in smiles and non-sexual touch etc. cats are quite erotic creatures - but not in a sexual sense.

i'm not jealous of my therapists other clients or his wife, either. well... i guess i was sad about his having time off to spend with her and his kid... but i think that was more about his not being there to meet my needs at the end of the day :-( i have sexual fantasies about him sometimes... curious, kind of. wonder what it would be like. don't experience a longing for it, though... appreciate that it is not something that i would actually want... part of what is amazing about the feelings is that... them becoming reality simply isn't on the cards. yeah, i want to be special to him like how he is special to me but sex would be different... it would be about him... or it would be mutual in a way that i don't want our relationship to be, really. i need to idealise him / look up to him a little. i need him to be abstinent. i need him to be focused on me rather than telling me about his crappy week etc etc etc. but... i'd like him to enjoy my presence the way i enjoy his, yeah. not that i'll ever tell him how much i like him, of course, lol.

[WinterRose]

I used to think that erotic transference was just sexual, but then I read that it is about loving the other person and wanting more and more of that other person. (I suppose that could become sexual, but it doesn't have to.) So I guess that counts for me with pdoc. I'm not in love with him, but I do love him and I do get caught up in wanting more of his time and wanting to know more about him, etc. etc.

I find this site very helpful. www.guidetopsychology.com
Not sure which orientation it is and I'm sure it's just the basics and not as deep or theoretical as you can get.
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For as you begin to encounter genuine concern for your well-being, the whole experience can feel overwhelming and intoxicating. Once having felt ignored and misunderstood, and now feeling noticed and understood—and not rejected—you can start to feel special. Moreover, you can begin to believe that the psychotherapist is special as well.

When this happens, everything can take on a feeling of erotic “love.”

You see quote marks around the word love in the last sentence because erotic feelings are really feelings of desire, not love. I want to know more about the psychotherapist’s personal life. I want to know what he or she likes. I want to be with him or her outside the psychotherapy sessions. I want to believe that he or she feels an attraction to me. And so on. That’s desire. It’s desire because it is based in what “I want,” not in what you or someone else needs.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">http://www.guidetopsychology.com/ero...ansference.htm

Although, I myself get quite conflicted at times because I want more of my pdoc's time, but then I want him to be happy and safe too. I've worried that he'll overwork and lose his family, etc. So I'm conflicted - my desires fight against each other.

I want a lot of what alexandra wants - I want to be special to him and I want him to enjoy being with me. I do get jealous if I think he's enjoying another patient's company more than mine. Never been jealous of his wife (I think I'd destroy him if I married him - it wouldn't work for either of us), but once or twice I was jealous of his daughter. I like the way things are now - only I want more of his time - want to see him more often. I guess in my narcisitic way, I'm enjoying being the center of attention. I wonder if I'd like it as much if it was two way.

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sunrise said:
Plus, some people here have written about how jealous they are of their T's wife or loved ones, that they can't stand to think of their T with his wife, etc.

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Hi.

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Along similar lines, there are people who seem to be jealous of their T's other clients.

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Hello again.



My T has other clients?

Yeah, I've told him that I hate his wedding ring. I told him that there is a "mess of transference." I told him that I once imagined a scenario in which he terminates a couple of other patients so that I could have more frequent sessions. I flat-out told him that I idealized him. (Wow, I just found out that if you list all of the embarassing things you have told your T, in a row, it makes you feel really, really stupid. C'mon! Try it!)

So yeah, I harbor a lot of erotic transference towards him. I knew that. He knows that. Do we talk about it? Of course not.

I don't know why I have to hate every single person that he associates with outside of me. I don't know. The transference is so intense that I feel strangely drawn towards men I see that look like him. Not that I do anything... I'm just saying, it's a feeling.

I used to see him as a total object. This has lessened a bit since he began to disclose feelings, tell me stories, etc. It makes him more human.... which helps the erotic transference stuff a little-- but not a whole lot. I would imagine the briliant idea of talking about it might help but as of right now that's just out of the question.

Thanks for posting, Alex.

[MissCharlotte]

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I used to see him as a total object. This has lessened a bit since he began to disclose feelings, tell me stories, etc. It makes him more human.... which helps the erotic transference stuff a little-- but not a whole lot. I would imagine the briliant idea of talking about it might help but as of right now that's just out of the question.

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(((Pinksoil)))

I remember a long time ago, a friend said that a therapist she knew was writing a book called "When you can you Will". So, another friend and I totally made fun of the concept. We thought it was vague and ridiculous and well, just nothing. (Like the Seinfeld episde about nothing?)

Anyway, now I get it. Now, the mature me gets it totally. And when you can talk about the transference you will. No need to feel bad about it, and in fact, you are quite brave to have let T know, through your poetry, that it exists.

Tomorrow you can call.

[Cheri]

I developed a crush on a male therapist I had been seeing for about 4 years who thought erotic transference interfered with therapy. He refused to even discuss my feelings and went so far as to prop a big picture of his wife on his desk during my sessions (I suspect it went back in the drawer when I left) and even took down a Georgia O'Keefe print that was hanging in his office (lol.).

His reaction was terribly hurtful to me, and I spent the last 6 months of therapy crying over it. He was not the least sympathetic. I finally stopped therapy because I couldn't deal with the feelings of rejection that so mirrored earlier relationships.

What I found really confusing was that he was pretty flirtatious up to the point where I started feeling this erotic transference, then withdrew completely. I don't think this was my imagination, and there was nothing overtyly sexual in the content, but it still seemed like being lead on and then rejected.

Now I have a female therapist who is primarily into CBT and doesn't really want to discuss past relationships. Is this something I need therapy to get over (it's been 6 years already), or should I just let it go? Maybe his therapeutic orientation or training or personal shortcomings interfered? Maybe it wasn't just my fault?

I know one thing. I envy those of you who have a loving relationship with your therapists, and whose affection is reciprocated. I don't think I'll ever be able to take that kind of risk again.

[lauren_helene]

Wow thanks Alexandra for posting that great information. I fit the bill too somewhat. I get jealous of his other patients.

I remember this one session that someone had written a phrase on his white board, something about creating drama. I asked him about it and he said 'oh, she's a funny girl'...I wanted to punch him. I'm sure it was written all over my face, I changed the subject.

I don't know if he's dating or not. I don't see a wedding ring but that doesn't mean anything. I would want him to be happy in that area. Just want him to tell me I'm his favorite! That's all I need

Jealousy... Hmm...

I might have been a little jealous of his kid... Not sure is 'jealous' is the word... I think I was a little anxious. Anxious that he was being / would be so preoccupied with his kid that he would forget all about me :-(

I don't think I'm jealous of his other clients... That probably has a lot to do with the fact that his other clients (that I've seen) are much older. Elderly, really. I guess he sees people in the community... But I think he prescribes them medications rather than offering them therapy. Or... I like to think so at any rate ;-)

I think... That part of my not feeling jealous might be about... The fact that he could have referred me on to community mental health services but that instead he offered to see me in his private practice for a minimal fee. So... I guess I do feel a bit special. I don't expect he does that for everyone :-) I also suppose... That I feel a bit special because I could see that he DID look kind of interested / excited that I might be DID and he said he had had a couple of other clients with that in the past... And so I figure I'm his only case like that at the moment. And it is something that he is interested in so I feel a little bit special there too... And... He said he would see me at 8am (which is outside normal working hours). And... He is seeing me more frequently than his other clients (who are mostly seeing him for medication). And... He seemed interested that I was a PhD student in philosophy too (and he said 'oh, xxx is a great place to do philosophy because of yyy' and yyy is one of my supervisors). In fact... I worried a lot initially that this might be unhealthy... He has been reassuring me by going on about how he does this for other people etc etc etc - but I know that he doesn't really... He is very careful with boundaries though (I think) and so I really do think that it is okay.

So... I guess jealousy isn't really an issue... Though... I guess I do know that he doesn't think about me as much as I think about him :-( And he did seem to get all excited about his wife having a baby (as he should have) and stuff... And I felt a little bit neglected... But basically... I think that is going alright, yeah.

But that being said... I still feel embarrassed about this erotic attachment stuff. Couldn't tell him! Well... Not in person anyway...

:-(

[sunrise]

Well, now after reading all this, especially what WinterRose wrote, I am thinking maybe I did have a phase of erotic transference. In fact, I think it was when I first came to PsychCentral in January of this year. I was feeling really intensely toward my T (I'd been seeing him about 3 months), thought about him all the time, etc. I didn't have romantic fantasies about him, but he occupied a lot of my thinking time. That's why I came to PC, because I felt my feelings were terribly aberrant, like this is highly abnormal I am feeling this way. And I found others here who had felt the same, and this normalized the experience, and then I read the In Session book, and found even more "role models" for my experience. So yeah, I guess I did have erotic transference back then. But things changed after a while, and I passed through that phase into a deeper bond, not so obsessive, just really comfortable and warm and filled with trust to the nth degree. I love what we have now, and I think maybe I it was essential for me to pass through the erotic transference phase to get here. So, it's all good. I have learned a lot from this thread.