[TrailRunner14]

Is there really an attachment type for every child to their mother?

Can there be "no" attachment?

Is that the most lonely feeling there is?

The mother is the first person an infant encounters for attachment. Safety. Connection.

Can it be that if that connection is not a safe one, the infant does not attach with anyone?

Does that leave the infant, 53 years later, still feeling the absence of it?

What does that do to the other relationships in your life?

There's not ground to build trust on with anyone, if you have nothing to base it on.

Real safety.

When you do realize that it just wasn't there, and it was disorganized or just not there and you feel the hollowness of it -

What do you do with it?

I've pushed it aside and tried to make it right for so long.

It feels like the truth brings more distress than comfort.

This is going somewhere, and I know it, it's just really uncomfortable right now.

Thank you for hearing me.

There's disorganized attachment from abuse

I believe it can affect someone in profound ways.

I think we all have attached to some kind of mother figure even if it was before we can remember. I dont think a child could survive if it didnt attach somehow even if a very unhealthy attachment.

I have an ambivalent attachment style... come here... go away kinda thing. I have never had a safe attachment. Schema Therapy deals with helping the inner vulnerable child to have a safe attachment to then be able to attach to others healthily. Maybe look in to that. But its not for the faint hearted...

Schema therapy has been used for OSDD and DID as well (though it isn't specially formulated for DID. Some people feel schema modes overly simpify alters) where one has multiple "inner children". Three of my friends (with varying forms of DID / OSDD) use it.

They talk about using their adult alter(s) to reparent the children. For some, the therapist models how to first (like with me who doesn't have alters), then the adult self(selves) learn and take over the job.

There's not ground to build trust on with anyone, if you have nothing to base it on.

Real safety.

When you do realize that it just wasn't there, and it was disorganized or just not there and you feel the hollowness of it -

What do you do with it?

I had to start with building trust brick by brick with my therapist and safe others. I'm very lucky to have found a loving and supportive partner who has his own abuse history.

There were many sessions where we would have to rebuild trust because it faded outside of session. My therapist proved to be sage over and over and over and over again.

[toomanycats]

What you're describing sounds like "Avoidant" attachment style.

[here today]

Thanks so much, Trailrunner. That doesn't describe what my early experience was like but I can well believe it was yours. Good, I suppose, that you can now put it into words.

I can identify with the lack of a solid ground. Mine was more fragmented. (Diagnosed with DDNOS 8 years ago, that would probably be OSDD now.)

A couple of years ago I dug deep trying to find love or joy or something that seemed prior to loving or awareness of individual people, and did find a "joie de vivre" that I have tried to bring back up into my relationship and living in the world. I found it but it's still not very connected with me and the world. I guess these things take time? It's psychological but the connection with the biological? That could take the time?

Anyway, it's very reassuring, almost "grounding" to read about your experience. Somewhat similar, though not the same. Still, reading it, I don't feel quite so alone with my stuff.

[AllHeart]

Here's a quiz to help determine your attachment style:
https://dianepooleheller.com/attachment-test/

[feileacan]

Yeah, I'm wondering about that too. When I think about what I understand as "attachment" I would claim that I wasn't attached to anyone when I was a child. I've come to accept though that no attachment doesn't really mean no attachment. There is still something there, the lack of attachment perhaps? Because this "no attachment" thing is not neutral, it is negative, it feels like a hole. Negative of an attachment, like a negative of a photo?

My attachment style as a child could have been classified as avoidant and I am very avoidant even now, even schizoid. But as I said, I consider my experience not as the absence of an attachment, which I imagine would feel neutral but rather somehow turned upside down, into something important that is missing and that leaves a hole.

What do I do with that? I go to therapy, into very intensive one, 4 times per week psychoanalysis. I see its potential to me. Most of the times I don't feel it as a bottomless pit anymore as it used to feel. I also see some hints that I might even learn to enjoy other people's company

ETA:
I've also struggled with the thought that how I'm supposed to build trust and stuff when I don't have anything to build it on. I still couldn't explain it but I guess if there is something hidden inside you, something that has been kept intact, then it might be possible to find it and build on that. Unfortunately, I don't have any guidelines of how to find out if you have something and if you have then how to start using it. I think I found this something for me in my dreams because in my dreams I have perceived the world in a way that is foreign and unknown to me while being awake. Don't really know how to use it though, although I guess I'm already using it somehow without knowing how I'm doing it and how I got there.

[kecanoe]

I hear you, TR.

I also was unable to have a healthy attachment as a newborn and infant. I still struggle with this today in my relationships and I am still in therapy. T3 suggests that I hold the belief that I don't deserve to live; possibly that belief was formed while I was still in the womb.

Regardless of when it started, I do feel the lack of attachment still. I'm 54 (I had to stop and calculate my age-which shows how dissociated I can be from just typing the above). So yes, the truth of that is quite distressing, and maybe worse than not knowing.

Since you quote Brennan Manning, I offer this; if it doesn't work for you, then please feel free to ignore. I think the only place we can go with this is to know that we were knit together in the womb by God and that God knew us then. And if our God is a God of love, then we were clearly created in/by love. That is the only place that I know of where I can ground my trust and hope.

Originally Posted by kecanoe

I hear you, TR.

I also was unable to have a healthy attachment as a newborn and infant. I still struggle with this today in my relationships and I am still in therapy. T3 suggests that I hold the belief that I don't deserve to live; possibly that belief was formed while I was still in the womb.

Regardless of when it started, I do feel the lack of attachment still. I'm 54 (I had to stop and calculate my age-which shows how dissociated I can be from just typing the above). So yes, the truth of that is quite distressing, and maybe worse than not knowing.

Since you quote Brennan Manning, I offer this; if it doesn't work for you, then please feel free to ignore. I think the only place we can go with this is to know that we were knit together in the womb by God and that God knew us then. And if our God is a God of love, then we were clearly created in/by love. That is the only place that I know of where I can ground my trust and hope.

Wow. I, too, have a belief I don't deserve to live, for a variety of reasons.

That part about god knitting us in the womb? When I was a teen and still a believer, I told a significant adult that belief of not deserving to live. She shared with me that verse of being known while being knit in the womb, being fearfully and wonderfully made.

Although I no longer believe, I carry that significant, cherished memory with me.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

I think we all have attached to some kind of mother figure even if it was before we can remember. I dont think a child could survive if it didnt attach somehow even if a very unhealthy attachment.


I have an ambivalent attachment style... come here... go away kinda thing. I have never had a safe attachment. Schema Therapy deals with helping the inner vulnerable child to have a safe attachment to then be able to attach to others healthily. Maybe look in to that. But its not for the faint hearted...

Thank you! I’m going to look into Schema Therapy. My counselor uses different types of approaches and in a way he has helped different parts of me care for and encourage other parts. I’m not sure if that’s the same thing or not.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by QuietMind

I had to start with building trust brick by brick with my therapist and safe others. I'm very lucky to have found a loving and supportive partner who has his own abuse history.

There were many sessions where we would have to rebuild trust because it faded outside of session. My therapist proved to be sage over and over and over and over again.

The trust that I feel with my counselor, is something I have never experienced with any other person. Actually, once I realized the relationship I was experiencing with him was real (professional, client relationship) it really brought to light how messed up my idea of what trust in a real relationship really was.

I’m so happy for you, that you have such a supportive partner. That has to give you much strength and courage to move forward.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by AllHeart

Here's a quiz to help determine your attachment style:

https://dianepooleheller.com/attachment-test/

Thanks for the quiz!

According to the therapists I've seen, my insecure attachment started when I came out of the womb crying and didn't stop for almost 10 months. (Well, I cried 14 to 20 hours a day, so I did stop now and again. I didn't sleep much, either - most babies sleep more hours than the hours I spent wailing) It took them 10 months to figure out what was wrong with me and help. So basically the world has never been a safe place for me, because I was born in pain and it took 10 months before someone took it away. A baby just feels "I'm hurting. My mother is there. I'm hurting." and thus, everything is associated with pain and thus nothing with safety.

Something like that.

Of course, the pain was only the start of things going wrong. But it sure didn't help.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by feileacan

Yeah, I'm wondering about that too. When I think about what I understand as "attachment" I would claim that I wasn't attached to anyone when I was a child. I've come to accept though that no attachment doesn't really mean no attachment. There is still something there, the lack of attachment perhaps? Because this "no attachment" thing is not neutral, it is negative, it feels like a hole. Negative of an attachment, like a negative of a photo?


My attachment style as a child could have been classified as avoidant and I am very avoidant even now, even schizoid. But as I said, I consider my experience not as the absence of an attachment, which I imagine would feel neutral but rather somehow turned upside down, into something important that is missing and that leaves a hole.


What do I do with that? I go to therapy, into very intensive one, 4 times per week psychoanalysis. I see its potential to me. Most of the times I don't feel it as a bottomless pit anymore as it used to feel. I also see some hints that I might even learn to enjoy other people's company


ETA:

I've also struggled with the thought that how I'm supposed to build trust and stuff when I don't have anything to build it on. I still couldn't explain it but I guess if there is something hidden inside you, something that has been kept intact, then it might be possible to find it and build on that. Unfortunately, I don't have any guidelines of how to find out if you have something and if you have then how to start using it. I think I found this something for me in my dreams because in my dreams I have perceived the world in a way that is foreign and unknown to me while being awake. Don't really know how to use it though, although I guess I'm already using it somehow without knowing how I'm doing it and how I got there.

Yeah. A hole describes what it feels like. A black bottomless hole.

It feels like something very important is missing and I’ve tried my whole life to find and comply to someone who could be the missing piece.

Not having that and trying to learn what a real relationship with trust and boundaries is, is like trying to read or do math problems and you don’t have any clue what numbers are or the alphabet is.

It’s something you want, desperately, but have no idea how to do it.

You want to be mad about it, but what benefit would that have?

I do agree that having no attachment would be some “form” of attachment, even though I can’t sort that out right now.

I can see your analogy of a negative in my mind.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by kecanoe

I hear you, TR.

I also was unable to have a healthy attachment as a newborn and infant. I still struggle with this today in my relationships and I am still in therapy. T3 suggests that I hold the belief that I don't deserve to live; possibly that belief was formed while I was still in the womb.

Regardless of when it started, I do feel the lack of attachment still. I'm 54 (I had to stop and calculate my age-which shows how dissociated I can be from just typing the above). So yes, the truth of that is quite distressing, and maybe worse than not knowing.

Since you quote Brennan Manning, I offer this; if it doesn't work for you, then please feel free to ignore. I think the only place we can go with this is to know that we were knit together in the womb by God and that God knew us then. And if our God is a God of love, then we were clearly created in/by love. That is the only place that I know of where I can ground my trust and hope.

I share your thought about not deserving to live in a kind of different way.

I’ve ALWAYS had this feeling that I don’t belong here.

I guess if I was not welcomed when I got here, that would make complete sense.

I am more of a trophy to my mom than a “me” because. I’m more of a “thing” to her than a person.

Thank you for reminding who really put me here. God has done amazing things in the past 5 years. I loose sight and remembrance of them when I get in hard places like this one.

Thank you!

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by Breadfish

According to the therapists I've seen, my insecure attachment started when I came out of the womb crying and didn't stop for almost 10 months. (Well, I cried 14 to 20 hours a day, so I did stop now and again. I didn't sleep much, either - most babies sleep more hours than the hours I spent wailing) It took them 10 months to figure out what was wrong with me and help. So basically the world has never been a safe place for me, because I was born in pain and it took 10 months before someone took it away. A baby just feels "I'm hurting. My mother is there. I'm hurting." and thus, everything is associated with pain and thus nothing with safety.

Something like that.

Of course, the pain was only the start of things going wrong. But it sure didn't help.

I'm so sorry you experienced that with no voice! It makes my heart sad for you.

(((warm hug)))

[TrailRunner14]

Thank you for your replies to this thread!

It was pretty raw when I posted it and I had just talked about it with my counselor. It has taken me a bit to settle myself with it.

The main question that is still on my mind is, “How could I have functioned all those years and never realized or acknowledged what it really is?”

I was on my way to my counselors office and it hit me out of nowhere that my mom didn’t feel “real” to me anymore. My brother doesn’t feel real to me either. We have never been close. He’s a “throw you under the bus” convince kind of person.

We talked about that after I got to his office and I could not verbalize what I was trying to say or explain.

I guess with the realization of dealing with not having a attachment with my mom, it maybe distances her from me trying to be what I could never achieve for her.

I don’t know, that sounds kind of twisted up.

Maybe it’s a good thing?

I don’t know.

It’s just been kind of “distancing” for me to sort through this.

Thank you again for your replies.

They helped me until I was good to reply.

ETA:

I wanted to add that my mom doesn’t look at me when she talks to me. It can be about anything and she is looking to the side of me or off in space.

If she does look at my face, it’s like she’s looking through me.

It’s like she doesn’t see me.

I’m not real and she’s looking right through me.

I just wanted to add that.

Dear TR,

My mother has her eyes glued to the TV when I try to talk to her. I'm sorry you know how painful it is not even have your existence acknowledged.

I think perhaps the distancing from your mother and brother could be a good thing. I used to devote a lot of time, effort, mental energy into trying to "prove myself worthy" to my family of origin. Especially my older sister who had a "get close, then ignore me" dynamic. I spent years and years and years chasing after her, unable to detach.

Though it was hard and still is painful, at some point the words of others about "don't cross the ocean for someone who won't jump a puddle for you". finally clicked. I started to begin to have supportive friends who WANTED me around and told me so. Who are committed to healing from their complex traumas and transforming the pain. Finally finally, I began to ACCEPT that my sister, my parents might never EVER change. I'm still working through that grief. That I might forever just be an afterthought. A trashcan to dump in and then discard until "needed" again.

“How could I have functioned all those years and never realized or acknowledged what it really is?”

Perhaps you had to dissociate away the pain of not mattering, of not being loved, of being neglected, of being abused. So that you could function, and stay alive.

Janina Fisher's book "healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors" talks about how we fragment in order to survive and function and reach adulthood.

The psyche is creative and works to survive.

I've long followed your posts, and should you feel comfortable, my inbox on PC is open to you should you want a listening ear.

[TrailRunner14]

This has really been with me and I’ve been looking for validation for it.

I found this and it speaks truth to me.

Just wanted to share it with you who have replied with understanding.

http://www.traumacenter.org/products...a_disorder.pdf

It’s some good information and validation for me.

Maybe it will be something for someone else.

Originally Posted by TrailRunner14

Is there really an attachment type for every child to their mother?

Can there be "no" attachment?

Is that the most lonely feeling there is?

The mother is the first person an infant encounters for attachment. Safety. Connection.

Can it be that if that connection is not a safe one, the infant does not attach with anyone?

Does that leave the infant, 53 years later, still feeling the absence of it?

What does that do to the other relationships in your life?

There's not ground to build trust on with anyone, if you have nothing to base it on.

Real safety.

When you do realize that it just wasn't there, and it was disorganized or just not there and you feel the hollowness of it -

What do you do with it?

I've pushed it aside and tried to make it right for so long.

It feels like the truth brings more distress than comfort.

This is going somewhere, and I know it, it's just really uncomfortable right now.

Thank you for hearing me.

I've been working on this for years. It still has a huge impact on me.
I was brought home to my adoptive mother and basically just left to sleep, shut down T says more than sleep. You were already suffering a trauma. She says you never woke up for feeds. T says "you learnt crying didn't get you anything"
The preverbal abandoned/neglect is very hard to begin to narrate. But I feel we've made in roads.
T says many in the position I was in become psychotic. I didn't. I split of parts of myself and created a way in my mind to survive.
I'm often fearful of the world around me. T says, that's part of what I split iof and projected out into the world experienced as coming back at me. A 1000 fold.
Seeing life in B/W thinking is an affect of extreme abandonment and neglect because we learn to split the "bad (m) other from the" good" (m) other. . I think that's the biggest mind %=+, when a 90% abusive care giver gives a glimmer of hope that the relationship coukd be better only to snatch that away again repeatedly. It means we begin to distrust what we think and feel. Be living there must be something wrong with me because to survive I need to project all my good qualities into the (m) other.

[Amyjay]

I don't believe I attached to anyone as an infant. T tells me some part of me must have but I don't believe that. I have used the parents for getting things I wanted or needed but I absolutely contest the idea that there was any form of emotional attachment with either of the parents.
It affects everything about my life, of course. I am unable to have a relationship with a human being. Nor do I want one.

[unaluna]

Good article, thanks. Ive read a lot of van der kolk, but i like the emphasis this article has on how new situations are often viewed as threatening, and how they can be mastered.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by Mouse_62

I've been working on this for years. It still has a huge impact on me.
I was brought home to my adoptive mother and basically just left to sleep, shut down T says more than sleep. You were already suffering a trauma. She says you never woke up for feeds. T says "you learnt crying didn't get you anything"
The preverbal abandoned/neglect is very hard to begin to narrate. But I feel we've made in roads.
T says many in the position I was in become psychotic. I didn't. I split of parts of myself and created a way in my mind to survive.
I'm often fearful of the world around me. T says, that's part of what I split iof and projected out into the world experienced as coming back at me. A 1000 fold.
Seeing life in B/W thinking is an affect of extreme abandonment and neglect because we learn to split the "bad (m) other from the" good" (m) other. . I think that's the biggest mind %=+, when a 90% abusive care giver gives a glimmer of hope that the relationship coukd be better only to snatch that away again repeatedly. It means we begin to distrust what we think and feel. Be living there must be something wrong with me because to survive I need to project all my good qualities into the (m) other.

I can relate to what you are saying.

Especially this.....

I think that's the biggest mind %=+, when a 90% abusive care giver gives a glimmer of hope that the relationship coukd be better only to snatch that away again repeatedly. It means we begin to distrust what we think and feel. Be living there must be something wrong with me because to survive I need to project all my good qualities into the (m) other.


This is so me, and it has bled off into any relationship I have attempted to have in my life.

It becomes immobilizing and you don't know which direction to go.

Fear that you can't be good enough or do good enough to be ok.

To me, from the things that I have read, it's soul murder

It's painful and it hurts.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by Amyjay

I don't believe I attached to anyone as an infant. T tells me some part of me must have but I don't believe that. I have used the parents for getting things I wanted or needed but I absolutely contest the idea that there was any form of emotional attachment with either of the parents.
It affects everything about my life, of course. I am unable to have a relationship with a human being. Nor do I want one.

Neither do I believe that I had an attachment.

I believe I had a desperate need and I aleterd myself to fit it.

I supplied the needs that were wanted by them so that I would feel safe.

I really don't really want the drain and work of having a relationship if it involves what it has in the past. It's truly draining and exhausting.

The dream to have a relationship with someone who truly cares about you and what you are about is a rainbow dream.

It does affect everything that you are. It brings all of my sensory emotions into hyperarousal and it's painful.

The thought of being with someone and feeling at peace is a dream.