[here today]

For most of my life that I can remember I didn’t feel “hurt feelings”. I knew that hurting other people’s feelings was “bad” and hence “I”, or my nervous system, shut down what would have been the response systems – defending myself or retaliating, for instance. I just didn’t “feel” those feelings and didn’t act out, even as a child very much. My feelings just didn’t get “hurt” – except that the anger/aggression that was generated internally by those cut-off, unconscious response systems “I”, or my nervous system, redirected at myself. I didn’t really have a lot of choice about that severe self-hate problem. I understand that some of you may not understand or agree that it is possible that someone doesn’t have a lot of “choice” but arguing with me about how I learned to process things and adapt to my early life is really sort of, well,. . .I think I will take my own counsel about that. I tried taking therapists and “counselors” opinions for years and years and years without much success.

I understand about those of you for whom this may not make sense, and who therefore may feel a response impulse to argue with me. I understand that it may be difficult to impossible for you to believe that anybody could be like this because it’s so different from the way you are, perhaps. Most therapists have not understood it. But am I really so entirely all by myself, or does this make sense to anybody else?

I believed, and still believe, that allowing those reponse-systems "on" sometimes was the only way to learn about them, to learn "who they are", and what they have to tell me about (possibly unsafe) people in my environment.

I told my last therapist that I didn't feel that one of my "parts" was welcome in her consulting room. When she reacted to my partially subdued "lashing out" responses, I told her to put on a haz-mat suit. I had the ability NOT to lash out by keeping that part of me "off" when I was in the therapy room, but what was the point of that? With a trauma and dissociation specialist?

We terminated the therapy almost a year and a half ago because she "didn't have the emotional resources" to continue treating me and "we were stuck". This kind of does mimic what happened in my family, and I am accepting some (still near unbearable) lost hopeless feelings. There may be others i don't know about yet.

The real deal problem for me at the moment is that I long ago felt -- and still feel - so all alone. So, can anybody here on PC understand this situation as I have described it? Or, if you have experienced anything similar, I would be interested in hearing about it. And how you moved forward, if you have.

[unaluna]

I have a similar thing that ive discussed with my ts.

One incident comes to mind. In 9th grade, my first year in public school, there was a sadie hawkins dance. I mentioned to a girl in gym class that i thought a certain guy was cute. She told me he liked me too. So i asked him. He said, lady, i dont even know you! Turns out i had confided in his steady gf! I guess she decided to teach me a lesson and embarrass me. I was like, all she had to do was tell me that was HER bf - i was just clueless.

But mostly i was puzzled. I was like - was that supposed to hurt my feelings? Did she think it was possible for HER to hurt my feelings? I didnt even know who she was, how could she hurt me? In talking with my ts, we figured out i was immune to any school bullying because the "teasing" i got at home was pretty brutal.

I learned from it tho. I was like a 10 year old girl Don Rickles. Sarcastic AF. No heart.

Thats why you see me struggle with it here. Constant jokes, but a tender remark when someone is hurting is very difficult for me. It helps that my t LOOKS like a sweet little puppy dog.

[here today]

Thanks! I tried my best to fall into line with the expected nice girl route, almost totally fake but it's like being fake nice WAS my way of trying to be really "nice", and express my love for my family that wanted it like that, if that makes any sense. Very confusing, even to me, even still I'm not sure it makes much sense.

By the way -- I think you said you were a math major? I was, too, not a very good student but all those abstractions -- take me away from the "real world"! Only here it is, still here.

I do relate to a lot of it. I've never experienced myself as fragmented, unfamiliar "parts" taking over etc. But isolating the hurt feelings and wanting to have self-control over my vulnerabilities and insecurities, not asking help from anyone is a major part of my history and a source of many of my problems earlier in life (still challenging but now I consciously try to go against the current). Now at least I do seek/accept help in practical things. I never even went to therapy until I was 40 years old (now 43), but actually that is for the better... in any case, I've proven very therapy-resistant, in spite of having all my interest in psychology and even therapy on a more theoretical level. I was never terminated by a T (I dumped both of them more than once instead), but I did get into situations with both of them that they were mostly clueless and just let me do whatever, within certain limits of their engagement (big difference between two Ts in terms of how much and what kind of engagement).

The dissociation is interesting, because years ago I would have never described my defenses as such. Other people did though! I've just become more deeply interested in this based on some posts on PC, including actually some of yours, here today. Now I do believe that I have a form of this but I do not experience it as unconscious/automatic... more like a learned process over time, to manipulate my own awareness "as needed", as a defense to be able to effectively deal with certain situations. This "manipulating my awareness" is also something that was pointed out to me a few years ago by someone (not a T) and I find it more and more accurate as I become more conscious of how I actually do it in everyday life. I also did in therapy, I think - part of the reason why it never affected me very negatively, beyond transient annoyances.

I've been told many times that I should allow myself to feel my feelings more directly and more frequently, but somehow I have a massive resistance to going over a certain limit with it. I much more often retreat into intellectualization - it is very hard to break for me even with awareness.

On being alone - that's another feature that, I think, I tend to kinda ignore or even dissociate. I am very much a loner kind of person but rarely feel lonely, if that makes sense. I usually do when I am very depressed or otherwise in a bad place mentally.

For me, as I said I don't experience myself as having parts or fragments - much more like it's a gigantic one mutidimensional web, both developmentally and in complexity in the present, and my focus moves all over the place, while I always have a strong sense how everything is interconnected. Internally, but as I said other people, when they experience many aspects of me at different times, do describe it as having many faces and elements of it that often surprise them. When I was in therapy, Ts I interviewed, and the two who worked with me for a while, tended to be intensely interested in and drawn to me - but in the end, still clueless. Same experiences with many people throughout my life. I usually then just got the feedback of being so different, unique, unlike anyone else they have experienced, and am left again to myself to try to understand it

Oh, actually one of the reasons why I like this psychotherapy forum and come here regularly even though I am no longer in therapy is because I feel that there are a larger number of people here than in my general environment that I easily relate to in various ways. Lots of similarities. But maybe this is just because here we talk about these deeply personal things all the time, and in the everyday, I actually isolate myself from experiencing the same quite often?

[SalingerEsme]

I definitely understand the mechanism you describe bc you describe it really well. It is almost like dissociation away from hurt feelings, and the price of being numb to them is that they have the alchemy of turning into anger against yourself.

That is a very lucid thought, and I would think a specialist would understand.

Therapy is fraught with peril because it happens in a filed between two people's nervous systems. It isn't just the therapist regulating the client , bc sometimes the therapist goes blind to their own countertransference or gets sucked into an enactment, and then the patient dysregulates the therapist. It sounds liked your T screwed up. Or maybe she has a weakness she hasn't resolved yet in dealing with anger that is about her and her past, and not about you her client going to her for help. But you have practice turning things against yourself.

Some T's don't like to treat trauma and dissociative disorders bc they don't have the solid ground under their feet to stop the undertow created by a patient's stuff from pulling both under water. It is supposed to be the T who keeps both above water. I believe things can go right with a great therapist- the statistic is crazy - intense like 20 percentt of the trauma t's have 80 percent of the good outcomes.

That is a long way of saying it sounds like your T let you down hugely, and now you are suffering from her inadequacy . I still believe you can find that right T who will help you though.

I have loved listening to therapist's podcasts like Between Us - episode 14 Courageous Speech and The Trauma Therapist. You get a window into what goes on behind the curtain- who is Oz and who isn't.

[guilloche]

It doesn't seem that unusual or uncommon to me as a defense mechanism? As a small child - you HAVE to do something when you're overwhelmed, right? In a perfect world, your parents would help you regulate, would listen to you, soothe you, etc. But, when your parents miss the boat - you're left alone with intolerable feelings and have to work out something on your own. Splitting those feelings off so that you can just not feel them (if I'm understanding you correctly) seems like a good solution that allows you to function and make a better life for yourself (as opposed to numbing your feelings with drugs, for example).

What you've described with your last therapist makes me incredibly sad, and I think it's also not uncommon. For me, I feel like that's part of how I need to "use" the relationship - I need to examine what's going on between me and my therapist, how we're interacting, what's upsetting me, what I'm causing them to feel - and that THAT's really part of what good therapy needs to include.

Yet - most of my therapists have seemed reluctant to do that and very uncomfortable. It's like having those conversations, bringing them into the therapeutic spotlight (by looking at their reactions, their words, their actions) is too scary/hard for them - they're more comfortable when it's just focused on me. Even those this focus on them is a roundabout way to help me understand myself.

My last therapist told me that talking about our relationship was too "meta" - he wanted me to focus on discussing things outside of the therapy room. Even though the things inside the therapy room were more distressing to me, in the moment, and actually should have been easier for him, since he could actually witness what was going on (rather than trying to guess about interactions outside of the room).

I don't know the answer. I liked that my last therapist, despite his "meta" comments, had a very strong sense of self - he projected stability, like a rock. I haven't felt that from other therapists. I think that's necessary for them to be able to do what we're talking about - stand still and let you have your negative emotions, without letting their own emotions get in the way, being defensive, or shutting you down. It's hard... but it's something a good T *should* be able to do (but most can't, in my experience!)

I wonder often if a psychoanalytic T would be better in this regard... it seems like they're trained (re: transference) to use the relationship in this way, without getting hurt/defensive. I don't know, as I've never had the chance to meet with one...

(Sorry if I missed the point of your post. I feel like I might have, but wanted to respond, because I do think that therapists should and need to do better in this area. Every time a therapist does what your last one did, ends the relationship because they can't handle your affect - it sends such a negative message, in my mind, and makes it that much harder to move forward with the actual healing. It feels very... unethical, I think? to me.)

Maybe I am biased... but I do strongly have the impression, based on this forum, that the majority of the people who end up not using therapy in traditional forms (because those basically fail) or don't find therapy very useful/transformative in general, are those who are especially critical thinkers and have strong independent minds and agendas (anther, less flattering, word could be stubborn, but maybe that's just me ). Critical about psychology, therapy, or the Ts at least. I am not sure it's all (or even mostly?) about transferences... maybe a large part is a certain thinking and emotional style. And the Ts either don't tend to tolerate that well and so the relationship fails, they kinda give up, or their efforts won't be very useful for the client. Am I seeing this incorrectly? If not, is it really useful to experiment with therapy further after a few (or many) relatively thorough trials, at all? Wouldn't it likely just generate additional frustration and wasted time/money/effort, not just for the client but for the T as well? This is definitely my current conclusion for myself right now. We could discuss the potential origins of these "resistant phenotypes" (I personally believe it is a combination of individual biology and whatever life experiences we had) but identifying those causal factors would not resolve the fact that perhaps conventional therapy is just not a very effective route of healing/self-improvement for some?

[atisketatasket]

I swear Xynethesia and I are like astrological twins, but she got the articulate gene.

I am pretty much about to give up with therapy. Info seems to have serious limitations, though she’s mostly been good about my criticisms. I have an appointment with another (Piaf) in January but that’s largely because she seems smart. We’ll see.

I think one problem with therapy for some clients is that it is artificial (even the therapists say so), and you have to be willing to put aside your sense that you’re in a lab and look past the seams, so to speak. If you’re trained not to do that, as I am, therapy just may not work for you. It’s a problem.

OP—on hurt feelings, the hazmat suit is exactly what a therapist should be wearing (good line). No professional’s feelings should be so close to the surface that they get hurt easily barring some truly offensive statement. They should be like those of us who push down those feelings, at least as therapists. Let them do their I’m-in-touch-with-my-emotions stuff somewhere else.

[Buffy01]

Originally Posted by here today

For most of my life that I can remember I didn’t feel “hurt feelings”. I knew that hurting other people’s feelings was “bad” and hence “I”, or my nervous system, shut down what would have been the response systems – defending myself or retaliating, for instance. I just didn’t “feel” those feelings and didn’t act out, even as a child very much. My feelings just didn’t get “hurt” – except that the anger/aggression that was generated internally by those cut-off, unconscious response systems “I”, or my nervous system, redirected at myself. I didn’t really have a lot of choice about that severe self-hate problem. I understand that some of you may not understand or agree that it is possible that someone doesn’t have a lot of “choice” but arguing with me about how I learned to process things and adapt to my early life is really sort of, well,. . .I think I will take my own counsel about that. I tried taking therapists and “counselors” opinions for years and years and years without much success.

I understand about those of you for whom this may not make sense, and who therefore may feel a response impulse to argue with me. I understand that it may be difficult to impossible for you to believe that anybody could be like this because it’s so different from the way you are, perhaps. Most therapists have not understood it. But am I really so entirely all by myself, or does this make sense to anybody else?

I believed, and still believe, that allowing those reponse-systems "on" sometimes was the only way to learn about them, to learn "who they are", and what they have to tell me about (possibly unsafe) people in my environment.

I told my last therapist that I didn't feel that one of my "parts" was welcome in her consulting room. When she reacted to my partially subdued "lashing out" responses, I told her to put on a haz-mat suit. I had the ability NOT to lash out by keeping that part of me "off" when I was in the therapy room, but what was the point of that? With a trauma and dissociation specialist?

We terminated the therapy almost a year and a half ago because she "didn't have the emotional resources" to continue treating me and "we were stuck". This kind of does mimic what happened in my family, and I am accepting some (still near unbearable) lost hopeless feelings. There may be others i don't know about yet.

The real deal problem for me at the moment is that I long ago felt -- and still feel - so all alone. So, can anybody here on PC understand this situation as I have described it? Or, if you have experienced anything similar, I would be interested in hearing about it. And how you moved forward, if you have.

I only feel this way when I feel like I am shutting down emotionally. Unless I am shutdown? I don't feel pain. But I can be more of an empathy.

[Buffy01]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I have a similar thing that ive discussed with my ts.

One incident comes to mind. In 9th grade, my first year in public school, there was a sadie hawkins dance. I mentioned to a girl in gym class that i thought a certain guy was cute. She told me he liked me too. So i asked him. He said, lady, i dont even know you! Turns out i had confided in his steady gf! I guess she decided to teach me a lesson and embarrass me. I was like, all she had to do was tell me that was HER bf - i was just clueless.

But mostly i was puzzled. I was like - was that supposed to hurt my feelings? Did she think it was possible for HER to hurt my feelings? I didnt even know who she was, how could she hurt me? In talking with my ts, we figured out i was immune to any school bullying because the "teasing" i got at home was pretty brutal.

I learned from it tho. I was like a 10 year old girl Don Rickles. Sarcastic AF. No heart.

Thats why you see me struggle with it here. Constant jokes, but a tender remark when someone is hurting is very difficult for me. It helps that my t LOOKS like a sweet little puppy dog.

I had a similar experience because I didn't know that I was blunt of the mean joke until later.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Maybe I am biased... but I do strongly have the impression, based on this forum, that the majority of the people who end up not using therapy in traditional forms (because those basically fail) or don't find therapy very useful/transformative in general, are those who are especially critical thinkers

That is an awesome comment, and rings true.

ATAT... But I could talk and write my head off to my Ts and the whole thing ended up basically as entertainment, a hobby, or something akin to that. And my last T was even a pretty close "astrological" twin for me...I consciously looked for one after the disappointment with the first, basically scanning potential Ts for traits and backgrounds similar to mine.

Did it make therapy more interesting and enjoyable? YES!! What's not to like about a kindred spirit, especially one who is pleasant on the eyes as well? He was even very skeptical and critical about therapy himself and did not mind sharing that with me. But only moderately "therapeutic" for me, and to pay $200/hour for a mirror-buddy?!

I do really feel that many of us who share the patterns that we are discussing here could find more healing and benefit in doing what we do here on PC, in everyday life, with select people around us who meet certain standards. That would not be artificial. Why it is so hard to move beyond the barriers to that on a consistent basis though is another discussion...

[here today]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

. . .I believe things can go right with a great therapist- the statistic is crazy - intense like 20 percentt of the trauma t's have 80 percent of the good outcomes.

That is a long way of saying it sounds like your T let you down hugely, and now you are suffering from her inadequacy . I still believe you can find that right T who will help you though.
. . .

1 in 5 is a pretty low number, and I've tried a lot of therapists already. Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'm done with looking for therapists. I'm making it one day at a time, so that much is good.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

. . .
I do really feel that many of us who share the patterns that we are discussing here could find more healing and benefit in doing what we do here on PC, in everyday life, with select people around us who meet certain standards. That would not be artificial. Why it is so hard to move beyond the barriers to that on a consistent basis though is another discussion...

I agree, but feel pretty clueless about it at the moment. Do you have any ideas?

[ruh roh]

I can relate so much that I even had some of this discussion with my therapist and she did not deny that there are parts she doesn't like--although the way she put it is that she does not dislike them, but they make it difficult to be liked, or something like that. So I don't honestly know what the answer is to finding acceptance and belonging when there is so much unexpressed pain with nowhere to land.

Originally Posted by here today

I agree, but feel pretty clueless about it at the moment. Do you have any ideas?

Maybe... When I was younger, from the earliest point back in kindergarten, I always had one good/close/trusted (whatever you want to call it) friend. I was never abused in my family of origin, but was pretty heavily bullied in my larger social environment - my kid/youngster peers, for about the first ~10 years of my life. That is how I remember it vividly up to date - unfair judgments and abuse. It does not really matter for the sake of this discussion what about, but I will share: it was about my body size and weight. I grew up fast and was heavier/taller than most of my peers by/before age 10, but also developing perhaps too fast as a girl/woman. And also developing fast cognitively, according to my teachers. So I was always feeling attacked for developmental features I had no control of, in response criticizing and excluding by my peers for the same. I always related more to my teachers/mentors/parents more than to other kids. And I got lucky I guess, as my social environment enforced (basically people frequenting our house as I was growing up) by my family of origin, and especially dad, was supportive.

My first good memory goes back to kindergarten... There was a boy, criticized, excluded, bullied by our peers - another person just like myself, someone I could relate to and spend time "scheming revenge" or just sit and talk about whatever interested us, away from the bullies, all day, everyday. I still remember him and our talks and explorations in kindergarten very well, to date. It lasted pretty much my 3 years in kindergarten.

I think I have transferred and cultivated the same "finding a buddy" throughout my whole life thus far. Basically, in all of my reasonably happy periods, I have always had a close friend. Often this would coincide, collide, conflict, etc with romantic relationships. But the thing, for me, is one really good friend, whatever "good" means. It does not even need to be geographical or physical. More like an understanding, similar mind in the everyday, private life. It makes ALL the difference for me, really. Sometimes more than one friend, like 1-2-3 friends. Depends on many factors and period.

You know, here today... when I read some of your posts, I kinda had the feeling that you had found at least one of those people in your past husband... I also had a romantic partner of that caliber - he did not die - but I ended it for other reasons.

Anyhow, if you ask me for a suggestion: try to find and keep one close friend. For me, it makes all the world of difference. I actually need to reiterate this to myself now as currently I am not following my own prescription.

[peaches100]

Part of the reason my last rupture with my t was so bad was because she let her ego take precedence. She got hurt/angry about something I said in an email message, and responded by ignoring me/shutting me out at a time when a close relative of mine was dying and t had promised to support me in any way I needed. Since then, she has apologized, and we've been working through it. But damage was still done.

T has been remind me that she is not perfect, which may have been part of the problem. In some ways, I had an idealistic view of her, so when she failed me, I viewed it as intentional. I expected that as a trained professional, I could count on her knowing the right thing to do, and reacting the right way.

This last big rupture has shown me that my is not as wise and skilled as I thought she was. That's not to say that she can't help me learn and improve my life. But she isn't that "perfect parent" I had wanted her to be (and, for a long time, had needed to see her as).

[here today]

Originally Posted by peaches100

Part of the reason my last rupture with my t was so bad was because she let her ego take precedence. She got hurt/angry about something I said in an email message, and responded by ignoring me/shutting me out at a time when a close relative of mine was dying and t had promised to support me in any way I needed. Since then, she has apologized, and we've been working through it. But damage was still done.

T has been remind me that she is not perfect, which may have been part of the problem. In some ways, I had an idealistic view of her, so when she failed me, I viewed it as intentional. I expected that as a trained professional, I could count on her knowing the right thing to do, and reacting the right way.

This last big rupture has shown me that my is not as wise and skilled as I thought she was. That's not to say that she can't help me learn and improve my life. But she isn't that "perfect parent" I had wanted her to be (and, for a long time, had needed to see her as).

The problem for me wasn't idealization per se. I may have emotionally idealized therapy in general but not the therapists.

The problem was that I could not understand my therapist's shaming and disapproval when I uttered a curse word at her. That seems like a violation of the "rules" of therapy. The next session she said that she got "triggered" but did not apologize per se. Nor did she seem to have any awareness that her shaming and disapproval had pulled the rug out from under me, and my trust in her, etc. (And the part of me that would have known that wasn't talking. She wasn't "in the room" any more.) The therapist was still focused on herself, somewhat aware perhaps that she had "messed up", and offering excuses. She was apparently unable to see herself as someone who hurts and causes harm sometimes, too.

[SalingerEsme]

PC is like a think tank. I love the processing and pondering that goes on here, the voices and perspectives coming together and making sense of things communally or even feeling free to clash.

[unaluna]

Feeling bad is a gift, like puking when you have food poisoning. A t's job is to help you get thru it.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Feeling bad is a gift, like puking when you have food poisoning. A t's job is to help you get thru it.

I think they sit there thinking of their grocery list while the client pukes. The therapist doesn't do anything useful.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think they sit there thinking of their grocery list while the client pukes. The therapist doesn't do anything useful.

"I would be happy to calmly sit with you while you puke and let you know that things will be OK. That is, as long as you puke within the specified hour during which you have your therapy session. Should you get food poisoning and have a high fever, simultaneous projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea outside of your session time, please use your coping skills and write down how it felt to be at death's door, puking your guts out, all alone at home. When you come in next week, we can process that."

Sorry...one of those days when I'm feeling sarcastic.

[guilloche]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Feeling bad is a gift, like puking when you have food poisoning. A t's job is to help you get thru it.

Ha! Unaluna, I like you lots... and I think I undestand where you're coming from here, but "feeling bad is a gift" - is not something I can easily wrap my brain around.

That's one gift that I'd love to return! I want a refund!

(Sorry, had to be said!)

[here today]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Feeling bad is a gift, like puking when you have food poisoning. A t's job is to help you get thru it.

This -- fortunately or unfortunately -- really strikes a nerve.

I have NEVER had a T who could tolerate my puking.

I even used the v***ing analogy with my last T. I told her that it was like I went to the doctor because I had this uncontrolled v***ing and the receptionist said, you can't stay here in the waiting room with that uncontrolled v****ing, come back when you're not v***ing any more or can control it. yeah.

The T said she didn't want me to have to leave -- but eventually, when I got into the room with her, the "doctor", the specialist even, she could not tolerate it either. WTF.

There IS no help in the world for this uncontrolled v***ing. None in the therapists' "book of tricks", or methodologies. Nothing.

I CAN "control" it, turn it off, in order not to be rejected. But then there's a lot -- well the whole system of gut instincts, etc. -- that is turned off with it.

[guilloche]

Originally Posted by here today

The problem was that I could not understand my therapist's shaming and disapproval when I uttered a curse word at her.

I don't think the problem was your lack of understanding, but the way your T handled it. It just sounds like she didn't have the skills or internal stability to handle it gracefully, and to not take it personally.

Honestly, I don't know the right answer here. I feel like it's not unreasonable, in one sense, for Ts to say, "Hey, I'm human too, and it hurts when you lash out at me. Let's talk about who you're really mad at!"

On the other hand, I feel like Ts have GOT to have that internal sense of stability that, when a client curses at them, or says something mean, that they can withstand it with grace - without acting out, lashing back, or shaming them. That's sort of part of the job description, isn't it?

It very much reminds me of parenting. When your angry, rebellious teen yells, "I hate you! You are the worst parent in the world! I can't wait until I move out and never have to talk to you again! You suck!" - and storms off... as a parent, you shame them or yell back. You accept that that's where they're at, they're acting out a little right now but your job is to be a point of stability and safety.

I hate that your T failed you like this. And, I hate that there doesn't seem to be a good way, upfront, to determine if a T is going to be strong enough to handle the stuff that comes up. I mean, if you had known that this T couldn't handle your anger, would you have even started with her at all? Or would you have tried to find somebody else?

By the way... I sort of wish you could see my ex-T. I don't think you'd really like him though, but I DO think he projects that kind of stability. One of the things that he said early on, when I was nervous about giving him negative feedback, was, "I hope you know, I've been doing this long enough that if you say you hate me, or if you say that I'm the best therapist you've ever seen, either way... it's not going to really affect me that much" (or something like that, I don't think I have the wording exactly right).

What I heard though was... "It's OK to be mad at me. It's OK to tell me that I suck, I'm screwing up, I'm awful. I'll still be here, and I won't lash out at you." And I found that very helpful, and not a feeling that I've really gotten from other Ts.