In Session Today: Part IV

Preface: I know there's the potential for strong opinions about some of the things T said in today's session. I have decided to continue working with him for now. It's OK to comment on the session itself, if you like. But I respectfully ask for no negative judgment on my decision to keep working with him. Thank you.

T today. Sat down. He said he'd read the e-mail I'd sent (outlining a few things that were bothering me from previous session--I'd asked if I could send for him to read in advance). Where did I want to start? I said with the stone. Said how it bothered me that he'd called it "creepy" when I had said "weird." He said he misremembered what I'd said and that both words have the same meaning to him. I said that "creepy" has different connotation to me, suggests a threat. Mentioned the comparison to stealing trash from Bruce Willis' house. While he'd given stone to me. That it felt he was judging me for connecting it to him (instead of just room). That when I'd shared with him that I held the stone, I wanted him to say he was glad it was given me comfort. When instead, it turned into this whole other thing (I was crying during all of this).

He said that we had a professional relationship, so it felt weird that I was getting comfort from the stone. That I was seeing it as a part of him. I said I didn't really see it as "a part of him," just something he'd given me. That I had thought it was a way to hold a connection to him when I was out of session, how that's what I'd thought point of transitional object was. How, say, instead of contacting him, I could hold that. How he'd said in a previous session how some people can hold connection within them, while others need outside reminder. So I'd thought he understood. He said, "Well, at some point you have to learn to hold it inside." Me: "Right but I figured I'd work toward that?" I said how I'd gotten sense transitional objects were fairly common, but he seemed to doubt that. Like saying another T might not have given me one.

At that point, I took the stone from my purse and handed it to him, saying through tears, "Take your stone back, this is tainted now." He took it and put it on the notepad next to him.

I said how I'd told him right from the beginning that I had issues with transference for male authority figures (like ex-MC), that it was likely to develop for him, and was he OK with that? How I'd asked him multiple times during working together if he was still good with that, if he was willing to see it through, even though I knew he wasn't well trained in it. And now with him saying the day before that he felt transference for him would be unhealthy, it felt like a bait and switch. How I already had transference for him (and thought he knew that), so what the hell am I supposed to do now? (again, crying, hiding my face).

Then I said, "Maybe I should just leave, maybe this is pointless. I wanted you to say things, like you were sorry for what you said to me, that you were sorry you hurt me, but you're not saying any of it..." T: "But I was being honest with you." Me: "But it hurt, you were judging my feelings." T: "I could also say you were judging mine." Me: "But I thought therapy was supposed to be about the client's feelings, not the therapist's?" T: "I don't agree with that." Me: Uh. T, rather emphatically: "You affect me, [LT]." Me: ... T: "Maybe you don't think you do, but you do." Me: ...

He said he was trying to be honest with me on how it felt on his side. That other people in my life might not tell me that. But that he wanted me to see the effect that some things I could say or do could have on others. How maybe I could be pushing people away with things I did, but not realizing it. That in being honest with me, he hoped he could help my outside relationships.

I said how I wasn't really used to people in my past being honest with me, including my parents. And ex-MC probably wasn't, really, until the end. So maybe that's why T's being honest was so jarring to me? But that maybe it could ultimately help me. That I had to get used to it, because it could feel hurtful. T said he didn't intend to be hurtful or to be cruel, just honest. I said, "So like you wouldn't tell me, 'That outfit looks awful on you.'" He said no, but he'd tell me if I had toilet paper on my shoe. Or if I was on my way to job interview and wearing something inappropriate.

I brought up my concerns about his dealing with transference again. He said he was afraid I was just falling into another bad pattern with him like with ex-MC that would hurt me. That I was giving too much attention to him and that was taking away from other relationships in my life, like marriage and friendships. I just cried and said I felt judged. He asked what I meant by feeling judged, which...what? I tried to explain but not sure I was successful.

I said that I thought that the therapeutic relationship could act as a model for other relationships, like work through things in session, then could be applied elsewhere. I said I felt that had happened with me standing up more to ex-MC and ex-T, which led to me standing up more to H and others in my life. T (reflectively): "Oh. Huh."

I said maybe he misunderstood what I meant when I talked about working through transference. How really it was more that I wanted to be able to share with him certain feelings that came up related to him and examine them--but also didn't want to feel judged for them. That many feelings were clearly mostly from the past rather than really about him. That seemed a lightbulb moment for him. He said maybe he focused too much on how he felt about things I shared, that maybe we needed to give more time to where the stuff was coming from, like my past.

He said he felt he really didn't have that good of a sense of my childhood. I said maybe we had to delve more into that. He said he got a sense of trauma in there, from my reactions to things, but I hadn't mentioned anything major. I said that was interesting, because ex-T had said the same thing. I mentioned a couple types of things that had not happened to me. Said at one point, I'd made a list for T of smaller things that could maybe fall under that category. How we'd discussed them some one session, then...that night I learned ex-MC's wife had died, so that derailed that topic. How maybe I could find the list and bring it in for T. He said that sounded like a good idea. That maybe we could work more on past stuff to deal with transference. I agreed. He added that maybe my ongoing anxiety since childhood without having someone understanding it or providing relief could be a source of ongoing trauma. I said was interesting and something to explore.

Was near stopping time. T said he'd spent lots of time reading the e-mail and thinking about what I'd said. He said, "[LT], I care about how well you do." That he wanted me to find more peace in my relationships. I said I wanted that, too.

He asked how I felt about things. I said I felt I wanted to continue working with him. To try and see how it goes. Confirmed Monday, scheduled for next Thursday. I made comment about the time in between (since I'd canceled this Thursday for today), how I would do my best to sit with any feelings. T: "You know my e-mail policy." Me: "But I worry I've already abused it." T: "It hasn't changed, it's just if it's anything over 15 minutes, then a charge." Me: "OK, just worry because of ex-T and ex-MC. But I guess you'd let me know if a problem, right?" T: "Yes." He said credit card machine wasn't working, so I could pay next time.

Shook hands (forget what he said during). T: "Feel free to check in later this week to let me know how you're doing." Me: "OK, I'll try not to, but good to know I can." T: "Take care." Me: "You too."

It's hard for me to explain how it felt in the room during that hour. There was a sort of rawness to the whole session, which I'm not sure I can convey accurately in words. I hadn't really felt that in there before. It felt...real. Or maybe to use his word, honest.

LT, That sounds like a really difficult session but an important and insightful one.

i actually think this was a pretty good session, LT. He definitely is more "blunt," but I think his honesty might help you work through this. My T has tried pointing out the way I react to things might be from a different perspective than I think. Maybe that is what he is trying to say.

Hugs LT

I think it was a really good session. I haven't spoken up earlier because it seems my opinion wouldn't be popular on here but I could just see you heading down the same rabbit hole that you did with MC. You appear to have a very consistent pattern with relationships and transference and having a difficult time just sitting with your feelings (like looking for external validation). I have been through all of that - and I am so much better (and happier) now - so I'm not judging. I've been where you are at.

I actually really like this T and I think he is good for you. Good luck.

My therapy session was rather exhausting. Not physically but emotionally It started with a questionaire how I was doing. Those questions reminded me of my major depression. What a way to start a session. I talked about my state's primary and how anxious I was that the people I wanted to win that it was far from certain they would win.

From reading your posts I too felt that he was focusing far too much on HOW HE FELT about the things you shared I'm glad he acknowledges this! That is not what a therapist is meant to do IMO. It is not about his feelings is meant to give you the space to share yours in a safe environment (I would also go as so far as to say also without judgment). Can I ask what is his main theoretical orientation out of curiosity?

The 'He is being brutally honest' line doesn't fly with me. The transference feelings you are feeling are as you mentioned likely based on past experiences. Telling you that he is being honest because he does not want you to repeat old patterns is not going to just make them go away. It just doesn't work like that. Do you think this brutal honesty will impact your ability to talk freely about these feelings in future?

Someone mentioned that you are repeating old patterns. Both of your previous T's were unable to help you with similar patterns. I would go so far as to suggest that they seemed to almost just fan the flames instead of trying to figure out what had started the fire by having somewhat loose and/or inconsistent boundaries amongst other things.

Yes, there is one possible scenario that you are using feelings for T's as a way to avoid dealing with other stuff and that is worth exploring but there is also another possible scenario whereby they ARE a big part of the stuff. Maybe just maybe they are both of these things!

I have transference for my T and have struggled to understand it. I have spent countless hours reading forums, blog posts and also read lots of books and research papers. As we see from this forum it is a VERY real thing that can cause so much damage if not dealt with properlyy. So many people on here have been significantly hurt by their T's who have dealt with it poorly. IMO it requires a very skilled therapist who is completely comfortable working with it. I would also go as far to say that it needs a T who has had first-hand experience of it themselves from when they went through their own therapy to really understand and appreciate it's complexity and intensity.

I am not here to pass judgment on your decision to stick with him a bit longer as it's not my place. Also, you are the one in the room and I really don't know the full extent of what it is really like for you so I am only basing my opinion here on limited information. Speaking of honesty though I will just say that I really do not like how your T is handling this although I am glad he is willing to look more at your childhood. I do have fears he is venturing into uncharted seas when you really need someone who knows what they are doing and is comfortable doing so and not learning on the fly.

I hope you don't take my post in any other way than in the vein it is meant and my hope for you not to see you get hurt again by another T. I am rooting for you and I really do hope he pulls through and helps you in the way you need. I also really do admire your bravery and strength and being so honest about your feelings with him it is something I need to work on myself.

LT, I too think what it sounds like a challenging but insightful session. He was honest. You were honest. I think he was real with you, even though it wasn't the kind of real you wanted.
I also think it was perfectly fine, even good for him to share about his feelings and how he is affected by you. I think therapy is the only place we could hope to get straightforward, honest, compassionate and sensitive feedback about things like that. I don't see he said anything at all that would warrant you leaving him.

This is all really good stuff on BOTH your sides, LT. I think you hit the nail on the head w/ explaining to him that you understood that transference feelings come from the past -- it sounds like he maybe didn't realize that and certainly didn't realize that you KNEW that yourself.

I maintain that it is 100% OK to work THROUGH transference feelings -- that avoiding transference isn't working THROUGH it, it's just ...avoidance... or ignoring it. I hope that he can take this realization (that transference can be a tool for exploring and processing the past via "here and now" feelings -- btw, feel free to mention Yalom's "The Gift of Therapy" to him -- I'd suggest you read first it as well, because it sounds like he subscribes to at least SOME Yalom-y stuff such as "let the client matter to you/let the client affect you").

Also, DING DING DING DING RE:therapeutic relationship acting as a model for real relationships! Sounds like he didn't think you understood that.

I'm working backwards, but I also wanted to reflect back that your convo about him telling you how you affect him is 100% the same convo I had with C early in our therapy. And it was hard for me to hear -- I was AFRAID of affecting him, because if I could affect him, then that meant he wasn't the big, strong, invincible father figure I wanted to imagine him to be. Andplusalso bc I was so used to S's stoic "I can handle absolutely anything/anything you say to me won't hurt me or change how I feel about you or how I act towards you" stance.... which, btw, was a lie, because S was still human and, therefore, I could, indeed, affect him.

HUGS

An intense but really good session, LT
I'm glad he reinforced that his email policy hasn't changed and you are allowed and even encouraged to use it.

You have to do what is best for you and we'll be here either way.

Thanks for all the comments and support and for heeding my request. Will respond more later.

What can I say? It seemed to go okay but I still feel massively disconnected from him. I can't figure it out and it is making me very uncomfortable. I'm going to have an extra session with him on Friday morning.

Is there something you're not telling him?

That's usually where my sense of disconnection comes from.

I think the rule of thumb for feelings in t - in how i do therapy, and how i recommend everybody do it if they want to be happy like me (freakin lawyers) - is kinda like this: if a client is talking about something terrible that happened to the client, then no you dont have to worry about the ts feelings, like you might have to with a relative or a friend.

But, if a client is talking about something they perceived the t as doing, and there could be transference involved that is clouding the clients judgment - and by transference i mean classic transference, not eroticized transference - then the client should use this as a learning opportunity in how to deal with uncomfortable, close situations, dealing with another persons feelings. Because a large part of why things may be uncomfortable is the clients past; the ts presence is interchangeable. Again, assuming a competent t. A good enough t.

I don't want to be happy like anyone else ( silly lay people). I like my own way of being happy.
And I don't think therapists have feelings like real people when they are acting as therapists. They might (or not) in real life - but not while doing therapy at clients.

Lol - you know i just said that to make you happy!

The thing about ts feelings - actually i agree with you. I only meant that the client should for the clients own sake act as if they exist and matter. As if the t were a human being. Because - speaking for myself - its the only chance i got that someone would respond attentively and instructively, which was my reason for doing t. To learn to be an interactive human. To get an emotion chip, as lt cmdr Data might put it, on Star Trek TNG.

It feels more like there's something he's not telling me :/

The next big mental health thing on my horizon is a meeting with HR at work (and it seems everyone's cousin) about reasonable accommodations for a faculty member in academia. I willing to cancel this meeting since they basically already said no and the guest list keeps growing. Okay - so how many people need to be there when I disclose a confidential matter??

So in session today we talked about this upcoming meeting and that yes we would be keeping the meeting. T is more interested than me, although I could possibly be fleeing in fear! When I think about this meeting independently, I see no point. When I talk about it with t, I see the value.

As she talked about the meeting it occurred to me that she is going into this meeting as a advocate. I'm shocked that a t can be an advocate, and I'm shocked by my shocked reaction.

This really feels different, like she is actively helping. Like, one thing I struggle with is being able to call in sick when I am in bed depressed. She asked if it would be easier if I emailed her and she emailed my chair. That's being involved! But the issue isn't with me sending one email to my chair - it's that these things take coordination and multiple emails and that can easily become too much when I am barely surviving life.

I told her that it is helpful when I am doing poorly and she tells me to take a day off, like in some sense I am being given permission. What I need to do is get the courage to talk about what I really needed this past crash was more contact with her - that if she had no openings, could I just call? Of course that conversation feels like scaling Mt Everest.

The big question at this point is where do she and I sit in relation to each other in the room. Generally I hate being too physically close to anyone, and I cannot look at her in session. Now the question is - does she sit next to me or across the room. I feel like sitting next to me would offer more support. But it also feels too close. But there are definitely folks coming to this meeting next week who make me even more anxious. And then she said we could walk back to my office or where ever I am going to make sure I am okay after the meeting.

This is all so much to process.

my last session ever will be friday.

Good for you LT for putting it all out there, and being willing to hear what he had to say. It sounds like a tough but productive session. I think it's great that he his honest a out where he stands in this, so you don't have an MC situation to have to go through again. I would always choose to know honestly what my therapist is thinking as we go along then all of a sudden it's not okay. Excellent work on your end!

I just had a call with S (exT) and need to do a huge brain dump of everything I just found out...

1. S is leaving the practice where he is working and opening his own practice again. He has decided forensic psych isn't his thing.

2. He's staying where he is across the country.

3. His mom is probably leaving here and moving out there with him.

4. He's in a relationship.

5. I told him about the parts work, and he actually says he does think OSDD fits me & he believes me about having parts.

6. I told him some traumatic memories (well, not details, but some info on them...) that I haven't told anyone about yet.

Now I need to cry long and hard....

My heart is all smashed. And he STILL GETS ME so much he KNEW... he just knew... he was like "Hey TMC. I know you. I know you really well, and I know what you're doing right now. TMC, I need you to calm down for me. I'm not cutting all ties to your area, I will still see you again..."

I'm such a mixed bag of emotions right now.

I'm heartbroken that after all that I lost with him leaving, he's now not even going to be doing the thing he went there to do (forensic psych) and will just be setting up a practice there...

I'm heartbroken that he BELIEVES in my parts but I'm not finding this out til now when I'm not working with him anymore.

I'm heartbroken that his mom is moving there, because now the little shred of hope I had that he'd ever come back here is gone.

I'm heartbroken because we both said we loved one another, and I do...and it HURTS to love him and not have him here.

His dating someone is just kind of one of those things I was always going to feel sting-y about (fear of being replaced, and, let's be honest, my feelings for him aren't exactly platonic).

I'm just really... I shouldn't have had that call probably... because I was really having a good day, and now I hurt.

Hugs, TMC...that sounds really painful. When do you see your current T again?

Tomorrow
I also emailed him
Feel like I've been disloyal to him by having so much longing for S

LT, kudos to you for living through such a raw session and being brave enough to try something different (re sticking with this T despite how you're feeling). I still like your T and am glad you're sticking with him.

Blondie got rather persistent about trying to get me to do a session this Friday (that'll be 3x this week) since I'm having a procedure tomorrow.

I told her I may still be in the hospital on Friday but she seemed to think it perfectly normal that I'd want to talk to her bright and early in the am for a full-on therapy session from the hospital bed (after basically not having had anything to eat or drink, including water, the previous day).

I guess we were both flummoxed about the other being flummoxed at the sheer absurdity (in my case) or the lack thereof (hers) of the idea.

That's after I told her I won't be able to drive for the next couple of days -- to which she said I could cab it (except she's a good 30 miles away).

Then when I said I'll let her know if I can cab it to a later afternoon slot she offered, she said she'd have to pick up her kids and so, it'll be a 30-min session or she could talk to me on the phone while she's going to pick up her kids -- the last time I talked to her on the phone, she was driving as well and was spaced out as heck.

She said she'd make sure to keep both the slots open until I let her know which one I want and I told her that's rather generous and she doesn't have to do it (she's pretty booked up Fridays) but she said it's the thing to do (not sure why but I figure I don't need to question it more).

All this after she hemmed and hawed and tripped over the words in responding to my current favorite topic of kicking the bucket.

I'm considering asking her though if there's anywhere in this list at all that therapists will not think either themselves or their clients capable of being in session --
1. Spaceship
2. Submarine
3. Top of Mt. Etna
4. The loo
5. Tennis court
6. Etc

Last I heard, the top of Mount Etna is now off limits after some tourist fell through a lava crust with the expected results.

AY, here’s a very useful word for dealing with family and Blondies: “N-O. No. I will see you x.”

Why are you, who is having a procedure tomorrow, bending over backwards to accommodate this nitwit who has a frightening inability to empathize with the sick and the non-American? And who is so egotistical she thinks that a session with her is just what the doctor ordered after a hospital stay?

Ignore me, I’m not a Blondie fan. But best wishes for tomorrow.