[LonesomeTonight]

I'll eventually write up the whole session, but one of the things he said that came up during consultation is that it occurred to him--Why did he have to explain why it made him uncomfortable? Why wasn't that enough? I had trouble figuring out how to respond to that...

[fille_folle]

I think T's are lying if they say they can keep their feelings out of it. I mean, they're just people. Imperfect, fallible, etc. I also think it's bs to say that's what they are paid for. It might sound nice, but doesn't really make sense. I also wouldn't really want a therapist who was a complete automaton, personally.

I think the fact that it made him uncomfortable is "enough," but at the same time, I understand why you wanted to know why. I think it's another one of those instances where you wanted reassurance that something was ok, or that it wasn't to do with you personally.

I'm sorry to hear that the session was so hurtful that it has you contemplating termination again. I hope you will stick with it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by fille_folle

I think T's are lying if they say they can keep their feelings out of it. I mean, they're just people. Imperfect, fallible, etc. I also think it's bs to say that's what they are paid for. It might sound nice, but doesn't really make sense. I also wouldn't really want a therapist who was a complete automaton, personally.

I think the fact that it made him uncomfortable is "enough," but at the same time, I understand why you wanted to know why. I think it's another one of those instances where you wanted reassurance that something was ok, or that it wasn't to do with you personally.

I'm sorry to hear that the session was so hurtful that it has you contemplating termination again. I hope you will stick with it.

Thanks, FF. I wouldn't want an automaton either, but I feel current T puts his feelings into it too much.

I assume you meant you hope I stick with therapy with him--but maybe you meant you hope I stick with termination?

I feel like I must be so frustrating to him, like he's probably reading my e-mail going "Oh FFS, now I have to deal with LT and our relationship again.)

[stopdog]

They can have whatever feelings they want - but the client does not need to care about them. To me, that is what I was paying for - the woman to stay back and keep her feelings to herself. With real people - their feelings do matter - with a therapist - they do not.

[fille_folle]

I meant stick with him - and maybe he expected an email after a return to the stone topic? I mean, depending on how upset you got in session, I guess.

[fille_folle]

Thank you for that tidbit on what you were paying the woman for, SD. Not being snarky. I have wondered!

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'm not sure I can convince T that his feelings aren't supposed to be a part of it...but I was under the impression that part of why I pay him is to keep his feelings out of it? At least that's what ex-T and ex-MC suggested.

Yeah...but ex-T and ex-MC didn't keep their feelings out of it either, did they?

[DP_2017]

I agree that they can't completely keep feelings out of it.

Lt

Maybe before terminating just go weekly once instead of 2x. Give yourself some space and time to really ponder

We can all suggest but end of day it's your call. Maybe terminating is right. Maybe not. Only you know. It sucks but as we have pointed out before he's clearly uncomfortable with the deep attachment in some ways like the stone and sadly pushing it wont change his feelings. You gotta find a way to both deal with it that works.

At this point what does the stone really mean to you? It's kinda like how my t refused touch. It hurt. I felt rejected and ready to terminate too. In time though I just let it go and respected his wishes and focused on other things. I knew no matter how much I wanted it he wasn't gonna give in
Sucks but it happens. Hope this isn't too harsh. I support whatever choice you make but like I said its only one you can make. Take some good time to really reflect this weekend

[LonesomeTonight]

He just sent a rather kind e-mail response...yet at the same time, I feel somewhat criticized in it? Also offered me session tomorrow afternoon, debating that...

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'll eventually write up the whole session, but one of the things he said that came up during consultation is that it occurred to him--Why did he have to explain why it made him uncomfortable? Why wasn't that enough? I had trouble figuring out how to respond to that...

"Why do I have to explain why I need to know? Why isn't enough that I asked?"

P.S.: More constructively, "I'll try to answer your question if you try to answer mine."

[DP_2017]

I'd hold off until Monday. A third one will only add to this mess
Give it some time. It's only 3 days until Monday and good time to step back and reflect
Don't push yourself too much. I'd decline

If you do go...realize why you are going. Don't go just to see him again or to keep talking about the stone. Only go if you truly feel there's no way you can make it until Monday. I believe you can though. You're strong.

[fille_folle]

Do you FEEL criticized or did he actually criticize you? Or do you feel criticized because he insinuated something? Sorry, being super nosy.

[fille_folle]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

"Why do I have to explain why I need to know? Why isn't enough that I asked?"

Boundaries.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by fille_folle

Boundaries.

Or barriers.

[fille_folle]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Or barriers.

In what way?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Yeah...but ex-T and ex-MC didn't keep their feelings out of it either, did they?

Good point. At least ex-T admitted it at one point, saying she'd gotten too close to me to be objective. Ex-MC clearly had feelings affecting things at times, but would never admit it... Which is part of why I found this T to be more refreshing, but at times his feelings are too much in the forefront.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by fille_folle

I meant stick with him - and maybe he expected an email after a return to the stone topic? I mean, depending on how upset you got in session, I guess.

It's funny, I wasn't emotional in session at all today. But I think maybe I was trying really hard not to react too much, like I realized I was sitting differently than I normally do. More guarded, in a way. But I don't know that he picked up on that. So he was likely surprised by the e-mail, at least based on his response.

[LonesomeTonight]

I suppose I'm doing things out of order, but it takes time to type up a session, but no time to copy/paste e-mails, so here you go! Session to come later. Note that the "magic button" does reference something from session--kind of like the Staples red "Easy" button but for getting rid of anxious thoughts.

Me:
Hi Dr. T,
I wish I hadn't asked about the consulting session. I know I seemed OK in session, but I feel really awful right now. I just feel like a pathetic, needy person with really screwed up boundaries. Like a total weirdo. I had this thought that maybe your talking about it with them would give you a better understanding of where I was coming from, but it seems they just reinforced your feelings that I was crossing some line, asking too much of you, and inappropriately pushing you to explain why it made you uncomfortable. I just feel really bad about myself right now.

I wish I wasn't like this, all needy and obsessive and whatever. I wish there was some magic button. But there's not. And that's why I'm in therapy, to work through all that. I guess I just felt kind of shamed again today...even though I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

I'm not sure what I'm expecting you to say. I just feel defective, and also rather hopeless, and I need to not feel that way..."

T (a few hours later):
"Goodness, [LT] - I'm so sorry that you're feeling so badly! You are being very hard on yourself, and taking a very self-critical and overly negative line of thinking. Everyone has things to work on and areas that need improvement, and for you one of those areas is with boundaries. Hopefully you can appreciate that this was not a very significant boundary to cross - to the point where I'm not even sure of how to effectively articulate how or in what way my feelings make rational sense! I appreciate your willingness to have returned the stone, and I'm sorry that the process has ended up feeling shameful. I don't see you as any of the negative words you called yourself in your email.

If you want to talk sooner, I have an opening tomorrow, Friday, in the afternoon."

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'll eventually write up the whole session, but one of the things he said that came up during consultation is that it occurred to him--Why did he have to explain why it made him uncomfortable? Why wasn't that enough? I had trouble figuring out how to respond to that...

It is hard to learn from that! The whole point of therapy is to be a laboratory in which to practice, a theater in the sense of "as if it is real" from which you then step away and analyze, brainstorm, collaborate.


No means no is very weak LT's T

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Good point. At least ex-T admitted it at one point, saying she'd gotten too close to me to be objective. Ex-MC clearly had feelings affecting things at times, but would never admit it... Which is part of why I found this T to be more refreshing, but at times his feelings are too much in the forefront.

I guess what I’m curious about is do you mean feelings in general, the way SD does when she says she wants therapists to keep their feelings out of it, or do you mean feelings that seem (but maybe aren’t) negative or judgmental about you, like his discomfort over the stone?

Because the second—discomfort—seems to be a pattern with him with clients, like the one that stole a stone from his office and then the one who told him she wanted to rip his clothes off.

[SalingerEsme]

He is probably in the same consulting group as my T. I want to point out the caring that comes through offering the session, reinforcing coming to see him. He wants the caring to be his way, not your way, not the ays of other T's who practice with a dfferent theory. He is kind of saying, I am right here for you, I am comfortable meeting in my office with you here are open arms, but no stone! I get upset bc I feel like hey here is a male T making the rules for a shared relationship. There is a theory that women tend and befriend under pressure, and patriarchal therapy discounts that in favor of independence and differentiation.

Originally Posted by fille_folle

I think T's are lying if they say they can keep their feelings out of it. I mean, they're just people. Imperfect, fallible, etc. I also think it's bs to say that's what they are paid for. It might sound nice, but doesn't really make sense. .

Yes, today I read a trauma book Wisdom Love and Attachment in Trauma Therapy- the theory is pretty pie- in- the- sky in contrast to how day in day out life plays out in all-too human hands.




It did help me have the best session bc it explained cool aloof T's can be valuable to sensitive souls bc while they dont reassure and give love, they can withstand alot more trauma processing than other types( that's my T); the other type, the warm intuitive T senstive soul ADORE and they return that , but have forshortened careers at times and also sometimes dont hold the space bc they get too empathetic


Lt's T seems more like mine, rock-solid( even though he emails) but not seeing his role being all that empathetic. I might be wrong. I cares, he is there, he is probably very bombproof, but he just isnt going to imagine his way too far into interpersonally messy discussion. My T is not interested in talking about the relationship unless there is a big problem- then he will to solve MY problem .

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I guess what I’m curious about is do you mean feelings in general, the way SD does when she says she wants therapists to keep their feelings out of it, or do you mean feelings that seem (but maybe aren’t) negative or judgmental about you, like his discomfort over the stone?

Because the second—discomfort—seems to be a pattern with him with clients, like the one that stole a stone from his office and then the one who told him she wanted to rip his clothes off.

Hm, not necessarily negative/judgmental. Like with ex-T, I think it was more maternal/caring stuff, but that also interfered with the relationship. Like she suddenly was suggesting I go into the hospital, when I didn't think I was doing so badly. When I questioned her about it next session, she said she'd gotten too close and thought maybe she wasn't being objective anymore.

With ex-MC...I think more positive paternal transference (maybe something else?) played into the relationship and complicated things, made him blur boundaries. But then he tried to put the blame on me--I guess he took a bit of responsibility, but he was also gaslighting me through that (like "oh, we didn't talk on the phone that often" and "I was clear with boundaries in session").

I feel like with current T, he's threatened by clients who want to get too close to him, whether sexually or platonically or whatever. And he's also said that it's not OK for clients to share all their feelings with him, like if they're belittling him, etc. I mean, I can understand the threatening him part. But he even said he'd have issues if a client shared a dream where they wanted to hurt him (apparently sexual dreams are OK to share, since that's what I thought he was driving at when he said some dreams aren't OK to share). And then beyond all this, there's his whole, "You affect me, LT," which I'm still trying to process and understand. Like he's saying just in general things that I say and do affect him (beyond, say, threats or sexual innuendos).

I don't think I really answered your question, just trying to figure it out...

[SalingerEsme]

I think that besides your own therapy, you have intellectual curiosity about therapy in general. You are my psyychologist friend's dream client). It seems like you T welcomes you, your story and journey, but doesnt want you in his metal space, up in the pilot's compartment? I wonder if the boundaries are the whole story, or that you brought in a theory.

[emeraldheart]

I always like reading your posts because they are so comprehensive and honest. This being my first time in therapy, I always strive to be braver and more authentic, and part of how I do that is by reading you posts.

I don’t know if your T is good for you or not, but I just wanted to offer an outsiders perspective. I’m not really the type to seek out reassurance from my T. I’m generally okay with his bluntness and honesty.

But basing on your posts describing your T and your sessions, if he were my T, I could totally see myself asking a LOT of reassuraanxe from him because I would often be confused by his words and actions.

I guess what I am saying is, I think we (we as in me and my impression of you) have different attachment styles, personalities, etc, but your reactions to him make perfect sense to me and I can see myself reacting the same way, if that makes sense.

[ruh roh]

I don't know what to make of any of this, LT. This is really confusing. If a therapist asked me why they should tell me why I made them uncomfortable, I would have said because I don't want to mind read and if there's something about me that they find uncomfortable, I want to understand that for my own mental well being--to be able to tell if it's their issue or mine or something else. It's like being shunned on the playground, where you just want to know why it's happening Why are those other kids being rejecting? Maybe they're jerks or maybe I had toilet paper stuck to my shoes. Information is important. Why would a therapist want to withhold insight?