[tomatenoir]

Hi, nice to meet everyone. Sorry this is long; I appreciate all advice and would especially love to hear from anyone who has gone through anything similar. TL/DR: If your problem is making human connections, is therapy the right place to work on that?

I've been seeing a therapist for three months now. I came in for a specific issue -- which we mostly focused on for the first two months, and which he has helped enormously with -- then I decided to carry on with the intention of trying to solve longterm issues I've had. For what it's worth, I think my therapist is competent, intelligent, professional and empathetic.

The longterm issue I have is opening up emotionally or feeling empathy -- I act and think like a robot. I suffered with fairly severe depression/anxiety/chronic unemployment and underemployment/bottom of the barrel self-esteem until my mid-twenties, (I'm early thirties now) and have basically shut down because any more hurt would have meant I killed myself. When I mostly shut off and saw other people as inanimate objects and stopped trying to win my mother's love and approval, my life came together in a way it never had before. I have a husband and one close friend I am open with, but 95% of the time I feel nothing. I vastly prefer my emotionally dead life to my previously emotional one -- I don't feel things, but I don't live in a torture chamber all day long anymore and I can actually function in the world.

I am now having trouble, because after my therapist helped me so much with my initial issue, I have, quite understandably, developed warm and caring feelings towards him. I basically feel like a human around him, feel like I did around people ten years ago. But in the last couple of weeks I've began to wonder whether therapy is the right way to solve my problem of making human connections, because a therapist can't ever be 'all in' with a client, or have a real relationship with a client, nor would I expect them to.

There have been a couple of times the limits of therapy have rubbed themselves in my face. Once was when we discussed something that upset me to the point I left the office literally shaking in fear, largely due to him charging ahead too quickly into a sensitive issue (the only time I think he has made a mistake), and there was no quick text saying "Are you OK?" I wouldn't normally expect him to contact me outside sessions, but on this occasion it felt cold, harsh and uncaring. The next session he began talking about how upset I'd been at the last session before I even sat down -- the human in him actually seemed desperate to discuss it. But he didn't comment when I said I'd been quite upset with him, he just sat there -- no apology, not even an I'm sorry you feel this way.

Then this weekend, I bumped into him at a festival. He didn't acknowledge me (and that makes complete sense to me, I wouldn't want him to), but the fact that he didn't text to say "Just want to say I saw you but couldn't say hi due to confidentiality reasons. Let's catch up Wed" hurts like hell. Especially since one of my biggest issues and reason for shutting down is people ignoring me. It made me feel invisible and like I've stupidly developed affection for someone who is ultimately unavailable for a two-way emotional relationship.

There are also a couple of times I've asked him generic questions (or questions he could give a generic answer to) about himself, like why he became a therapist or what he's doing on the weekend, mostly because I'm curious and just like him (or at least, therapist him), and he's done everything he could to dodge the question. I've also told him a couple of times I'd like to hug him, but he never stops to discuss this. I was going so mad with wanting any kind of physical touch but not wanting to ask for a hug (because I think it's unfair to ask someone who's providing a professional service for physical intimacy) that I asked to shake his hand. He did, but he looked uncomfortable as anything. And the fact he's never brought it up or shows no inclination to ask if I'd like a handshake or a squeeze on the arm just makes me feel like I did around people ten years ago -- defective and not worth being considered human or cared for -- but now I'm paying for the privilege.

Do you think it's worth leaving therapy over this? I've considered changing therapists, but for all the above he's very good at what he does, he mostly understands me, and he's an exceptional listener. I had one therapist years ago who was good though not as good as him, but I never remember feeling this way with her. The three other therapists I've had were useless or didn't care about me.

And I don't know if changing would even help, because I'm from a country (and had past therapy) where people are more open emotionally.

Anyways, thanks for reading if you made it this far; would love to hear thoughts and suggestions. I'm starting to wonder if joining a club would be more helpful.

[Spangle]

I’m sorry you feel like this & want to say that you ARE worth more than you think & feel. I’ve not ever seen my t out in the ‘real world’ but I understood that it’s up to the client as to whether or not they want acknowledgement. He should have waited to see how you wanted to deal with it, be it just a smile or a verbal hello. I would feel very hurt if my t saw me & just ignored me. Tell him how hurt you were by his behaviour towards you & how he made you feel. I would also pick him up when he avoids things too & ask him as to why he’s avoiding. I think that if you feel you want/need touch from him, I would ask him. Many t’s dont do touch, but I’d ask anyway. I think all of what you are asking is really just ‘grist for the mill’ stuff which your t should encourage you to discuss. If he’s still not prepared to talk about the stuff that’s important to you, then I’d find a different t.

[ElectricManatee]

There are a lot of things you said that resonate with me, and I'm not sure where to start. I do think therapy isn't an either/or thing. So opening up and feeling your feelings again might mean that you're more likely to find other group activities or social events more rewarding. That said, I think you're probably aware that feeling feelings is sort of a double-edged sword in that you are (or will be) feeling positive and negative things more intensely. That's where I am right now. Sometimes I feel like a hermit crab with no shell: unencumbered but dangerously vulnerable.

I can totally understand you wanting your T to react in a more human or friend-like way. But then I think that would blur things really quickly. How would he know when to check up and when not to? What if you felt like he was checking in for is own peace of mind, not yours? Maybe you want to stew and not worry about his feelings. Part of therapy being about you is for your T to be very consistent in his responses and for you to never feel burdened by his "stuff." Also it isn't totally realistic for him to know when you leave and feel upset but generally okay and when you leave upset and wanting a check-in text.

What would have happened if you had initiated contact? Would he have responded? My T has never initiated contact with me (aside from scheduling issues), but she is virtually always responsive when I contact her. Maybe your T wouldn't have wanted to assume that you felt a certain way about seeing him at the festival. I know that a decent number of people would have just wanted to pretend that it had never happened. I can see where your T acting in a social way could make things infinitely more complicated, so maybe it is for the best that he maintains certain therapeutic boundaries. It doesn't mean you have to like it, of course, but I think the boundaries/limits keep things from making therapy into something that it isn't.

That said, it would really bug me if my therapist wouldn't talk about all this stuff: the boundaries around texting, touch, who he is, who he isn't, etc. I know from experience that these can be horrendously painful conversations, but your T absolutely should be willing to go there with you.

I never addressed problems about making/maintaining human connections in therapy much, but have an opinion on the topic. I think many people who try this get stuck in it... instead of focusing on their everyday life and relationships, they get entranced in their feelings for the therapist and the T relationship, that becomes a center of attention, while still no change in "real" relations. And many therapists encourage this even when it becomes clear that the client has expectations and wishes that go beyond the scope of therapy. The relationship with a therapist is very unnatural and limited by default. It may be good to increase awareness to patterns and learn to become more comfortable with sharing private material, but if the therapy fails to encourage the client to focus and apply the lessons to everyday human connections, it will likely create a sort of parallel universe that might even distract from real life improvement.

I do believe that therapy can be useful to work on relationship difficulties for some people, but it needs to be translated and integrated into the connections that are meant to be improved, instead of keeping it isolated in the therapy room, even just mentally.

I do personally believe that the best way to work on social isolation is to make more connections in everyday life (so joining a club may not be a bad idea), and more than just with one single person. I think it is perfectly normal if someone is very lonely, does not have friends etc, but craves contact regardless, if they find one decent, compassionate person, they will likely focus too much attention and expect too much from that single individual. Then every perceived disappointment is amplified. Therapy can be good to discuss and reveal blocks to social life, but ultimately the change needs to occur outside of therapy, and if a T fails to recognize and encourage that, it's probably not a very good T.

If you are satisfied with this T in general, I would not leave over this but would rather push him a bit to talk about it in detail.

[DP_2017]

This could be a long reply, I apologize in advance.

I relate a lot to your post. I however am not married, in fact, I have very few supportive people at all. Most of my support in my life has come from my pets or strangers online.

First I'll address the festival thing. While I've never bumped into my T anywhere, I TOTALLY would be you, with how you feel ignored etc. Someone else pointed above they should of waited for you to decide how to respond, it's what I read all over on how this works. I personally don't get the big deal, its a huge thing, not like anyone is gonna know or care how you know each other. I personally have no issues with people knowing I see a T or that it would be him. *However now that I'm thinking of it I need to ask in the unlikely event we do cross paths, how my T would handle it*
I would for sure bring it up, your feelings about it. absolutely

Second... here is where things get tricky, I don't like giving a lot of personal details online about my T and I. there is a lot of really "fine line" stuff between us... but I'll do what I can to get my point across. My T hugs me, like you, I have wanted that contact for a long time, due to never getting it from my family, only my dogs really and somewhere along the way, I grew to dislike being touched at all, even though I craved it.... so yes we end every season that way, when I cry, he hugs me longer or we do a comfort hand hold. This is all great but trust me, it fuels intense feelings.

I have very much a "Friend like" relationship with my T. Again, not wanting to say too much, because I personally am ok with how things are since my post therapy hope is to be friends to some degree... but this is very confusing at times. It is awesome because he is open with me and I do feel I know quite a bit about him, more than I probably should, but its also helped me feel comfortable and trusting with him. I know for a fact he has several things he does just for me, not other clients. This obviously makes me feel even more close with him.

While the friend like thing is understandable desire, I can tell you from experience, it has it's perks but it also has it's downfalls. I struggle in session often to actually get anywhere progress wise. I feel I've made very small progress in the time we have been together. I struggle at times to be deep and emotional, because I would rather just be chill and relax. It is very conflicting and a mental hell somedays...

However, leading to your last part... that's your call but in my situation as tough as it is on me mentally, no way I'd quit or find a new T. We have an awesome connection that works for me. I would not risk never getting that again with another. I can understand wanting to quit over this, but again, your call. I think at the very least... talk to him about it. Write down notes or send an email if he allows it, explaining some of the things you posted here and how you want to discuss them. Discussing the relationship with have with our T's can be hard but it is needed. My T is well aware of my friendship desires etc.... it was awful and terrifying bringing it up but it all went well.

Whatever you choose.... I wish you luck

[tomatenoir]

Thank you everyone for your kind and thoughtful replies. Electric Manatee, your comparison to a hermit crab without a shell is dead on. I hadn't realised how much I'd shut out feelings even within myself until I went to therapy. Now that I've given myself permission to feel in the privacy of my own home -- with shell on -- my therapist and I are working on letting me feel things for others -- with all the highs and lows that entails. I hope you're further down the road than me... feeling things has made me feel more connected to the world, more human and at peace.

Xynesthesia and DP: I feel sadness (though it's blunted, unfortunately) for the people on this forum who want friendship / something other than a therapist--client relationship, especially for people who have no other support. So many people on this forum seem to be desperately craving connection and build up their lives around a one-hour window with someone who can't possibly give them the level of closeness they need. Xyn, what you said about needing to translate what happens in therapy to outside of therapy is so true. I feel unbelievably safe in the therapy room, and I've point blank told my therapist I need to develop the same kind of places in my real life. I've told him I can't just feel safe and emotional in his office. He listened, but he didn't comment.

I can only say that I'm not angling for my therapist's friendship. I don't want the burden of caring for him, and I would like to end therapy one day and leave him in my past (though I'm sure there will be times I'll miss him and think of him fondly). I look forward to our time together, but I also look forward The Apprentice and going on weekend getaways with my husband and hitting up London to see my friend's new art exhibition. I could definitely see me latching on if I had a smaller support system, but that's not where I'm at currently.

What I'm talking about is human connection, of feeling empathy and care for someone because the human in you recognises the human in them. Particularly when one person had reminded the other that they still belong to the human race. If that makes sense.

Manatee, so much of what you said was helpful. I suppose I'm expecting a lot of someone to know when to text me and when not to, so thank you for that. That perspective is enormously helpful. I probably message him once every other week -- usually to share a song or piece of writing we spoke about in session but which I couldn't find on my phone at the time. He's off the clock, so I try to limit it to something he could respond to in under five minutes, and never more than once a week. He always answers.

I guess what I'm struggling with is how vague he can be, or how he doesnt explore some topics even though he will pounce on loads of other other things I say. It feels like being ignored, as Spangle has said. A couple of weeks ago I asked him if it was OK to message him out of session. He wouldn't give a yes or no, just some vague answer about how he's old school and prefers things to happen in session. I asked him why he became a therapist and how he could be empathetic all day long, and he kept giving lame answers and saying he thought it was my way to avoiding talking about an issue until I got snippy and told him that he saw dodging the question. I have mentioned wanting to hug him several times, and have taken to clutching a cushion to my stomach every session to feel warmth and he never talks about it. I just sit in awkward silence. I shook his hand at the end of one session and it was never mentioned again.

We even had a whole session on our relationship, completely brought up and then led by him after the session I'd been most emotional. I argued therapy could never be intimate because intimacy requires two people, and how it's hard to share things with him because at the end of the day I don't know him. I felt strangely at peace at the end, though nothing was resolved, and he told me that "perhaps I need to bring less of the counselor and more of the human to sessions." But the only thing that I feel has really changed is that he has stopped wearing suits and now wears sweaters to session.

Having some actual words to address this with him would be helpful, as I feel a bit beat down. Something like, "Hey fellow human..."

[Wonderfalls]

Some (disjointed) opinions:

You say you've had 4 other therapists which I think plays into your keeping him. My former therapist was a no touching guy (though I never asked) and I got so used to it that when my first try-out new therapist hugged me without asking I was very uncomfortable. He got that by my reaction and asked the next time, which I also didn't like because it was awkward.

I think it is a good thing that you've developed a relationship with your therapist as a new beginning for you. I think it would help, rather than hurt your developing more feelings for others.

The questions you asked him were totally innocent on your part I agree, but I think they are personal--what he does when you're not with him, and his thoughts and feelings about his profession (and also, by extension, his past).

I never met my therapist off duty in 15 years but if I had I would have said "Hi" first and kept going. I'm almost positive he would have followed my lead but not initiated. He also didn't contact me but let me call him. I adored him but I wouldn't have wanted him to text or call me out of session; it would have felt very intrusive.

I'm now on my third new tryout therapist. From your description I would definitely keep yours if I had him.

[AllHeart]

Sounds like this t has rigid boundaries and needs to take time to explain them to you. What’s concerning is that this t let you leave a session shaking in fear. He should have taken the time to make sure you were ok before you even left. What is his level of experience? Maybe asking him to clearly define the boundaries will eliminate some stress for you.

[DP_2017]

I guess I mis-read, I thought somewhere you had mentioned the friend like desire or feeling

Anyway,no need to feel sad for me. I have a dog, my best friend and some good online friends, I don't NEED more friends, I just know him enough to know we would be good friends and we more than just a hour a week, in fact my sessions are usually 90 min.

Just wanted to clairify that my desire to be friend with him isn't because I want a friend, its because I think he and I would be good friends and its foolish to throw away such an awesome connection.

[Fernwehxx]

Hm, im not American. And what you describe in your first post sounds like a normal t-client relationship.
I would never expect outside contact, no matter hoe messed up I leave the office. If I met my therapist somewhere, if smile at her to acknowledge her, but id leave it up to her to decide if she would say something or choose to ignire me. Id love for her to interact. But if not, I'd tell myself its fine. Why would I expect any text? If its important, I'd mention it in the next session.

So, having said this, I niw got a very awesome therapist who even tells me things about herself if I ask. I love her for it, and I am starving for a deeper connection. Id live to be frienda with her, and for the first time, I am fully opening up in therapy. I want her to know me. I trust her to handle my darkest issues.
I love the connection, and I appreciate its deeper than in my home country. Not sure if all of it is cultural. I'm sure its a matter of therapist personality and character, too.

I kind of understand that my attachment is strong. I understand she is my therapist, and I may never get from her what I am starving for. On the other hand, I know she is helping me more than anyone ever has, and that's a good thing. In the end, all this may tell ir teach me more about my relationships with people in general. I hardly hace my friends, but even if trabsference is happening herw, I have decided to embrace it and continue with a great therapy.

Its no reason for me to doubt therapy being the right way.
Talk to him about his boundaries. Knowing may help you understand and change what you expect.

[tomatenoir]

Originally Posted by AllHeart

Sounds like this t has rigid boundaries and needs to take time to explain them to you. What’s concerning is that this t let you leave a session shaking in fear. He should have taken the time to make sure you were ok before you even left. What is his level of experience? Maybe asking him to clearly define the boundaries will eliminate some stress for you.

Sorry to drag this out of the past....

He's been practising for 8 years now. I don't have qualms with his competency. He makes what I would consider to be the occasional slip up, but I think he's very good at his job, generally speaking.

A month ago I sent him an email after a session where I was struggling to put my thoughts together, mostly around how I feel robotic and how I feel that everyone, including him, is inauthentic. I told him he didn't need to respond. He wrote me back, but then said that, in the spirit of authenticity, he wanted to let me know he doesn't interact with clients outside sessions. I told him he's always been vague about what's OK and what isn't, and he needs to be direct. He said let's discuss it next session.

We did. He couldn't say it straight, but I put it in to words which he then agreed to. No hugs allowed. No texts allowed. No emails allowed.

I feel cut off at the knees. I had somewhat begun to trust him but now I am very guarded in sessions -- can you really trust someone who says no to a hug with someone who's opened themselves up so fully for five months? I've tried to tell myself therapy is a professional relationship, there shouldn't be hugs...but I can't do that anymore. Therapy is personal, and I feel connected and calmer to a person when there's touch. I don't want to sleep with him. I just want to feel human.

And I feel just plain annoyed about his response to texting and emailing -- I contacted him maybe once every other week, and nothing would take him more than two minutes to reply to. And some of it has been useful to me -- it's how I came up with a list of goals for goodness sakes!

He told me to <i>imagine</i> I was writing to him, but not send it. Just makes me feel even more disconnected and bad at the whole human interaction thing.

Any advice? Your responses were very helpful last time I was here...

[cinnamon_roll]

Does your T have psychoanalytical training? A lot of those would quite often keep very rigid boundaries. And wouldn't budge.

With regard to the "robot"-feeling, shutting out the emotions. I can totally identify with that. For me, the challenge lies in learning to feel again, to *allow* myself to have emotions and to feel them as well and, last but not least, to express them, hopefully in a somewhat adequate way...

This can be tricky, since for me, a lot of emotional stuff comes delayed. Which means when the situation itself is over and I'm "safe". Sometimes this can be hours later, not so long ago this even could be days later.

With one of my former Ts I had an arrangement, that I could send her an email and tell her what's been coming up in between sessions. She wouldn't reply indepth, just acknowledge that she's got the email and that we can pick things up in the next session. I found this helpful, because otherwise I would sit in the next session and don't feel anything, wouldn't be able to (emotionally) connect to what's been happening. And T being in the picture helped since she could ask the right questions and nudge me a little bit to go down that "rabbit hole" again.

Last T had a "no email" rule except for organizational stuff. She said she wanted me to learn to bring those things up in session. Directly. And face to face. To hold on to the emotions. This proved to be difficult. Especially in the beginning I found it really hard to hold on to the connection I felt in the session. It seemed that emailing former T inbetween (not each week, but maybe every 2-3 weeks or so) helped me to hold on to her "presence" in my mind). I started writing down notes of whats been going on in the session and afterwards, reading those notes right before the next session helped me to find an emotional connection again to what's been happening.

Both Ts would never contact me inbetween sessions unless I contacted them first, except when they had to cancel a session due to being ill.

I'm sorry that you're struggeling with this right now. Maybe it would help to talk in session how this makes you feel? It might help you to get down to the underlying issues, since I believe that struggles with a particular form of a setting isn't so much a "problem" in itself but rather a "symptom" for a deep emotional need and/or longing...

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

Hi, nice to meet everyone. Sorry this is long; I appreciate all advice and would especially love to hear from anyone who has gone through anything similar. TL/DR: If your problem is making human connections, is therapy the right place to work on that?

I've been seeing a therapist for three months now. I came in for a specific issue -- which we mostly focused on for the first two months, and which he has helped enormously with -- then I decided to carry on with the intention of trying to solve longterm issues I've had. For what it's worth, I think my therapist is competent, intelligent, professional and empathetic.

The longterm issue I have is opening up emotionally or feeling empathy -- I act and think like a robot. I suffered with fairly severe depression/anxiety/chronic unemployment and underemployment/bottom of the barrel self-esteem until my mid-twenties, (I'm early thirties now) and have basically shut down because any more hurt would have meant I killed myself. When I mostly shut off and saw other people as inanimate objects and stopped trying to win my mother's love and approval, my life came together in a way it never had before. I have a husband and one close friend I am open with, but 95% of the time I feel nothing. I vastly prefer my emotionally dead life to my previously emotional one -- I don't feel things, but I don't live in a torture chamber all day long anymore and I can actually function in the world.

I am now having trouble, because after my therapist helped me so much with my initial issue, I have, quite understandably, developed warm and caring feelings towards him. I basically feel like a human around him, feel like I did around people ten years ago. But in the last couple of weeks I've began to wonder whether therapy is the right way to solve my problem of making human connections, because a therapist can't ever be 'all in' with a client, or have a real relationship with a client, nor would I expect them to.

There have been a couple of times the limits of therapy have rubbed themselves in my face. Once was when we discussed something that upset me to the point I left the office literally shaking in fear, largely due to him charging ahead too quickly into a sensitive issue (the only time I think he has made a mistake), and there was no quick text saying "Are you OK?" I wouldn't normally expect him to contact me outside sessions, but on this occasion it felt cold, harsh and uncaring. The next session he began talking about how upset I'd been at the last session before I even sat down -- the human in him actually seemed desperate to discuss it. But he didn't comment when I said I'd been quite upset with him, he just sat there -- no apology, not even an I'm sorry you feel this way.

Then this weekend, I bumped into him at a festival. He didn't acknowledge me (and that makes complete sense to me, I wouldn't want him to), but the fact that he didn't text to say "Just want to say I saw you but couldn't say hi due to confidentiality reasons. Let's catch up Wed" hurts like hell. Especially since one of my biggest issues and reason for shutting down is people ignoring me. It made me feel invisible and like I've stupidly developed affection for someone who is ultimately unavailable for a two-way emotional relationship.

There are also a couple of times I've asked him generic questions (or questions he could give a generic answer to) about himself, like why he became a therapist or what he's doing on the weekend, mostly because I'm curious and just like him (or at least, therapist him), and he's done everything he could to dodge the question. I've also told him a couple of times I'd like to hug him, but he never stops to discuss this. I was going so mad with wanting any kind of physical touch but not wanting to ask for a hug (because I think it's unfair to ask someone who's providing a professional service for physical intimacy) that I asked to shake his hand. He did, but he looked uncomfortable as anything. And the fact he's never brought it up or shows no inclination to ask if I'd like a handshake or a squeeze on the arm just makes me feel like I did around people ten years ago -- defective and not worth being considered human or cared for -- but now I'm paying for the privilege.

Do you think it's worth leaving therapy over this? I've considered changing therapists, but for all the above he's very good at what he does, he mostly understands me, and he's an exceptional listener. I had one therapist years ago who was good though not as good as him, but I never remember feeling this way with her. The three other therapists I've had were useless or didn't care about me.

And I don't know if changing would even help, because I'm from a country (and had past therapy) where people are more open emotionally.

Anyways, thanks for reading if you made it this far; would love to hear thoughts and suggestions. I'm starting to wonder if joining a club would be more helpful.

Thank you for sharing this post. I identify with it deeply. It cuts to the quick of the therapy relationship, and what makes it so anguishing at times. I think about it in terms of the suspension of disbelief we all do to enter the world of a movie or a book. We take a leap of faith, we suspend our disbelief that the relationship isnt real and is just a paid service bc it feels real. In order to get any benefit, we must participate in it "as if" it is real. It is an "as if" relationship. It is a rehearsal for a real relationship, yet is not one.

The reason they do not allow hugs( mine keeps a 3 foot rule!) or texts/emails is to remind us it is not a social relationship, and has no replica in the real world. My T is fond of listing all the things therapy relationships are not: not spouse, not friend, not lover. I fid it interesting he lists such intense relationships rather than not doctor etc.

The times it hurts my feelings are similar to yours, times in which the spell is broken. I have major trauma I kept secret all my life. My T pushes hard for these confidences. Then he says time is up, and leaves me to cry for two hours in his stairwell when I've told him how I am a team leader and need to be able to put myself back together and not be left in floods of tears. This doesnt happen often, but when it does I feel like you describe. The lack of a text or any show of concern is a slap in the face and says hey you are just my job. It doesnt matter how bad things are, he will not check on me. Is that a philosophy or do they just not care?

Only the T's know if there is a wellspring of real caring or if it is mainly work they are called to do, but work they leave in the office. My T has little kids, and he claims when his work day is done, he doesnt give psychology another thought. Once though, when we had our only "fight" that tool us both by surprise and he lost his composure, he said he thought about it all weekend.

I am where you are, I wish I had more to give. It is so painful. I think about quitting too bc of this issue- how painful. I told him once his going on vacations so carefree and coming back mistuned to the severity of the topic feel like a frat boy not calling the next day and instead texting C Ya wouldn't want 2 B ya. That did get his attention, and he immediately said he was open to ending sessions differently and he was sorry for leaving me without a net when I was one of his patients who works truly hard. This lasted about three sessions, then he forgot.

[tomatenoir]

Thank you both. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who only ends up feeling stuff hours, sometimes days later. And even then, I can't identify the emotion half the time. I generally only feel something when he repeats what I'm saying back to me. Then I think, "Oh! That's really sad!" I don't know what to make of it.

SalingerEsme, I completely understand about needing to be made whole by the end of session. I have a job that requires a ridiculous amount of precision -- I can't afford being left unable to function. And I'm overcoming a driving phobia too -- driving to his house when I'm in a good frame of mind is tricky enough.

Cinnamon, it's very helpful to hear your experience around emails -- I'm very similar. I often feel nothing in session, so the ability to write when I DO feel something is enormously helpful. I didn't even want him to reply or read them outside of session, which is why I don't understand why he won't accept them. It's genuinely been helpful to me, and I don't think five minutes of admin every other week is unreasonable. That's most jobs. If my clients at work only wanted five minutes of my time every other week I'd be over the moon.

I suppose it comes down to a feeling that, as usual, nearly everyone else around me gets to decide how they want to arrange their life, decide how our relationship will go, and I just have to accept it. "Knock on the door on the hour". "I don't do hugs". "I don't offer texts". "I won't tell you anything about me". "You're completely distraught -- see you next week." He is a psychotherapist, by the way, total blank slate. I managed to find a few things online about him that he doesn't know I know; it's stopped me from going nuts wondering who he is.

I don't see the point bringing up these things yet again in session. He won't budge.

Esme, it's interesting that you see the therapy relationship as a practice relationship for real world relationship. I don't see it that way. For me it's a singular kind of relationship, but it's not a fake one. I've sort of come to the point where I think it's fighting against human nature to say the therapist-client relationship is purely professional. I think it falls somewhere in-between professional and personal. As such, I think it's a relationship that isn't going to be totally clear cut, and where people will need to bend to some degree. That's where I am now -- if my therapist can't bend whatsoever, even on simple things that I tell him are helpful to me, how could he possibly care about me, or even understand how to help me? Like, why am I paying this guy?

I'm considering changing therapists/quitting too. I sent an email to another therapist saying I was looking for someone open to the occasional email and the occasional hug, but I haven't heard back from them. Maybe I'll try someone else.

I have affection for my therapist, and I would miss him, but I know that would pass in time. It's frustrating, because he's so bloody insightful -- but if I don't feel like I can trust him anymore none of that really matters.

Thank you for your posts. It's really nice to know there are other people out there who are struggling with the same things.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by tomatenoir

Thank you both. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who only ends up feeling stuff hours, sometimes days later. And even then, I can't identify the emotion half the time. I generally only feel something when he repeats what I'm saying back to me. Then I think, "Oh! That's really sad!" I don't know what to make of it.

That sounds so familiar. The T I had few years ago (the one who would allow e-mail) would actually actively help me to identify my feelings/emotions for myself. Also asking me all the time: What am I feeling? Whereabout in my body am I feeling what? The physical sensastion/s and the location/s in our body can actually give you some idea what the feeling/s are about.... Might be slightly different for everyone, ie fear for some is pressure in your chest/lung. For others it's a knot in the stomach etc.. But with time I actually developed some sort of map of my inner emotional landscape/s, which resulted in being more able to navigate those emotional states by myself.

My first T experience ever was in my mid 20s (more than 20 years ago). I didn't have clue about myself, my emotions, I was completely unable to get into my own emotions. I would actively avoid them at any cost. I kept begging this T to "help" me. I would just sit there and say nothing at all, or just do some chatting about everyday stuff. I would have needed at the time what the other T provided decades later: Help in "holding" my emotions, identifying those emotions, dealing with my emotions, and thus making the experience that my emotions won't kill me, that they might not be so dangerous after all...
But I wasn't able to specifically ask for that, and the very first T didn't realize that her approach wasn't really working for me...

Yes, your T can be a good and professional T, yet at the same time he can be the wrong T *for you* at this moment in time. Because you might need something else, something your T is not willing (or unable) to provide.
And I think, asking for some emotional grounding after an upsetting session isn't asking for too much.

For me it's a singular kind of relationship, but it's not a fake one. I've sort of come to the point where I think it's fighting against human nature to say the therapist-client relationship is purely professional. I think it falls somewhere in-between professional and personal.

Add some transference you got a mix that makes this relationship so very complicated.... For me, a lot of my (emotional) needs that surface in therapy are very early needs that weren't met for some reason or other. Because my parents weren't (emotionally) available, and now this T is for me, my little warped brain transfers those unmet needs onto T. Which might explain why those wishes and desires sometimes can get so incredibly strong.

I'm considering changing therapists/quitting too. I sent an email to another therapist saying I was looking for someone open to the occasional email and the occasional hug, but I haven't heard back from them. Maybe I'll try someone else.

That seems like a good idea. Maybe if you give a thought or two about what it is what you really need/want from a T, on a emotional level (and not just email or a hug...) you might be able to ask potential Ts the right sort of questions in order to find one who is a better fit...

I have affection for my therapist, and I would miss him, but I know that would pass in time. It's frustrating, because he's so bloody insightful -- but if I don't feel like I can trust him anymore none of that really matters.

The thing for me is, it is not so much about insight and analysis, for me it's more about putting the emotional pieces together. And for me, the emotional jigsaw does have a different picture from the analytical, cognitive one. So for me the quest is to put those to pictures together and integrate them into some sort of new narration that incorporates both, the emotional and the analytical.
Not sure whether it makes any sense at all.

Wishing you all the best, c_r

[tomatenoir]

It makes complete sense. I'm also trying to hook the head and the heart together.

I have similar issues to you regarding my parents. They're good and kind people, who provided for me materially, but I'm now realising they didn't really support me emotionally. If I told my mom I was feeling something that would require her to be emotionally supportive, she would tell me I wasn't feeling that or that I was being ridiculous or send me to my room. My dad had an affair, I was still upset after two months, so she sent ME to therapy. If I had a feeling, she would call my therapist and tell her to tell me to behave. My mom didn't want a child -- she wanted a child who was a successful adult.

Funny thing is I'm moderately successful now, but that's because I did things that gave me a sense of purpose which she completely saw as wasteful (theatre gave me confidence, teaching in Asia fed my sense of adventure, insisting I go out with friends instead of sit contentedly like a doll on the sofa means I didn't end up socially inept, like her). It annoys me that she thinks she can step in now to be the supportive, proud mom, after I did everything without her help.

Thank you so much, cinnamon. I'm going to interview a few therapists, and see if I feel any better. I don't really know what I'm looking for, but something doesn't feel right with this guy any longer. At the very least, it will make me feel like I'm back in the driver's seat.

Thanks again.

[SalingerEsme]

Esme, it's interesting that you see the therapy relationship as a practice relationship for real world relationship. I don't see it that way. For me it's a singular kind of relationship, but it's not a fake one. I've sort of come to the point where I think it's fighting against human nature to say the therapist-client relationship is purely professional. I think it falls somewhere in-between professional and personal. As such, I think it's a relationship that isn't going to be totally clear cut, and where people will need to bend to some degree. That's where I am now -- if my therapist can't bend whatsoever, even on simple things that I tell him are helpful to me, how could he possibly care about me, or even understand how to help me? Like, why am I paying this guy?

I like this. It gave me lots to ponder. I am divorced and have a serious BF now, and I don't consider it rehearsal in a larger sense but in tiny ways. This maybe is because I am new to therapy , though it has been a year now, and this is my only therapist. He is the one who told me well the therapy relationship is unique because it is "artificial " and a rehersal and a reparative relationship. I wonder though if you are more right than he. It feels real; we affect each other. So it is partially, probably real. It is such a strange job, when you think about all the one way intimacy being more than that, having components from both people. My T's wife is quite possessive of him, and I really see why ( should I know that? Nope. ) . His 3 foot rule not withstanding, what if he does love or care for some of his patients while taking about their deep secrets. How does that resonate into his marriage and personal life. I do think there is a profession-wide stance that there are no feelings from the therapist to the client that aren't sort of under control, but human nature being what it is, that's unlikely. For me I engage "top down" thinking as much as I can. I try to walk the line between experiencing this deep intimacy of eye contact and empathy in this office, while also understanding real intimacy is in my real life and his in his except inside the moment or the fifty minutes. I have never asked for a hug etc, because I understand it as a larger protection my T put in place with his wife in mind, his professional feeling about himself. I saw this beautiful 25 year old leave the building a few days ago- I dont have a jealousy about that, but neither would I want BF hugging her while she cried to be honest.

" What is a moment anyway / but a thing made entirely of its own vanishing?" Dean Young

[tomatenoir]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

I like this. It gave me lots to ponder. I am divorced and have a serious BF now, and I don't consider it rehearsal in a larger sense but in tiny ways. This maybe is because I am new to therapy , though it has been a year now, and this is my only therapist. He is the one who told me well the therapy relationship is unique because it is "artificial " and a rehersal and a reparative relationship. I wonder though if you are more right than he. It feels real; we affect each other. So it is partially, probably real. It is such a strange job, when you think about all the one way intimacy being more than that, having components from both people. My T's wife is quite possessive of him, and I really see why ( should I know that? Nope. ) . His 3 foot rule not withstanding, what if he does love or care for some of his patients while taking about their deep secrets. How does that resonate into his marriage and personal life. I do think there is a profession-wide stance that there are no feelings from the therapist to the client that aren't sort of under control, but human nature being what it is, that's unlikely. For me I engage "top down" thinking as much as I can. I try to walk the line between experiencing this deep intimacy of eye contact and empathy in this office, while also understanding real intimacy is in my real life and his in his except inside the moment or the fifty minutes. I have never asked for a hug etc, because I understand it as a larger protection my T put in place with his wife in mind, his professional feeling about himself. I saw this beautiful 25 year old leave the building a few days ago- I dont have a jealousy about that, but neither would I want BF hugging her while she cried to be honest.

" What is a moment anyway / but a thing made entirely of its own vanishing?" Dean Young

Three-foot rule? Does he have a measuring stick he extends from his couch to yours? LOL

I like the idea that therapy can help rehearse some of the tinier things, I can understand that. But entire relationships? Nope, don't buy it. Name one other relationship that is like a client-therapist relationship...

I, like you, completely understand my therapist's no-hug policy on an intellectual level. On an emotional level, I don't. And as it's the emotional part of me that needs serious work, a 'no' to an expressed emotional need is hard to deal with.

But perhaps I struggle most with the fact that he seems to think that a hug is this risque decision, while a no-hug policy is this passive, safe, neutral choice. It isn't. Both carry some risk. And his 'no' decision has more or less destroyed my ability to talk to him. It also hurts that he never brings it up, like I must have just forgotten all about this intense need I spoke to him about for two whole sessions and must now be fine. BAH.

[Moment]

This is what jumps out to me:

<<nearly everyone else around me gets to decide how they want to arrange their life, decide how our relationship will go, and I just have to accept it>>

THIS seems like a very important thing to discuss with your therapist. Personally, I find it freaky how my feelings towards my therapist mirror feelings I have in the real world towards other people. What is most useful for me is to identify those feelings and talk about them with him.

You can go looking for another therapist, but I can guarantee that every single therapist will disappoint you in one way or another, because every human being will. The fact is, you say this guy has helped you a lot, is professional, empathetic, etc.

You're saying he won't ever budge so what's the point. Is that really true? Or is that what you have decided, based on your past experiences? Could you say that same statement about your parents? If so, you have to ask yourself if what you are saying is really true or if you're deciding, in advance, what the outcome will be. I can tell you from my own experience with other people that I used to give up pretty quickly, far more quickly than I'd give up now.

There is no reason you can't discuss things over and over again. That's a lot of the work of therapy. If you keep talking with him, you guys might be able to find some way that works for both of you. If you just walk away, you never will. I have had seemingly intractable conflicts with therapists that we did manage to resolve. To me, that seemed like the most important work of therapy.

In the tiny stage that is the therapy room, the therapist must play many different roles--be a stand-in for your parents, your friends, your siblings, your lovers, your coworkers. The reason therapists maintain some distance is so that they don't foreclose any of these options. There have been many times I've wished my therapist would hug me, etc. I'm glad he didn't. Without the safe boundaries of the therapy room, we never could have made as much progress. And yes, there were times that I left session very upset, sad, crying, etc. And there was no contact until the next session. I know that he did think of me, but he was holding the boundaries firm to protect our relationship.

I personally think 3 months is kind of a critical time in therapy. Whatever initial crisis has brought a person to therapy is (hopefully) resolved. A person has to decide if they are going to go deeper. And also, if you want to change, you have to change behavior. You have to keep complaining about something, when you'd normally stop. Or confess a feeling that you normally wouldn't confess. Or scream and shout, when normally you wouldn't. Having conflict with your therapist is *totally normal.* I would say in any therapy relationship, if there wasn't some conflict going on, then the relationship has probably stagnated. I think talking to your therapist about your feelings about the limitations of the therapy relationship can be hugely productive. I know it is hard.

[SalingerEsme]

Moment, insightful post!

[tomatenoir]

Originally Posted by Moment

This is what jumps out to me:

<<nearly everyone else around me gets to decide how they want to arrange their life, decide how our relationship will go, and I just have to accept it>>

THIS seems like a very important thing to discuss with your therapist. Personally, I find it freaky how my feelings towards my therapist mirror feelings I have in the real world towards other people. What is most useful for me is to identify those feelings and talk about them with him.

You can go looking for another therapist, but I can guarantee that every single therapist will disappoint you in one way or another, because every human being will. The fact is, you say this guy has helped you a lot, is professional, empathetic, etc.

You're saying he won't ever budge so what's the point. Is that really true? Or is that what you have decided, based on your past experiences? Could you say that same statement about your parents? If so, you have to ask yourself if what you are saying is really true or if you're deciding, in advance, what the outcome will be. I can tell you from my own experience with other people that I used to give up pretty quickly, far more quickly than I'd give up now.

There is no reason you can't discuss things over and over again. That's a lot of the work of therapy. If you keep talking with him, you guys might be able to find some way that works for both of you. If you just walk away, you never will. I have had seemingly intractable conflicts with therapists that we did manage to resolve. To me, that seemed like the most important work of therapy.

In the tiny stage that is the therapy room, the therapist must play many different roles--be a stand-in for your parents, your friends, your siblings, your lovers, your coworkers. The reason therapists maintain some distance is so that they don't foreclose any of these options. There have been many times I've wished my therapist would hug me, etc. I'm glad he didn't. Without the safe boundaries of the therapy room, we never could have made as much progress. And yes, there were times that I left session very upset, sad, crying, etc. And there was no contact until the next session. I know that he did think of me, but he was holding the boundaries firm to protect our relationship.

I personally think 3 months is kind of a critical time in therapy. Whatever initial crisis has brought a person to therapy is (hopefully) resolved. A person has to decide if they are going to go deeper. And also, if you want to change, you have to change behavior. You have to keep complaining about something, when you'd normally stop. Or confess a feeling that you normally wouldn't confess. Or scream and shout, when normally you wouldn't. Having conflict with your therapist is *totally normal.* I would say in any therapy relationship, if there wasn't some conflict going on, then the relationship has probably stagnated. I think talking to your therapist about your feelings about the limitations of the therapy relationship can be hugely productive. I know it is hard.

This is a hugely insightful, moment. It's funny you brought up what you did, because after writing my earlier post I'd decided I'd talk to him about the fact that, while I can make internal changes, I don't feel like I can effect change on the actual world. I haven't seen him since mid December as he's on holiday, but I see him tomorrow, and it's what I plan to talk about. If I get gutsy I'll let him know the world includes him and his overly rigid rules.

But I'm still going to look for another therapist. It's partly to feel like I have some power, not just him, but it's also because I've worked before with another therapist who was helpful (though not as helpful) AND gave me the occasional hug. If someone hugs me, I get a sense of how much I can trust them. People are very good at hiding true intentions with words, but they're lousy at hiding their feelings when a hug is attached -- if someone is neutral or dislikes you, you can feel it straight away, I think.

I've talked to him three times about hugs and why I want to hug him.The first time he dodged the question, the second time he told me he'd talk about it in session, and the third time he said no and that he'd spoken to his supervisor too. Why bring it up when I already know the answer and know I'll only be rejected and feel like an unlovable, untouchable, inhuman piece of crap all over again? Not all pain has purpose.

What's that saying? Try, try, try again. Then give up. Don't be a damn fool about it.