If your therapist says something hurtful and unprofessional, would you return?

@stopdog: I'm still considering returning to this therapist because we've had a good relationship for the past two years where she had been supportive and available. After this incident, I conveyed to her that I thought therapy was a place where I could say anything that came to my mind. And she said agreed, but said that there were some boundaries - which I didn't understand because I couldn't see the distinction. She understood that boundaries were difficult for me to understand so we let that go for the meantime.

I guess whether I stay on or not would depend a lot on how the next few sessions progress. At least she was able to acknowledge her unprofessionalism; some therapists won't even recognize that and continue to be defensive about it. And she is open to working through this "rupture" with me. What I'm worried about is whether she is able to be fully present with me and listen to me in a neutral and professional manner. When I voiced that concern to her, she said that that was for her to worry about and take care of. Well; yes it is. But you can't expect me to feel as safe with you as I did before this incident.

I had bad experiences with previous therapists in the past, and didn't return to therapy for five years. I thought that therapy was a joke. So if things with this therapist doesn't work out, I don't think that I would look for another one again.

@AllHeart: She said thank you for the apology, and said that the point for us was to have boundaries. She agreed that I should be able to say whatever I want, but also said something about boundaries that I couldn't understand. And she was understanding about me not understanding the boundaries that she brought up. I can't even reiterate it.

For those of you who think that I attacked her daughter or the grandchild, I was thinking about how it was fair for her patients and me - in an emotional way. Yes; logically, it's not a matter of fairness or not. But it is that feeling of possibly being ditched that felt like a betrayal in some ways. I don't think it should be that difficult to empathize or understand this given how most of us have a fear of being dropped or ditched. Like I said to the therapist, I am sorry for letting my emotions get the best of me and lashing out; I am sorry from one human being to another. But I am not sorry for expressing myself to her - in a professional setting with her as the therapist.

It's good to tell a therapist when they are causing distress and opening old wounds--but that's totally different than going after their child and grandchild. That's one of those areas that's just hands off—at least, in my experience—unless you want to alienate people. In hindsight, she should not have shared anything personal, but that ship sailed. I hope you work it out.

You are entitled to have reactions, but that's not the same as being entitled to verbally abuse your therapist. I don't feel like her response was unprofessional given the provocation. As much as you're talking about empathy, you appear to be unable to employ it yourself. I also don't blame her for telling you about the possibility, because you admit that you asked. Would you have preferred she lie? What could she have done to avoid becoming the object of your attack? You say she should have known how you would react (I disagree, I think your response was outrageous), but the same can be said of you - when you chose to ask, you should have considered whether you could handle the answer.

Until and unless you express sincere remorse for attacking her that way, which it doesn't seem like you will, I think this episode will be a barrier in treatment.

Judgement aside, I'm really sorry you're having to face the possibility of losing your T. That's really tough.

I’m actually never been remorseful for any verbal attack I made on the woman. She provoked it, she set up the rules, and she never apologized to me. As far as I’m concerned there’s people deserve what they get

I’m actually never been remorseful for any verbal attack I made on the woman. She provoked it, she set up the rules, and she never apologized to me. As far as I’m concerned those people deserve what they get. I certainly wouldn’t be more remorseful than the therapist was for screwing up in the first place

I must be missing something. Is this the quote that has people up in arms:
“One of the things that I said was how is it fair at 15, 18 or 20 patients lives are going to be affected because two young people decides to shag up and have a baby?”
It’s insensitive but far from verbal abuse or being some irrepairable attack IMO. Ops response is a normal reaction to being exposed to bad boundaries. If the therapist doesn’t want to be exposed to personal comments she ought to know not to burden the client with her personal struggles.

After she told me about the personal situation that was going on, I felt that there were two other people in our sessions - in the room with the therapist and myself. I would start our sessions asking how things were and if everything was okay. It became difficult for me to focus on myself until I learned that there was a possibility she would move out-of-state. I was going to have my own emotional response to the situation as a patient eventually. Did I lash out? Yes. Could I have done it differently? Yes. I had four days to calm down before I would talk to her again, but I couldn't; I needed to get it out the way it did. Was I expected to be considerate the entire time and not have any negative feelings in response to the situation? I also did warn her that I had some hateful and angry thoughts towards her family and that I wasn't sure if I should exprrss them.

She said that if they are that angry, then all the more should I express what was on my mind. I also did pause during my angry rant to check in on her if I could carry on. She also said that you're saying insulting things about "MY children." Why does it matter whose children it is - hers or someone elses - when it's the situation to which I was emotionally responding to and she has a duty to be neutral and professional and keep her personal feelings outside our session? Yes; things were raw for her and she is human after all.

I think that a good therapist who has it together would not have said or retaliated the way she did. But she is only human after all. She also said that I was saying some things that made it very difficult for her to empathize with me. I don't think it's fair for her to blame her response on me. On the one hand, it is true that humans have a tendency to react defensively when someone is speaking angrily to them. Maybe it's even a fight or flight response. On the other hand, she also had the choice of being a professional and the mature one and maintaining her composure. It's not fair for her to blame it all on me. In fact, sometimes a person speaking angrily can make it easier for us to understand or empathize with that person. I think that both of us have a share of responsibility in this.

If she can't handle how her personal situation would affect an emotional response in me, then she shouldn't have invited me to say what was on my mind. I did give her a heads up after all. So again, I am sorry for lashing out the way that I did to her as a human being, but not so to her as the therapist.

As difficult as it is, if she continues to be unable to see how it is the thought of her moving out-of-state in and of itself that was distressing for me, then there's no basis for is to carry on this therapeutic relationship. If she can't take some responsibility for reacting unprofessionally and wants to blame it all on me making it difficult for her to empathize with me, then I think that there's also no basis for us to carry on working together. I have already stood up and owned my part; she needs to do the same.

Ouch- this would really upset me too- I have a baby issue. I think she broke the frame and violated her theraputic stance severely- so much for unconditional positive regard. She should not have told you about the premature baby in the first place. The person she should talk to about that is her own therapist or in supervision.

This is a serious rupture, and repairing it is an important part of her job. I don't know what I would do. I would be beside myself if my T said that, but I am so attached to him.

This is a cross roads in your relationship, and it is caused by your T making a big boo boo. As the patient faced with an abandonment threat, you are free to express your feelings.

If my T did this, he would not charge for the session and be up all night worrying about it.

I am torn what you should do- so sorry horrid situation.

I so get this. I think it is good that you were/are able to stand so solidly in your own interests. She WAS threatening you with being ditched.

During the course of our therapy, I would text her outside of sessions to ask if she was mad at me. She would always respond saying no, et cetera. Well; she isn't responding to that message now even though I added that I would cancel our appointment if so. Either she is withholding empathy or is still mad at me but doesn't want to say it. I don't want to come in and pay to talk to a therapist who is still angry at me. LoL. Well; I'm seeing her tomorrow. I'm thinking about asking her if she has availability to talk today. I'm traveling out-of-town in a few days, and want this settled.

It would depend on what was said, but every T is also human and is bound to put his/her foot in his/her mouth occasionally.

My current T and I have worked through a number of foot-in-mouth situations.

The probability of it happening doesn't take away from the screwup by the therapist when the therapist does massively screw up. You live I never found one work through something with the therapist. I only worked around the therapist, usually by seeing another at the same time Who is better able to handle that which the first therapist screwed up

Now going back and reading what happened, I actually don't think your therapist was out of line. (Maybe I'm a weird one.) Unless you are in psychoanalysis - in which case, your T completely f-ed up by telling you anything personal.

But, if you are not doing strict psychoanalysis, then I think your T is absolutely in the right to say that there are boundaries about what can be said. And I say this with total understanding on your part, I really do, because my long-term T told me there was a possibility of him leaving (and then he did in fact move), and after he told me that, all hell broke loose. I crossed similar boundaries! (I actually threw things and kicked his wall until I left a mark and SI-ed in the session while he wasn't looking. I said a LOT of things, and he said that I was attacking him too.)

now, my termination was handled awfully, so I won't go into how it was handled -- but, my current T now has certainly stated that there are boundaries in that room with him.

That said -- I think you've every right to express your feelings -- but...it's your therapist's JOB to enforce boundaries...and that's what she did. And your reaction to those boundaries being enforced would be a really good thing to look at in your therapy.

The problem is the therapist didn't say they were boundaries ahead of time about what the client may and may not say to that therapist without the therapist retaliating at them.
I am very surprised people are defending this therapist

They set up rules and I think they should be expected to abide by them - that they lie and manipulate the client is completely separate from the rules about what they say a client can say are completely different to me. For me, if one likes to fight I would go in and attack the therapist again, if one doesn't like to fight then I would find a new one.

"After she told me about the personal situation that was going on, I felt that there were two other people in our sessions - in the room with the therapist and myself. I would start our sessions asking how things were and if everything was okay. It became difficult for me to focus on myself until I learned that there was a possibility she would move out-of-state. I was going to have my own emotional response to the situation as a patient eventually."

How is it even remotely acceptable for a therapist to tell clients of their personal struggles like this? Pretty sure therapy is not designed for the client to take care of the therapist. This is exactly what goes wrong when it does. The client, already dealing with their own burdens, is now forced to carry burdens of the therapist.

Good boundaries need to start with the therapist. The therapist did not adhere to good boundaries, yet, the op is expected to? Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

@stopdog: You mentioned seeing another therapist at the same time to handle the screw up by the first therapist. Did you ever go back to the first therapist and carry on the therapy work?

IF the therapist is able to be professional and neutral, I think the ideal situation would be for the therapist and patient to work through any conflicts or ruptures together. I think that can teach the patient a lot and foster a better therapeutic relationship in the long run.

I said to the therapist that maybe I should talk about my feelings to another therapist in the meantime. And she said that it could be a good idea. LoL.

@AllHeart: I think that there is some responsibility on my part why she revealed personal information. Her daughters got married over the summer. She said that she was going to be traveling for a couple of weeks. Now I have very goood intuition and had it right. She said yes. And because of how much I know people love babies, I asked her if this meant that she would be traveling more frequently in the near future should there be a grandchild. She said that she would let me know when the time comes. Then her daughter had a medical emergency, and she had to travel out-of-state. I did not know it was her daughter yet at that point aside from that she had a family medical emergency. When we did phone, I asked if everything was okay. Back then when she texted me, she said that she didn't know yet if she could keep our time by phone, but she was expecting to. I didn't hear back from her for two days until ten minutes before our appointment time when she confirmed that we could talk. Now because of the initial ambiguity and last minute confirmation, it only got me more worried. That's when she shared it with me. Did she have to tell me that it was premature, weighs 1 pound, and is the size of a hand? Probably not.

I saw two of them at the same time. I stopped telling the first woman about anything other than my sick person - which even she could not screw up and I told the second one about other things. It worked well for me. I did not seek their permission to see both of them and never spoke about one to the other. I have never believed in the idea of working through their **** ups as helping me in any way. I tried it a couple of times and it was a spectacular failure on the part of the woman. So I stopped bothering with her on that.

@stopdog: I see. Thank you for sharing that. I can't see myself going back to therapists who can't acknowledge their mistakes. It wouldn't feel like a safe therapeutic relationship anymore if they can't be reasonable as persons and professionally.

I think this is situation is really an "it takes two to tango" kind. You comment may have felt attacking, but she instigated it in the first place by sharing that about her personal life, she was the first to break the frame, if we can say that. If she simply stated the possibility of her having to move away, you would not have attacked her family but maybe only her, and that would have been a perfectly appropriate thing to figure out in therapy. This is something I would definitely tell her if there was a discussion about it.

In any case, what's done is done, none of you can take back the comments and their effects now. But if she is unable to move on and treat you without underlying resentment now, she would probably be best to address it in supervision or be straightforward about it with you (which few Ts ever do, I think). Letting your interactions colored by this on an ongoing basis and not doing anything about it is what would be unprofessional.

I had a T who pi$$ed me off in many ways with being very messy with boundaries and with his strong emotional reactions to my criticisms, and he never owned it or apologized, not even once. I never attacked him in any form other that targeting it directly to him / what he did or said, but he could not tolerate it. Cultivated resentments without resolution can be hurtful and damaging even in everyday relationships, let alone from a T toward a client. Your comment may have been especially hurtful to her as well, but responding to it with an ongoing current of resentment or avoidance is not professional either. Having said that, it might be that she is just busy and that's why she is not responding to email momentarily.

If you like the T in general and find sessions with her beneficial, I would not let this incident break it without addressing it at least. If not, then maybe it's time to end it anyway. But judging by your posts here, I imagine it would stick in your mind and would remain an unresolved hurtful experience for you as well, without real lessons?

I'm actually entirely with Stopdog on this one... hah.

I don't think it was appropriate or ethical for mindmechanic's T to share the personal information that she shared, and it was even more stupid to float the idea of possibly moving away without being clear on what was actually going to happen. I'm not surprised that mindmechanic lashed out the way they did and I don't blame them for it. The T should have been aware of the very strong feelings that would be stirred up by her behaviour and able to handle it more kindly and gracefully (or not stirred them up in the first place, of course).

The whole situation has come about because the T has bad boundaries and/or is overwhelmed by personal difficulties that have left her unfit to practice. It's her responsibility alone.

Your T made a massive mistake by giving you so much information about what is going on and by allowing you to take care of her. This never should have become an issue in your therapy. She sounds so close to being a good, thoughtful T, but this life stress appears to be compromising her judgment. I think anything that happens in therapy is fair game for you to respond to, so she shouldn't bring in anything about herself or her life that she hasn't dealt with sufficiently to be able to handle whatever response you had. She should have said, "I am dealing with a family health crisis. I am fine, but it is going to affect my availability in the following specific ways. Now, how are things going with [therapy thing you have been working on]?"

I said something to my T once about a situation that wasn't nearly this life-or-death, but it was very critical of her and was completely not my business. (Something akin to me saying she was a bad parent because of a parenting decision she made.) She responded by validating my feelings and working through it without snapping back at me or getting defensive. She has told me since then that even when I was being critical of her, she could hold onto who she knew herself to be and not be overly influenced by my strong feelings. And dissecting my feelings and why I responded so strongly was hugely helpful for me. It would have been a missed opportunity if she had gotten defensive in the way your T did.

It is also jaw-droppingly unprofessional for her to speculate about whether she was moving. Do that with your friends or in your own therapy, lady! I have had similar issues with being afraid my T will move away, and when I expressed my anxiety, she said, "I understand why you're worried, and I will tell you that I have no plans to move right now." Boom. If she did decide to move, I know that she would only tell me if she was 100% sure, and she would think about the best way to tell me and what I would need during the termination phase. She wouldn't let me drift around in her free-floating anxiety with her.

Your T is right about this being a boundary issue, though. Specifically, it's about her inability to hold good boundaries. You did nothing wrong. The client gets to say whatever the client wants to say. Her inability to see this even after she has cooled down means that she needs to take some time away to deal with her personal life and emotions rather than dragging them into the room and making them your problem. I hope she can work this out with you, but I think your feelings about this situation are justified. Therapy needs to be about you and your needs and your issues. What she is doing around this rupture is not therapy.

I'm seeing her today in about 3 hours.

I sensing some micro hostility emanating from her. She told me that we would be in a different room today at 1413. I asked if that's the child's room. She knows that I avoid using that room for many different reasons. It has officially became her office in the recent months, but before that, it was a child's room. She responded saying yes, 1413 is the room you call the child room. Wtf. Seriously? Do you have to put it that way that 1413 is the room that I call the child room? You know what I meant; you could have just said yes.

I'm basically kind of shocked and disappointed. I expected a whole lot more maturity and professionalism from this therapist.

Mindmechanic, I wonder how you would have felt or reacted if she hadn't answered all your questions directly?